macaroni21

From 4 years ago in 2020: https://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog/2020/04/07/blind-optimism-blah-outcomes/

I think it was the old Tawan in the first video (1248234). The back wall of the second video is very familiar, but I can't place it.

Agree +1 It depends on what sort of bar we're referring to. If it is drinking bars (with or without hosts) then yes, these are semi-social places and therefore culture-dependent. It's not a simple Asian-Farang divide. A bar that caters to Chinese tastes will look and feel different from one that caters to Japanese tastes or Indian tastes. And does "Western taste" include Country-and-Western American tastes? As for gogo bars, these places are more about flesh than culture, and flesh is flesh. The gogo bars of Bangkok have equal appeal, I think, to gay men of any culture. See my story about the Chinese visitor in Fresh Boy in my story https://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog/2024/09/27/pouffes-ahoy-at-fresh-boy/ This guy took to things like duck to water. However, when the gogo bars put on shows, then the question of cultural taste kicks in. What kind of show? What sort of humour? What genre of music? What situational references? What sensitivities to avoid? I am pretty sure that the invitation to women in bars is driving much of the adaptation in less-than-positive ways. Much has been said about their preference for clothed men rather than naked men since they enjoy the company of men for the illusion of romance rather than the carnal; with that, there follows a bias towards just sitting and chatting instead of offing and bonking. W hen host/bar boys can earn enough out of tips for charming the girls at the sofa, they become less interested in being off'd by men. For a glimpse into what girls (Japanese girls in this case) want out of a boy bar, see this post: https://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog/2024/04/18/host-bars-that-arent-for-us/ As Thai bars adapt in a similar direction, it's no wonder we feel frustrated with them.

Why resort to laser pointers, or causing embarrassment to customers, as @emiel1981 experienced? What's wrong with a low-tech solution like wearing numbers? Why dispense with it?

The simple answer: I don't know anymore than you might. I am far removed from being a "young Asian visitor" (how I wish 🤪 I'm one). Your observation of the crowd in BoyzBoyzBoyz is pertinent, and seems to indicate a desire for fun and entertainment (true of all young people anywhere, I'd imagine) - neither of which concept, as you yourself have pointed out, has yet crossed the minds of Jomtien bar owners. There is likely to be another dimension: the aesthetic. What is aesthetically pleasing to Western eyes may not be the same to other cultures' eyes. And other dimensions, such as music. Have you noticed that on Walking Street of Pattaya, the bars catering to the Indian visitor almost always play Indian pop? If, as a thought experiment, the Jomtien bars changed to play music like this: I think we can expect lots of farangs complaining and not returning despite the music (objectively speaking) being perfectly listenable and suitable for a cafe or bar. For 2 likely reasons: the songs are not situated within their cultural context - they don't have memory associations of earlier times when the songs meant something to them emotionally; also playing songs of a different culture is seen as signalling valency or bias for that culture, counter to the cutlure that one identifies with. That said... But why should Asian culture or Asian languages be alien to people of whiter skin? Can we imagine a day when Chinese is the most common second language for people around the world, such that when people of two different countries meet (e.g. Uzbekistan and Madagascar) they automatically reach for Chinese to cross-communicate? Is it unimaginable that one day, White people sitting in bars would find music like above perfectly normal? Listen to how fluent this guy is:

I think you're too optimistic. My guess is that the sign will attract no more than one clueless new visitor per month. From a cost-benefit angle, it's not worth the expense. 22 years ago was a different world. This Gayguides forum didn't exist. Today hardly any westerner would be travelling anywhere without some web search. The likelihood of that rare westerner who didn't do his homework and has no clue where the gay scene is and then somehow ending up on Thappraya Road and stumbling upon the sign is very, very low. Consider too the depressing fact: despite all the social media talk about gay life in Pattaya, high season continues to get lower each year. In short, even if they did a web search and read about Pattaya, they haven't been coming. There are more fundamental ills about the Pattaya scene that no sign can help with. As for the burgeoning numbers of non western visitors to Pattaya they are more likely to be surprised to see such a sign since I believe social media in their languages won't have much about gay Jomtien. But once they see those bars, they will likely write off the place. Asian visitors are younger than the average age of the western visitors to Jomtien Complex. The culture of sitting in a bar nursing a drink, simply doesn't appeal to the younger Asian crowd. So the net gain in terms of customer traffic from the new sign will likely be zero. A better case study may be the Russians. Everytime I am in Pattaya in December and riding a songtaew in the Jomtien, Thappraya area, I almost always find myself riding with Russians on the vehicle. Or if walking inland from Dongtan beach, there are plenty of them taking that route too. Over the years, lots of Russians must have gone past Jomtien Complex on foot or on songtaews. Yet I doubt if you'd see any significant number of Russians in Jomtien bars. Perhaps others can share a better observation. Hoping to gain customers by sheer chance of a passer-by is not the cleverest marketing strategy.

