CurtisD

Of course we shouldn’t feel ashamed. What rubbish! It is not standard issue, but many things are not standard issue and conforming to other people’s norms is tiresome and limiting. What matters is the same thing that matters in any connection with another person – is it honest, transparent, non-exploitative, respectful, caring, an equal exchange? If it is not these things, then possibly we should be ashamed of ourselves. If it is these things for both parties, then it is a good thing. Many of my friends and family know about my relationship with Bangkok Guy. The initial reaction might be cautious, but after talking with him over Line, hearing me speak of him and seeing his photo around the house, its is accepted and now they ask about him. After seeing that it is a real friendship, they are fine. I think people react to the vibe that is given off. They might stare initially because Spring/Autumn is not the norm, but once they see a friendship they are fine and they put away their judgmental faculties. The same question can be put to the Spring part of the equation. I asked Bangkok Guy what people thought about him having an old Falang boyfriend. His first reaction was ‘you not old’, a nice piece of loyalty for which I thanked him and put aside. Then came the awkward body language indicating that there was something negative, because as he does not voice negative things it comes out as body language, and ‘I make my own decisions’. So clearly not everyone in his circle thinks our relationship is a good thing. He wants an older Falang boyfriend. He told me he had asked Buddha for one. ‘So Buddha lead me to you?’ “Yes” ‘I need to go to temple and talk to Buddha’, at which he looked alarmed until I continued ‘I need to say thank you’ which brought a big smile. It came out that one of the things he prays for at temple is that I will love him, which led to a penny dropping. Last time I asked him what he wanted for his birthday we went through the usual cycle from plain silly, because he likes pulling my chain (“Apartment building, that one there, is small, you can buy”. It was not small), through aspirational to see if I will bite (“Motorbike’, no I am too poor), to what he really wants “You give me money to go temple save cow”. Saving cow “Is for Lucky”. I am afraid that the contrast between ‘motorbike’ and ‘save cow’ struck me as so wide that I almost fell off the bed trying not to laugh, while he watched tolerantly because sometimes with Falang that is all you can do. The dropping penny was ‘When you save cow, what you pray for?’ A wickedly mischievous grin and with great conviction “Now you love me Long Time”. I don’t think he is ashamed, and neither am I.

We stayed at the Santhiya Tree Koh Chang Resort and can recommend it. Long beach with lots of alternatives for dining or a drink. All very relaxed. Even went to the local fair and Morlam concert. Nothing gay beyond the two of us, although we were not looking so may have missed it. Don't remember sighting any Russians. We pre-booked transport to and from the airport through Ian-on-Koh-Chang and in addition to making life easy it also meant we caught the ferry we needed to catch the return flight. The que of cars backed up for miles and our driver just drove past them all to a separate 'first boarding' que.

