kokopelli 2

On the corner directly opposite the entrance to The Agate.......there is no sign. It is a cheap restaurant with mainly Cambodian community 

It wasn't until about 1925 that Edwin Hubble (Hubble Telescope) published his findings that other galaxies existed beyond our Milky Way Galaxy. Who would have believed there were billions of other galaxies!!  And unlikely that anyone will ever travel to any of them much less travel to the nearest star. 

It wasn't until about 1925 that Edwin Hubble (Hubble Telescope) published his findings that other galaxies existed beyond our Milky Way Galaxy. Who would have believed there were billions of other galaxies!!  And unlikely that anyone will ever travel to any of them much less travel to the nearest star. 

It wasn't until about 1925 that Edwin Hubble (Hubble Telescope) published his findings that other galaxies existed beyond our Milky Way Galaxy. Who would have believed there were billions of other galaxies!!  And unlikely that anyone will ever travel to any of them much less travel to the nearest star. 

Apologies in advance if this has already been covered for I have not read the full thread. But in the case of the provision of sexual services, in Thailand a tip is indeed just that - a tip! At least in terms of the law. The provision of sexual services for cash or other gain from an establishment like a gogo bar, host bar, spa or other such venue is illegal. If a bar was to pay a boy a living wage and then rent him out, that in the peculiar Thai way of logic is prostitution. Paying a bar fine is not because it denies the bar of the boy's time to dance or whatever. Negotiating a fee in advance between two people for sexual services is technically an agreed advance payment and is therefore prostitution. Tipping a boy or a girl at the end of a session is technically not payment for sexual services!
But I can't imagine any of the boys in blue who get their monthly commissions are going to be too fussy about it LOL!

Throughout all this thread it seems to me three areas of delusion are emerging.
First, - 'wouldn't it be nice if everyone else took the same approach to money boys in Pattaya/Bangkok as I do'.
Second - 'wouldn't it be nice if everyone else paid and tipped the money boys the way I do'.
And the third - and this is the real killer -  is the delusion that a handful of active BMs on a small internet forum could materially alter the complex, and at times delicate, economy of  the money boys and bars across the two cities. Even if we all agreed - which clearly we don't.
 
I have the money I have, I am as generous as I can be with the money I have, and am realistic about what I can do with the money I have. I have less money than some (clearly!), and perhaps more money than others. Any yet the boys and bars of Pattaya continue to welcome us all; which is why we love the place and keep coming back  

If I understand what I've read, one theory is that everything - all the matter in the universe, and all the energy - existed in a single point called the singularity.  ⚫  When it exploded, everything contained in it started flying away in all directions.  That's what we're seeing flying away from us today.
It's mind-boggling that everything we can see once existed in a single infinitesimal point, but smarter folks than I am believe that to be the case.
I've also read that someday things will start contracting again and everything - all matter and all energy - will collapse once more into another singularity, a single point containing everything.  And then I guess the whole thing could start all over again.
But I think there's another theory that says things will just keep flying away, expanding into space and never stopping until someday entropy will be complete and there won't be any identifiable matter or any measurable energy.  They call that 'heat death'.
I'm sure not the guy to explain what happened or what's going to happen but I recently saw a PBS special about the Webb telescope in which someone remarked how amazing it was that folks on this tiny planet of ours, orbiting an unremarkable star in an unremarkable solar system in an unremarkable galaxy, should have figured out how to look all the way to the edge of the universe.
I do think it's a privilege even to have these kinds of discussions.  In fact, if I had to choose between searching for the answer and actually having the answer, I think I'd pick the former.  But I couldn't swear I wouldn't page ahead to see how it all ends.  

I think @TotallyOzis being a bit cheeky and not seriously suggesting these are going rates 😅

I guess say if you lived here (expat) in Pattaya say on a "mature aged pension"  (sounds PC, rather than say old age pension😂) then it would be a bit difficult paying those sort of prices all the time .
 