Time to go to church, go to confession and pray hard 😁The way the bars change, no one can be sure it'll still be there.

Oh, not for me then. I'm no muscle worshipper. Thanks, anyway.

Unless one is the extremely indecisive sort, most of us will be able to get a sense within 10 mnutes whether the boy sitting beside is compatible/attractive enough for taking off. 100 baht is the going rate (at least that's the rate I apply and have not met with any demurral). If he has sat for longer, say, > 20 minutes, maybe 200 baht. It would be unfair to his chances of getting another customer if he is expected to sit for more than 20 - 25 minutes. Also, as mentioned above, when it's his turn to go back to the rotation on stage he will tell you. E.g. when he says "I go dancing now," it is also code for "So, are you taking me off or not?" If you tip him, it's clear. He won't come back. If you don't tip, he may still not come back (even if the drink isn't finished) and you'll get a reputation in the bar as a tightfisted customer. On the other hand, if you say "Yes, please put on your clothes," then he won't go on stage, but directly to the changing room. You don't have to tip him, since you'll be paying him big later. Buying a drink for a boy has little monetary value to him. It varies from bar to bar, but typically, he gets 50 baht out of the 500 baht you'll be charged for the glass. I doubt it, but since I never buy bottles, I don't know. What if a customer calls the entire bar over (say 30 boys) to his table. Is the bar going to have to share its takings with all of them? The economics speak against it.

Apologies in advance as I am not able to answer @abidismaili's specific question, which is about Pattaya. In any case, @bkkmfj2648 has given you a clear reply. But as I was reading the various posts before that, I saw something that I have commented upon in the past, but it bears repeating. Bangkok and Pattaya are completely different markets, and it is sometimes a source of confusion when we speak of "Thailand". Chiang Mai is different again. Phuket too. Each city's scene therefore has characteristics that reflect its market. To generalise is to mislead oneself. Pattaya is a market for Western tourists who have a tendency to come during the northern winter. It used to be that a considerable number of them stay for about 3 months, thereby boosting the appearance of large numbers (due to longer "dwell-time") when the numbers (in terms of unique persons) were probably never very large. This gave rise to the stereotype of a "high season". I will defer to @bkkmfj2648 observation about Jomtien massage shops, but my recall is that the Boyztown bars do have a higher number of boys on the stage during the northern winter. At least that was what I saw in the years past, I dont know if that is still the case. Pattaya is increasingly also a market for Indian tourists, but they have no interest in the gay scene. Bangkok's gay scene in its central areas (not its suburbs) is a market for Asian tourists, many of whom come from China and neighbouring, tropical countries. The "winter effect" does not apply. Regulars of Bangkok's bars and tourist-oriented massage parlours will tell you that 90 - 95% of the visitors are Asian, and have been so for maybe two decades. Bangkok's gay scene in its central areas have high spikes rather than a high season. They spike when the source country, e.g. China, SIngapore, Malaysia , Taiwan or Korea has a major holiday and long weekend, and these are scattered around the year. Each spike lasts no more than a weekend or a week at most. As for the numbers of boys in Bangkok's "places of interest", my observation is that they do not vary by season. A market that has short-lived spikes here and there does not create enough of seasonality. That said, there is still a significant increase of straight and family Western tourists coming to Bangkok during the northern winter, and this is reflected in hotel and arifare prices; but since they are not into the gay stuff, it has little impact on Bangkok's gay scene. Maybe the number of Westerners in bars will increase to 15% during this period form the usual 5 - 10%, not enough to affect staffing levels in the bars. Chiang Mai is essentially a local Thai market. Its rhythms reflect that. (I have seen, though, hordes of Chinese tourists in northern Thailand and Laos during the Chinese New Year holidays, with many driving in from Yunnan, too; but they're not interested in the gay scene.) Phuket is characterised by a strong surge of tourists during the northern winter. It has horrid weather during the summer monsoon, with rain every day and dangerously rough seas. Phuket is exposed to the Indian Ocean, from where the monsoon comes. Sun and sand is also a greater attraction for Westerners than for Asians, so this explains the high proportion of Western tourists in Phuket, which in turn means a northern winter peak. Now, I believe Russian tourists are the biggest group, and given the severe winter in their country, the "high season" is further reinforced. Despite this, Phuket's gay scene, by all reports, continues to wither. I would have thought that, given the homophobia in Russian society, lots of gay Russians would be eager to come, find a bit of freedom and boost Phuket's gay scene the way homophobia in the West fuelled Pattaya's emergence in the 1980s and 1990s, but apparently there is no sign of that happenning. Maybe @Moses can offer some insight into why this is not happening?