Yes, you have hit the nail on the head. 😆

I am continuing this thread, but the turn of the discussion might better fit under ‘Can we ever understand the Thais?’ After some time back in Bangkok it is clear that the issue with the apartment is a little bit Chinese, but a lot more family. Getting that clarity has been an entertainingly circular process because of Bangkok Guy’s indirectness and his chronic inability to work out his priorities and make quick decisions. It is just as well that I like him and accept the non-linear nature of his decision making, so that I find the process of discovering what he is actually thinking entertaining. First day back we spent a couple of hours looking at apartments on-line and it seemed to me the process was going in circles. Bangkok Guy was just not consistent in what he seemed to want. So out with the spreadsheet to tabulate what we both prioritized in an apartment. The obvious difference is that I prioritize the amenities – swimming pool, meeting room – and he doesn’t, and I am very flexible on location while he wants an apartment along a defined but longish stretch of the metro because he has friends in the area. The less obvious bit was the permissible Chinese representation and the size/# of bedrooms. It was soon clear that while a high Chinese representation was not desirable, the Chinese presence was not the real issue. Apartment size trumped Chinese and apartments in older buildings were larger and so more desirable than smaller apartments in newer buildings with more amenities. Then the first brick dropped. Bangkok Guy’s mother is moving back to Issan and his sister needs somewhere to stay. It is his responsibility to make sure she has somewhere and to keep an eye on her. “I not have choice”. Ok, but then we need two bedrooms, which fits into the budget, so no problem. Well a bit of one as I would prefer just the two of us, but his sister is pleasant and he feels responsible. ‘Not need two bedrooms, sister can sleep in living room. Two bed too expensive. Just need larger apartment’. No, we need two bedrooms. I’m not walking around your sister and I need a space to work. I pointed to one of the apartments that he had first shown me – modern building, all the amenities I want and two bedrooms within budget – this one works. But somehow now it didn’t work, older buildings with large 1 bedroom apartments were inexplicably better, so we left it in illogical suspension for a day. When I don’t understand something with Bangkok Guy, give it some time and the fog usually clears. At the end of a day in Silom/Sathorn for shopping and dining and jazz Bangkok Guy announced that I needed to live in Sathorn. “It where shopping and restaurants and jazz is, you like. And White People live (he always uses White People, not Falang to refer to Europeans)”. But what about you, it is not the area you want, it is long way from friends? ‘I take metro’. “Also is too far from (sister’s) university. She can have own apartment near university and we live Sathorn” But don’t you have to supervise her? Some squirming body language from Bangkok Guy. I need you to be happy, can’t get new apartment and then you worry about sister and want to change again. Finding accommodation for sister make you happy? “Yes” Have sister live with us make you happy? A guilty look and “Happy but only a little bit” Ok, so we can get two apartments, one for your sister and one for us, or we can get one apartment with two bedrooms. Cost same, you choose (It does cost the same but our apartment is much better than sister’s). “Cannot choose, you have to choose”. And the second brick drops. Bangkok Guy wants it to be just the two of us, but he can’t conscientiously make that decision. But if I, a White Person, need to live in Sathorn with other White People, then that is too far from university and it becomes logical for sister to have her own apartment. She has been housed, but not chaperoned, for reasons outside of his control. Coincidentally Sathorn has a stock of older larger 1 bedroom apartments, who knew? In a non-linear, indirect and indecisive way Bangkok Guy had been building his way to this solution. He is now happily looking for apartments in Sathorn, nest building for his preferred number, 2. His sister is a solidly sensible young woman, who happens to like other women, and so probably does not need a chaperone.

Thanks, this explains a lot.

@Londoner Can you explain 'gatanyuu'? A Google search only brings up a comic character.

Bangkok Guy has a good ear for accents. On our first walk-through of the building he enjoyed telling me "this person China, this person Singapore, etc" and by the number of "this person China" it was clear the building was majority Chinese, which at the time did not phase him. However, at the time he had not experienced being a minority. He looked so guilty admitting that he wanted to move to a new building that I had to agree that he can look for alternatives to show me when I am next in Bangkok. It is a shame as the building has fantastic facilities, I really like it, but fantastic facilities are nothing if Bangkok Guy is unhappy there.

Your experience reminds me of two two long ago trips of mine. The first was to China in the 1970s when group travel was still required. It was a great experience with one exception. Walking down old narrow streets I became mildly paranoid about the sound of vigorous throat clearing from high above that was the prelude to the flight of a descending gob of phlegm. On the flight home the front two rows were occupied by a group of officials in Mao suits from whose ranks emanated the sound of a vigorous throat clearing - my burst of laughter overtook me so suddenly that my own nasal passages got a good rinse out with champagne. The second was a trip to Japan followed by HK in the 1980s. Crawling through HK in a cab from old Kai Tak airport to my hotel surrounded by the bustling, sweating and yelling throng I felt that I was back among 'real people' after the politeness and neatness of Japan.