 

It's true that this topic always seems to generate a lot of heated discussion and I don't know why.
When compensating a guy for his services I first look at the going rate and set that as my minimum. After that I look at the value for money side and adjust my payment accordingly. 
I think the guys have a terriblly difficult job, serving customers old enough to be their grandfathers. Some are also rather unattractive, others are rude and demanding - and yet the guys have to soldier on. Of course some can refuse to service certain clients but others are forced to by their bar.
How they manage to get hard has always been a mystery to me. The thought of having sex with someone like myself must be a very daunting prospect, softened for the boys perhaps by the fact that I'm nice to them and show them total respect. I can also be quite generous if I really like someone.
I find the Thai boys I "interact" with to be polite, friendly, totally honest and respectful of me and my "needs", basic as they are. They are lovely people.
They've gone through the tough Covid times so I will be extra generous when I get back to Thailand.

This is the 3rd time this has happened in the last 25 years of coming to Pattaya but still it makes me angry.
The other night I'm in a bar bought the boy a drink, sitting next to each other,the boy says hello to John or whatever his name was, john sees the boy with me but ignores me and sits on the other side of the boy.
John completely oblivion to me starts chatting to the boy who turns his chair to John.
Now john didn't bother to buy the boy a drink but obviously knew him as a customer
I was going to say something to John but thought let it go 
 
This once before happened to me in about 2009 in Sunee Plaza which a farang butted in and bought the boy a drink whilst he already had one !!
Just right in front of me got on the other side of the boy and bought him a drink !!
Me sitting there looking a dummy !
, I then walked away  leaving the boy and the Farang , later he  went too  and the boy came back to me in the bar ,I just paid the boy drink without tip and left too after that !
But guys !!  Surely Surely  you must SEE the boy is SITTING with another farang ????
Why would you do that ?
Should I get into a physical fight with the interfering farang?
Its just plain rude surely you are not that ignorant?
Is it a power play ?
Have to feel like your powerful ?
 
 
 

(part 11)
Another story of a failed threesome
It all started in Boyztown when I fired up Hornet that afternoon and saw a fresh cute face just a short distance away. His profile says he's from Laos. So I said Hello, and he replied in English "I'm moneyboy. Give me 1000 Baht".
Pretty turned off by this style of soliciting, I got off. A few days later, I saw that cute face again in Boyz Boyz Boyz, looking pretty much like his profile picture and in the same clothes. 
Liking what I saw, I struck up conversation again. He said he also recognized me from my Hornet picture. Turns out the first time we talked was his very first day in town and he wasn't yet well-versed in the subtleties of asking for money from prospective customers. All forgiven then. 
22 years old, from somewhere near Vientiane, so far no customers yet and with very little money left (he even showed me his wallet: some changes in Thai baht and a note of 5 USD - probably his emergency fund). Since he asked for 1000 Baht before (big mistake), I offered "1000 Baht for short time, okay?"
We proceeded to my hotel nearby. He got showered, then checked his phone, reading a new message, then turned to me "Can you give me 200 more for taxi" (already forgot he told me he had been staying in Tukcom, just a few minutes walk from my hotel). It looked like someone started giving him relevant tips. I was like "Ok" (I intended to give him the standard 1500 anyway, unless he's a total dud in bed).