True for me too. Some of my fondest memories are with guys I have met in saunas and for-pay places that are way down at the 10 percentile in the size scale.

In my experience, there is often some exaggeration. Even things like height. I know my own height - we all know our own - and quite often someone advertised as taller than me turns out not so.

Agree +1, though I would have phrased the last part slightly differently to give more nuance to the words "appear to enjoy" - Preference for those that are smart and intuitive enough to give the illusion that they like and appreciate the time with me.

@bkkmfj2648 I have tried retirement, for all of nine months. Was so bored, I was going insane. Got back into work though on a lighter schedule since i can now afford to be choosier about the consulting projects I take on. I don't particularly like Thailand 😳 as a country or society. Many things annoy me while I am there. It's mostly just its sex scene I would come back for, so even if I am fully retired, it's better to visit, say 3 times a year, than to live there. If I lived there, I fear I might either break the bank or get bored with the sex scene. Or, more likely, both. As our wise @vinapu once said, the trouble with living in Thailand is that you can't visit.

@Kiwi306 don't keep us on tenterhooks 😲 tell us more about Muscle Factory. What kind of place is it? A bar? A sauna? A naked waiter fine dining restaurant? A car wash? Where exactly in On Nut?

And lots from Taiwan around October 10th.

It's true that I off someone from a bar only about once in 4 or 5 bar visits. Even when I do, I often won't write about it. Firstly, there is not a lot I want to say about sex in the room. Secondly, it's not what my blog is intended for. You may have noticed that even when sex follows a massage, the massage visit report doesn't include any description of the gymnastics (outside editorial policy,😉). Thirdly, the majority of my visits to Bangkok are work-related, which means that I don't stay in the Silom area and I have to get up at "normal" hours in the morning. Taking a bar boy at 11pm would be impractical compared to booking a 6pm or 7pm massage. Fourthly, it is 50 - 100% costlier to get a bar boy than a massage, for no assurance of better performance. Even if I am not on a work trip and therefore have the luxury of time, the years have had an impact. Whereas I could happily do a massage-plus in the day followed by off'd-boy in the night, I don't have the energy or interest to keep up with such a pace anymore. Once a day is now enough. Moreover, over the years I have acquired a short list of bar boys and massage boys whom I contact directly to come to my room. If it's a bar boy and during evening hours, I'd still have to pay the off fee, but I wouldn't have taken him from a bar (at least, not directly), which means I don't have to pay 500 baht for drinks and be pestered by mamasans. I do not write about such come-to-my-hotel appointments. Because they are "regulars" - even if not that frequent - the sessions I have with them are generally more satisfying. In this respect, I actually have 2 Tawan guys on that shortlist, compared to just one from Fresh Boy (and last I heard, he's not even working there anymore), plus a growing number from other bars and massage places. There have been trips to Bangkok where I don't visit the bars at all; between massage visits and shortlisted boys coming to my hotel, I am busy enough. All these factors considered, offing a boy from a bar is indeed becoming a rarity. Nowadays, the main value I get from visitng a bar is to find fresh new faces once in a while, and if they perform well, they get added to the shortlist.

Postponed? Very few of us who know Thailand, I think, are surprised. "Not fully thought out", yup that applies to a lot of hare-brained ideas from successive Thai governments. I wouldn't even be surprised that some minister's relative owns an IT company and has pitched the idea to the minister who then ...