Bangkok Guy and I took an apartment together this year and it has worked very well, until now. It came about as he planned to move to a larger apartment close to transport and I am now in Bangkok much more frequently so that an apartment makes financial sense versus hotels. So we combined plans and looked for an apartment that suited us both - higher-end for me and location for him. Looking at options in his preferred area we selected an apartment in a new building with fantastic amenities (required by me not by him, but enjoyed by him all the same) that was over twice as much as he had planned to pay but still a good deal for me compared to a hotel. All has been well until about a month ago when I asked on a web call how the apartment was and got some awkward body language. All was not well in paradise. The new Chinese neighbor was too noisy. A friend of his who speaks Chinese asked the neighbor if he could be quieter and the basic response was no, for various reasons. He would really like to change apartments. At first I thought he meant within the building, away from the noisy neighbor. But it turns out he wants to go to another building altogether, with Thai and Falang people not Chinese "This building so many Chinese". He has not gone into detail on what is wrong with 'so many Chinese' apart from a general comment that they talk loudly. The lack of a detailed complaint does not surprise me as I have never known him to go into detail if he does not like something, simply indicating dislike with a general reason is enough. He seems to feel that getting too explicitly negative is bad form. I am surprised as he has friends of different nationalities and his last building had Chinese tenants, maybe just not 'so many'. Since we have not yet been there a year we will loose the deposit, and given how frugal Bangkok Guy is even with my money he must really want out if he is prepared to do that. I have agreed that he can hunt for another apartment and I will look at what he has found when I am next in Bangkok. Hence my question - does anyone have any insight into how Thais view the Chinese? Bangkok Guy is generally very friendly, likes people and gets on well with them. He is sensitive to how polite people are - he was very impressed with how polite the Japanese were when we were in Japan - so all I can come up with is that he finds the Chinese en masse too rude to be in the middle of.

Since the financial crisis in 2008 we have been living through one of the most difficult investment environments in my life. Responding to the GFC the Fed, ECB and PBOC pumped out money and lowered interest rates, which saved the banks and the LBOs but made it very difficult for savers to earn a living income from low risk bonds. So people put more of their savings into higher risk assets. However, the lower interest rates and greater liquidity lead to asset valuations rising to speculative levels. Then, just as the Fed was beginning to gradually and judiciously unwind the situation we get clobbered over and over again by alternating waves of stupidity and misfortune. Trump begins it by disrupting trade, leading to higher prices which risk higher inflation expectations. Then Trump cuts taxes pro-cyclically, pumping more liquidity into the system when the Fed is trying to reduce it. When you are sitting on the largest stock of base money as a % of GDP since the financing of WWII, you do not do things which might awaken inflation expectations. Then Covid hits and (i) sends prices higher by disrupting supply chains and normal demand patterns and (ii) causes the Fed, the ECB and the PBOC to pump even more liquidity in and lower interest rates to close to 0. US base money, already at the highest % of GDP since the financing of WWI goes stratospheric. It is no longer possible to live off the yield on less risky bonds and asset valuations climb again. Finally, the combination of massive liquidity, zero rates and rising prices from supply chain disruptions wake inflation from its thirty years of slumber and the Fed, the ECB and the PBOC, staring at the specter of inflation 1970s style, jam the brakes on and begin what turns out to be the most rapid rise in interest rates-relative-to-the-starting-point seen in anyone’s lifetime. Investors get whipsawed as the value of both bonds and equities falls. But that’s not all folks! It turns out that V. Putin has a Dream of Legacy so moronic and out-of-step with reality that it beggars belief. And also beggars us as it adds further supply chain disruptions and an oil price shock. Now inflation is out of bed and at the bar knocking back the bourbon. People get another whipsawing as rates rise and consumer prices accelerate away from earnings. Right now I have no idea where to invest. The valuation of equities is still high – the P/E ratio of the S&P is around 25 versus an historical average of 16 – and inflation and further rate increases are still a risk. My only solution is to (i) work more and (ii) spend less. Spending much less and saving much more. I have seen genteel poverty. To escape its death-by-one-thousand-cuts-of-dreariness-and-embarrassment much older friends here recently downsized to Florida. I want no part of it. I told Bangkok Guy I need to make more money to retire. His very sincere response was ‘Not problem, when you no make money anymore I work and make money for us’. He is very sweet and sincere. I am lucky to be in caring hands. Alas, those hands are not capable of making enough to cover my martini bill, LOL. Mine own hands need to get busy.