I liked both his face and his body, small but firm, and especially his very cute butts. His tool, on the other hand, is pretty... how can I say this nicely... well, it has a nice personality. This fact though gave me some self-esteem boost because mine looked quite huge next to his. As a top only, I care a lot more about the butts and belly area and usually have not much problem with small dick sizes as long as I don't have to use a magnifying glass to locate it.
The bigger problem was that he came super super quickly. Just a few strokes then he gripped my active hand, stopping it from moving, and before I realized what happened, it happened. I had barely begun anything. "Why so quick?" He turned to google translation for help with explaining "I was too emotional".
It was also pretty awkward at first when penetration began. He was totally clueless about how to position himself to ease the process. I got myself a bottom virgin or what? But once it was underway, he seemed to enjoy it - which was always a big turn-on for me.
Two days later, when the Thai from X-boy ditched me for another potential off that did not materialize (see part 10, who, by the way, kept sending me messages day after day about how lonely he was, when I would be back, why make him wait so long - a week in between repeats seems like eternity to certain bar boys with not so many customers, promising he "wait me alone" this time etc.), I called the Lao as a last-minute replacement. 
Our second time went much smoother as we got to know each other a bit better. I was careful not to do anything to trigger his "short" fuse (in every sense of the word) to keep him hard through out before I finished. Once I came, it took me less than a minute to catapult him to climax. Quick as it might sound, I would say, he has come a long way from our first encounter.
I gave him the same 1500 as the last time and he now asked for an extra 100 for taxi, which I obliged. Looks like he started mastering the subtleties of prying more money from easy-going customers.
Back to Pattaya this time, I first stayed in Agate in Jomtien Complex. That evening, I fired up Hornet and again saw that cute face just a short distance away (let's call him Little Lao because he's indeed little). I thought he was a few kilometers away in Boyztown. 
Walking down the main soi, I soon found out why. Spotting him sitting with another Lao friend (whom I also saw working in Boyz Boyz Boyz last time) in Divarium, I stopped by. Buying drinks for both of them and a Thai, who massaged me last time in Soda. He has been freelancing at both places (I never quite get the difference between regular staff and freelancer in a boy bar. They both earned tips from drink and bar fine. It looks like regular staff have to report to work daily, are expected to be on time, and earns some bar allowance if they have no drinks or offs that night. Freelancers come and go as they wish with no allowance). 
The Thai speaks good English so I enlisted his help for translation when needed. 
So we talked. Little Lao and his Lao friend (let's call him Big Lao because he's taller and bigger) recently moved from Boyztown to Jomtien because "too many boys there" Little Lao said, "too much competition" Big Lao chipped in. In fact I was not only Little Lao's first customer, I was his only customer during the time he worked in Boyz Boyz Boyz.
Although Big Lao (same age as Little Lao but looked younger) has a quite cute face and smooth fair skin, he's on a hefty side (1m74, 60 kg he told me) so not really what I'm into. My initial plan was to off Little Lao again. But I felt kinda bored that evening. 
Then the fact that they are from the same country, friends and also roommates, both worked in Boyz Boyz Boyz, reminded me of something. So I enquired further "Any of you has a brother, who's currently in Pattaya?" Both shook their little and big head. So there gone the grand idea of reconstructing a classic scene from a cult movie. For members who are not familiar with this reference, I included below a few lines from the movie's original transcript.