I think it was mentioned a few weeks ago that the bar had been sold to a new (woman) owner. This, if true, might account for the name change, but also the utterly clueless way they go about running a business. The previous owner was an obviously gay man; he probably understood his customers and set operational policies accordingly. Even so, it was interesting you reported on a busy bar two nights out of three. It was also unusually busy at a twink bar: Fresh Boy, when I visited recently. See my report at https://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog/

@reader is right. I now realise that when I wrote "VIP rooms" earlier, I was actually thinking of their overnight rooms. I have never used these but I recall a picture of it (when One Spa was advertising it) that showed a queen bed. Speaking of One Spa, whereas they used to send out pictures daily, they are now much less frequent in their blasts, and now longer as specific as before regarding the boys' stats, avialability and capabilities. I reckon they've had another change of management. Again.

I rarely read reviews; I don't totally trust them seeing how they are sometimes generated (coming article on ShamelessMack expands on this). As background, if it's my first session at what looks like a Type 2 place, I generally let things take their natural course. I am mostly interested in seeing what happens, what is offered to me without prompting. That way, I can be surer whether it is a Type 1, Type 2 or Type 3. Most of the time, if it is a Type 2, nothing "unprofessional" happens during the session. I get a good massage and then Thank you very much, good bye, see you again soon. If it's my second or subsequent time at what I now know (after a first experience) to be a Type 2, I generally adopt this protocol: Since Type 2 places almost always require advance booking over Line anyway, then in the Line conversation, I typically shortlist to the manager 3 or 4 guys I like and ask: 1. "Are these boys available for [Date] and [Time]?" 2. "Do these boys know how to do body-to-body massage?" (Please be direct, don't use euphemisms like "enhancement" as Google Translate may foul up the translation.) The replies you get will vary. Some managers are clear; others are vague. If they are a clear "Yes they can do," then I follow up with the question: 3. "What is the minimum tip for body-to-body massage?" Regardless of what the reply from the manager is, clear or vague, I will also ask the chosen boy when we are in the room and before the massage begins, 4. "Can do body-to-body-massage afterwards?" (Google Translate may be needed depending on the boy). I ask the boy directly in the room because (a) managers often do not communicate customers' advance requests to the boys, and (b) I want to make sure he is willing to do it even if the manager has said yes*. I hope the above step-by-step guide is helpful. -- * An example of what can happen, see this recent post by @tvkahani :

It may be counter-intuitive, but from my experience with Saphan Khwai places, I would go for the opposite priorities: mattress on the floor and bathrooms down the corridor. Massage tables are essential if one is hoping to get a good quality massage; the table ensures that the therapist has good posture as he works on your body and is thus able to deliver the strokes correctly - by this I mean massage strokes in the Western massage tradition. The Thai massage tradition is oil-free and has too much spot-pressing, which I dislike. At the Saphan Khwai shops, except for one occasion I have never had a boy with trained technique, so a massage table is pointless. The downside of massage tables is that they are narrow and thus quite restrictive when it comes to playtime. A floor mattress allows arms and legs to spill out onto the adjacent floor without fear of falling off. Since the point of going to Saphan Khwai is playtime rather than massage, I would choose a floor mattress room instead of a massage table room in that locality. In other places with good massage technique I would choose the opposite. Note: Some places have queen-sized beds instead of massage tables or floor mattresses. One Spa's VIP rooms come to mind, as do Senso's rooms (but the latter shop is in Silom, not Saphan Khwai). If a room in Saphan Khwai has a shower stall ensuite, it is likely to be 0.9 x 0.9m, too small for two persons. If one uses the bathroom down the corridor, there is a good chance of the boy joining you there.

Here's an idea: Buy a holiday home in Thailand, plant some cacti and hire this guy to prune them 😁:

I have done this a few times too. Sublime.

Virtually all the big city bathhouses are only "onsen" in the English language. The Japanese are quite fastidious to refer to the municipal water bathhouses by a different name: Sento (銭湯). Other terms I have seen are "Hot baths" or "artificial onsen" or "man-made onsen". I don't know if there is a law about labelling, but in Japan, Onsen (温泉) is used narrowly to mean what it means. That said, I have seen cheats (yes. In Japan!) I have seen a city bathhouse say it trucks spring water in from a mountain spring some distance away. They probably add a cupful of spring water to each tub, and try to get away with calling itself an onsen. Haha. But then, that it had to say something about trucking in water from afar tells me they've probably been accused of false advertising.