I wish you and your friend the best. I know I don't need to remind you to only commit funds that you can spare.

The last year has flown by with no time to put pen to paper, but also less inclination as Bangkok Guy and I have begun to fit into a routine in each other’s lives. Business brings me to the region more frequently and Bangkok Guy now joins me for the weekend wherever I am. We have also enjoyed a couple of longer trips to Thai islands and to Japan. Tokyo, it turns out, is not just shopping, although he did a lot of that, finding great deals on clothing. Bangkok Guy has wanted to live in Japan since he was a child. It has both natural beauty and Tokyo. It is clean, it is efficient, he likes the food and the people are polite. The hotel staff bowed to him which made a big impression. It ticks all his boxes. He had a blast. We will return. However, this note is not a travelog. Rather, it is an observation on some of the realities, particularly the financial realities, of a relationship begun in a bar. The short term reality is that, for very logical reasons, a relationship is a lot more expensive than bar hopping. Like every other bar guy Bangkok Guy worked in a bar to meet financial needs. As he straightforwardly puts it ‘I am poor person’. Over the years I have known him I have come to understand how difficult it is for him to maintain a steady income, let alone to grow his income. He is economical and careful with money, including my money. I visited his apartment, a studio in a well kept building in a less convenient location distant from public transport. Clean, tidy, crammed in an orderly manner with his market stock. Microwave, hot plate, modest sized TV, shrine. Nothing expensive or flashy. When I first agreed to give him an allowance we made a spreadsheet of all his expenses and his income. He was at best breaking even and, given down time for bad weather, more likely net negative. Initially the allowance covered half his expenses. During covid the unstable nature of his income became very obvious, so I increased the allowance to cover all his expenses. However, given the Thai family structure, his responsibilities extend beyond just looking after himself. Since his father left he is responsible for his mother and younger sister, particularly his sister. This puts huge pressure on him, which he does not like to bring to me but he has no other solution. So I have agreed to cover some of these family responsibilities. I have seen enough documentation that I am pretty sure that the money goes where I think it goes. Also, after six years, I trust Bangkok Guy. An allowance which was originally a little more than I would spend in the bars during a couple of trips each year is now about three to four times that amount. Not an amount that will cripple me, but now enough to notice. Despite the greater expense, I get more out of spending the money this way. Helping Bangkok Guy makes me happy. The long term financial reality is the same as that for any relationship where the financial gap between the partners is large. To retire and maintain my lifestyle with Bangkok Guy will be more expensive than doing it solo. For starters I intend to travel a lot and I will need the resources to cover travel for two. More enjoyable, but more expensive. Bangkok Guy and my goal is to be living together in three years’ time. I need those three years to improve my finances so that I can have my cake and eat it too. To be with Bangkok Guy with no diminution of lifestyle. It’s good for me. I now have a lot of motivation as I head down the final stretch.

They were, but a lot of it is the exchange rate. Using @thaiophilus 's numbers, the chart shows the number of Chang beers you could buy for the cost of a Soho pint. Currently it is 1.75 but in the past it has been as high as 3.25. This doesn't account for any change in the local currency cost of beer, which may make the difference even larger.

Similar case to @floridarob , when I was in my teens an elderly and very glamorous friend of my parents told me that the only regrets in life are the things you didn't do. She appeared to have it all, still stylish approaching 80, in demand at social events, wealth. She had never married because the man she loved had not been good enough for her in her family's eyes and unable to marry the man she wanted without being cut off from the family money, she devoted her life to being an ornament on the social circuit. As she approached 80 it was a decision she very much regretted. Her advice to me was very clear: you have one shot at life, live it for who you are and want to be, don't live it to conform to the expectations of others. Buying a condo in Pattaya suggests to me that you have attempted to start a new life. Why not make a second attempt? Buy a condo somewhere else, away from you new 'hetro friends', and start over with a plan, a clearer vision and determination of who you want to be, who you want your friends to be and what you want to experience in the next phase of your life.

I agree. If I were able and willing to relocate to Thailand it would a different ball game and I think the chances of a relationship would be much better.