Londoner

The problems arise when unreasonable expectations are aroused. Some falangs and some Thais-particularly those new to the scene- expect too much from a commercial assignations. It's best to be honest.

Are you referring to encounters in the sauna or to LTRs and Wills? Or perhaps to the Thais say they who only have sex with falangs?

I've been in such a relationship for fifteen years and have no illusions but I learnt a lesson a few years ago when a Pattaya ex-pat, whom I'd known for many years, died. I had regarded his long-term partner as a gold-digger....straight, mercenary, too fond of the whiskey and not even honest. I believed him to be waiting for my friend's demise in the knowledge that he was the sole recipient of the Will. But then it became apparent that there was no money left; it had been spent on medical treatment fees (and much else) after the medical insurance ran-out. The last few months were spent in a public ward in a Pattaya hospital; the partner stayed loyal, right to the end.

That's true....and the older they are, the sooner they'll reap the rewards of the partner's Will. Nevertheless, this does not pertain to what we experience in saunas; that's fun and fun alone. There are a number of mbs I've met over the years, by the way, who insist that they've never had sex with a Thai but identify (and perform) as gay.

Do you think he'd enjoy a couple of hours in Babylon? with other Thais of his age perhaps? or with falangs? Why not ask him? On the other hand, I've met young, cute Thai guys there who actually wanted sex with me....to my amazement. There are certainly some-even if they are a minority- who prefer sex with older falangs. It's even happened to me in London saunas. Very, very occasionally, sad to say. But these guys do exist, not just Thai but Asians from a number of countries.

The drivers tend to be from Isaan, like many of the other people we meet. Red-shirts to a man! And some, as you surmise, are struggling. One diver was telling me how he slept in his car. I was surprised but then recalled that a soi near Babylon is filled with taxis, resting, waiting and being repaired. It seems possible that some of the drivers sleep there.,

Nice was a vibrant place when I was there last month...it even had a few customers, though not as many as Winners. However, I have rarely seen such an ostentatiously straight collection of go go dancers in Thailand , and certainly not in Sunee. In the past , there have usually been a few gay dancers and even, on occasions, ladyboys, but not this time.

10.00 is early for most of the guys on the apps, particularly those who also work in bars so Travellerdave was fortunate.. 15.00 onwards seems to be the most active time.

. Gaybutton should look at today's offerings on his forum, particularly those that refer to "wild dogs" and the proposed use of razor wire. I assume that abidismali's outburst is satirical, mocking the ignorance and prejudices of illiterate red-necks. It certainly made me laugh. He's right; while we opponents of racism have such people as opponents, we cannot fail to win.

Vicious and cheap comment from Gaybutton.... sadly characteristic of someone obsessed by Arabs in Sunee. Comments about Afro-Americans and Jews are rightly considered inappropriate but somehow, anti-Arab prejudice seems acceptable for some.

An interesting discussion. I'd add another factor which makes Thailand a good choice. It relates to safety and confidence. As a regular in Thailand for more than twenty years, I feel entirely safe when offing and meeting via apps...confident that the authorities won't intervene in my pleasure and that the guy I meet, if treated appropriately, will not turn nasty or manipulative. I am happy to pay for this.

Thanks to traveller 123's recommendation, our stay at Agate was successful four weeks ago and there were certainly many more guys around in the evenings than in Boyztown or Sunee. The best-looking, in my view, were in the massage joints rather than the host bars.

The same as in Pattaya, 500 plus 1000 tip. And Christian is right about the taxis in Patong. They operate a cartel, charging a flat-rate 200 bht for even the shortest journey. The other taxis for journeys outside Patong are fine.

No Babylon? Many cute guys there four weeks ago, some of whom were interested in falangs.

None that I know of. I love the city...but I go there with my boyfriend. Have you tried the apps?

Thai Puan always used to distinguish itself from the other freebies available in BKK bars by avoiding advertising and even references to commercial sex establishments. Although it appears to have diverted from this policy in recent editions. I suspect that it may account for the absence of Sunee maps.

Thai standards and expectations of weight and height are very different to those prevalent in Europe and (particularly) the USA. And a good deal healthier, I may add. My all-Thai diet improves my blood/sugar levels by nearly 20% when I'm in Thailand.

Aquarius?

My perception is that you are more likely to meet twink masseurs in Phuket than in Pattaya, Bangkok or Chiang Mai where they seem to be less in evidence There are a number of places in the Paradise Complex and the guys often sit outside making your choice easier. Sorry....I don't recall their names but a walk around the Complex will reveal all. As to the standards, the last one I had was a disaster and the previous one (at a different place) excellent. So its the same old story; you can never be sure how an individual masseur will perform.

Here in Pattaya, a guy who has been giving me excellent massages for over twelve years has now given-up and moved to Chonburi take a job in a factory. That was the only way he could maintain his standard of living. I was in Bangkk three weeks ago, Jomtien last week and now I'm in Boyztown. Boyztown is by far the most quiet. I visited Sunee yesterday and that too was dispiritingly empty, though Nice and (particularly) Winners did have some punters.

The Agate is certainly quiet at the moment....and is a very pleasant place to stay. We've been most impressed. I'd be surprised if you found it less than quiet and relaxing.

I agree with much of the above but would add that, since the closure of Krazy and Krazy Dragon, both of which had large sins outside visible from Soi VC, the entrance to Sunee has been anything but welcoming. And so yes, the poor lighting is a factor. It was also a pity that the shisha bars were closed because they added to the bustle and vibrancy of the area. I often walk from Boyztown to Sunee, cutting through the Paradise Hotel Soi and my arrival at Sunee is heralded by darkness.

The most important advice I can give is ti try out the arrangement for 6/12 months in a rented apartment before selling-up. Our experiences on holidays- mindset, interests, finance- are very different to those of an ex-pat. And if you were to make a mistake, how easy would it be to pick up the pieces back home?

None at all, unless you believe that Thaksin's humanitarian and popular reforms to support the poor encouraged more young people to stay at home rather than come to Pattaya. There were already fewer guys around due to the effectiveness of birth control programmes in the preceding decades. However, my view is that the guys follow the falangs, not the other way around. It is we gay falangs who stopped coming to Thailand in such large numbers; and the Thais found other means to live in our absence..

300 bht, including a tip.