Anyhoo, I carried on with the idea of offing both of them just for the heck of it. Double checked by asking them directly and then though the Thai's translation to make sure they had no problems with this arrangement. No problems, firmly confirmed.
So I paid for my soft drink (60), three boy drinks (150 each, boy gets to keep 50), and two off fees (300 each, boy gets to keep 100), tipped the Thai 200 for his help with translation.
We walked back to Agate at around 10.30 pm. Both receptionists were still on duty so they checked for Id. Little Lao carried with him the physical passport, Big Lao - only a picture on his phone. Both were accepted and no joiner fees were required (I booked a double room). 
Up in the room, both stripped down to their underwear. Little Lao was still little, Big Lao was indeed pretty big (I think he lied about his weight - should be at least 5kg heavier). Big Lao went to shower first and he took quite a while - at least 20 minutes. Little Lao and I cuddled a bit and I could tell he was getting hard just from my running fingers over his body. It seems he genuinely likes me. 
However, getting hard didn't mean nothing else is going on in his other mind. 
"So you f*ck me, or you f*ck him?" 
Based on what I saw them in underwear, I was pretty sure "I'll f*ck you only" 
He smiled as this was exactly what he was getting at. 
"If you f*ck me only, can I get more money?" Didn't sound like their bonded friendship was that strong.
I calmly told him I needed to be fair and would give them equal amount this time. Next time, I would off only him and would give him more money. "Thank you" his voice was very soft, almost sounded like a child. He hugged me tighter and his little bird was now hard as a rock. So he genuinely likes me, but obviously not anywhere in the vicinity of his love for money. 
I feel embarrassed to tell you what happened next but I will anyway. My professor in Orgy-ology, vinapu, must have good laughs at my expense.
In bed, the discussion continued re. who f*ck who.
"I f*ck you, you f*ck him" was Big Lao's suggestion. 
"No I'm top only, so I f*ck him, then he f*ck you" was my counteroffer, which made Big Lao laughed his head off, so hard he almost fell off the bed (probably at the mere image of Little Lao's tiny prick poking at his immense bottoms). 
"How about you and I both f*ck him" was my other idea which is cue for Little Lao's turn to react unreasonably. "Noooo, I only let you f*ck me"  He screamed, clinging to me for dear life.
Since this wasn't going anywhere, we decided they both work on me first so I get ready to perform, then I decide who I wanna f*ck and the person who doesn't get f*cked chuckwow on his own.
Two Laos then talked in their mother tongue and decided Big Lao take care the upper part, Little Lao - the lower part.
Then we achieved a new level of awkwardness. None of them wanted the other to see his own junk, so Big Lao focused more on using the blanket to strategically cover his not-so-easy-to-cover body, while Little Lao kept his underwear on.
After a while, I decided Big Lao turn to one side to chuckwow while I work on Little Lao under the cover. They then started talking to each other in their first language again, it was very distracting as nobody could keep it hard for long. At one point I had to tell them to shut up, but still, I couldn't finish. 
Seeing this was already a fiasco, to get it over with, I told them everyone chuckwow and no one could get up until he cum. That had an immediate effect on Big Lao, who stopped talking and kept at his task at hand. After a minute, Little Lao started talking again, only to be shut up by the glaring Big Lao, who now also found it in his way.
Big Lao cum first. If we were in Nice Boys, he might have won that 300 Bath-prize. 
I finished second but it took forever for Little Lao, which is a big surprise based on past statistics. I figured out what might be problem and told Big Lao to shower first. Once he was out of sight, Little Lao achieved orgasm in less than a minute as usual. Now come to think of it, if only I told him there were a 300 Bath at stake, we might have a new world record.
It seemed Little Lao's bed behavior was very different when his friend was around, and not in a good way, except for the money haggling part, which is in itself no good news either.
When they were about to leave, I gave them their money. Big Lao barely glanced at his, but his eyes glued intently on what I gave Little Lao, probably to make sure that they received the same amount (he could tell I was more attracted to his friend). Again, didn't sound like the bond between the two was that strong, mutually.
Once they were gone, I recounted my thick wad of remaining 1000 notes, telling myself "Never again", which exactly what I told myself after my previous feeble attempt at threesome. Some people just never learned.
Before you all scoffed at me, I did learn my lesson. The next day, I was in Toy Boy, and again torn between two boys, both also from Laos (now it looks like I have a thing for Lao twinks), both attractive but in different ways. 
The first one, 26, more fair, worked in Toy Boy before Covid so he's pro (evidenced by the way he touched me in all right places right there in the bar). The second one, 23, more tanned and more toned, looked like he came straight from some paddy (indeed he was a farmer back home). 
Seeing what the other was doing, he also tried to massage me, awkwardly, using a bit too much of force. But his awkward shyness was actually what attracted me in the first place (and probably why I ended up being the first customer for quite a few boys in my life).
After talking to them and knowing that First Lao got about 2 offs from the bar each week and Second Lao, only working there for less than a month, had no off yet and had so far survived on drink tips, I decided to off the Second Lao first. When he got up to get dressed, the whole bar cast cheered up for him, some even clapping, probably for winning his first customer. It looked like they were truly happy for him.
Total expense (noticeably more expensive than Jomtien as this is Boyztown): 220 for my soft drink, 250 x 2 for two boys drink (boy gets to keep 100), 500 for one bar fine (boy gets to keep 100), 200 tip for the boy I didn't off (who accepted the missed opportunity gracefully) with a promise I'll off him next time, 40 x 2 tip for two other boys in underwear on stage, who tried pretty hard to get my attention, 50 tip for the mamasan who helped with the off, 20 tip left on the receipt folder, and last but not least, 1500 short time fee for the boy I picked. There was another mamasan, who had nothing to do with the whole process, shoved his hand to my face demanding tip to which I firmly said No.
I checked to make sure Second Lao bring his passport. He did. However, this time, I brought the boy back to Agate quite late (around 11h30 pm), there were no receptionists on duty and hence no Id check. The one night guard sitting outside couldn't care less.

Just got the above Hornet offer from probably one of the expats retiring to Pattaya. Straight to the point, zero social pleasantries, but with enough relevant information for people who need it. 
I feel flattered (someone still thinks I'm worth 1000B). It's also evidence that 1000 is the on-going rate some local expats would pay for short time service. Later I messaged a grab-driver-slash-money-boy, who asked for 2000 then quickly agreed to 1000 when I mentioned that "my local friends" only pay 1000.
(to be continued) 

For me their is a great difference between Sawatdee and Gayguides so best to read both forums.

Actually I disagree with that for the simple reason that Sunee is exactly a dark and out-of-the-way sort of place.
In Winner Boys it is still possible to have discrete, but 'very intimate' conversations with the boys; dark corners for dark deeds, so to speak, and even occasionally with 'happy' conclusions to those conversations. Not as 'in-your-face' as the more openly 'hands-on' that you get in Nice Boys, but still a level of customer/boy 'intimacy' that you never see in Jomtien Complex, or in Boyztown now for that matter.
They can get away with it in dark, forgotten little Sunee Plaza, but I just can't see that model being allowed anywhere else in the gay areas of Pattaya - I would love to be wrong on that but .... 
Sunee Plaza and Winner Boys (& Nice Boys) is still worth regular pilgrimage. Winner Boys might not be as packed-out with customers as it could be, but free of Covid restrictions, it can still be a nice modest little 'earner' for its boss and its boys with its current level of traffic.

It has been reported that the young man was  practicing a type of "parkour" (look it up) which ended in his death. 

Singapore Air offers flights from NYC/Newark with only PE and Biz Class seating; no Economy except on the leg from Singapore to Bangkok. I don't recall that @tm-nyc specified only Economy. That said, there are some flights with multiple stops, via Europe, which include Economy seating.  @tm-nyc does not provide enough info to give any good estimates as to costs, such as one way, round trip, departing date/return date. Round trip prices in PE can be quite reasonable at $1500 all depending on the dates. Economy about $1100.  Hope this helps.

I once stayed at Marina Plaza for a short time off; once was enough.

From Collider.com
Ron Howard on 'Thirteen Lives' and Recreating the Harrowing Thailand Rescue
'Thirteen Lives' is a biographical thriller about the harrowing rescue mission in Thailand to save the lives of the boys trapped in underground caves.
 
 
From director Ron Howard, the biographical dramatic thriller Thirteen Lives, due out in theaters and streaming at Prime Video later this year, tells the real-life story of the rescue mission in Thailand to get a group of young boys and their soccer coach out of the underground caves they were trapped in. The 2018 event that went on for 18 days demonstrated a remarkable strength of spirit and showed that you can sometimes accomplish the seemingly impossible, against all odds.
During a global press conference to discuss the upcoming release, Howard talked about why he wanted to tell this story, what was most important to him in achieving the necessary authenticity, exploring all the themes, the deep emotion in this real-life event, what he learned from his research, recreating the caves and the dive sequences, and what he hopes audiences take away from seeing the film.
Read the interview here:
https://collider.com/ron-howard-thirteen-lives-interview-thailand-cave-rescue/

Yes Winner was certainly thriving last night when I was there at 10pm with around 10 boys still there - 2 or 3 outside sat at tables with customers and the rest taking it in turns to dance or with the 3 customers including myself. Drinks are inexpensive and the music volume is reasonable. Boys were all in briefs apart from one in a g-string. It’s an Oasis in the mIddle of a ghost town. The owner certainly has got the formula right, but then it always used to be right in days gone by. Sunee’s decline could be judged by the motor bike taxi driver I engaged on second road not knowing where it was situated - I had to direct him. When I told him to stop at the entrance  he looked down the dark deserted Soi appeared worried and said “sure ?”
 

Before deciding how much to tip, I think all of us should have to intern for a day at a shop and perform foot and leg massage as well as oil massage (including ALL of the extras) on someone in our age group.🙂

I stayed at Mosaik about 3 months ago; very inexpensive.  Believe I paid 8000 Baht/month which included electric and WiFi.

I have often read from posters that their masseur was pleased, very pleased, overjoyed, happy, thrilled,  etc with their tips (no matter how low). However,  in all my experiences I have never received anything other than, "thank you" even though my tip was 1000 Baht for a massage and a happy ending. Sometimes a good massage, sometimes a mediocre massage, sometimes a happy ending and sometimes a not so happy ending.

I did frequently tip a boy at Family Mart with loose change after a purchase and one day I said "see you later" and his reply was "when".

I did frequently tip a boy at Family Mart with loose change after a purchase and one day I said "see you later" and his reply was "when".

I did frequently tip a boy at Family Mart with loose change after a purchase and one day I said "see you later" and his reply was "when".