macaroni21

Not a bar at all. A tiny shop selling lingerie and the like, probably suitable only for gogo girls. Don't see it surviving too long. The girl gogo business in Patpong is in decline.

I see a scattershot response that does not engage with the issue at hand - which is that of overcharging by businesses through unethical practices ( not a supply and demand issue) though fortunately, it did not occur in this instance. At no time was the question of what revengeboo was willing to pay the issue, and no one was calling him out on that - which is how you're changing the discussion. The uncertainty, which has since been resolved, was whether he was asked to pay more than he had agreed to pay. That you're conflating the two scenarios is what I mean by a scattershot response. Scattershot responses that go off tangent generally indicate that the debate has been lost. It's also disappointing to see a hint of contempt for those in the sex business. Why can't it be a "noble enterprise"? As much as we hold ourselves to high standards of ethics and integrity in our dealings with others, why do we expect less of those running sex businesses or sex workers themselves? When we say we shouldn't be concerned if they cheat because we are rich, it really amounts to the view that they cannot be as worthy as us, cannot be held to the same standards of honesty and integrity as us, simply because they are poorer. What has honesty to do with wealth? One may think one is being generous to overlook the loss when the other party engages in deception, but in fact such an attitude is a mark of disrespect and contempt ("they cannot be expected to be my equal in terms of honour and integrity"). On the contrary, it is precisely my holding those in the sex business to the same high standard which demonstrates my respect for them as equal humans.

I did hear story from a Singapore acquaintance who was a policeman, so it's an inside story. A transgender sex worker was not paid for her services. When she protested, the John assaulted her, no serious injuries though. She ran to a police station, and a few constables were assigned to help her find the assailant. Amazingly they found him having a beer in some cheap shop, and he was brought back to the police station. The police were in no position to press charges over non payment but she could press charges over the assault. Basically, the policemen told the John to pay up + compensation for her medical treatment, and she might then consider not pressing charges. The John complied. So, in effect, the police helped her to collect payment. And this was in Singapore. Come to think of it, I guess it isn't so strange a tale from a city famous for law and order.

Beautifully written. A novelist perhaps? And yes, many of us would have experienced the same roller coaster feelings. Welcome to the club!

I remember Barbiery well, it being among the first gogo bars where I had great times and indelible memories. And yes, at least half the clientele were Thais. Where have they gone? To the internet, I guess. Free porn, paid porn (Onlyfans, etc), online hookups paid or otherwise.

Although you later said this comment was aimed at another member of the board, nonetheless, you had quoted me, and a plain reading of your comment would lead people to think that you were referring to me. I think it is important to make a distinction between (1) holding a contract party to his word, (2) not caring that the other party is cheating you despite an earlier contract, and (3) bargaining ruthlessly to extract every last discount. I agree that (3) is not a pretty sight, and I would not condone it either, but that was not what I referring to in my question to @revengeboo This is what revengboo wrote and which caught my eye: It so happened that I am up to date with what Arena's menu card says: Massage 60 minutes 590 baht (standard room included) Massage 90 minutes 790 baht (standard room included) VIP room 60 minutes 300 baht VIP room 90 minutes 400 baht Minimum tip 60 minutes 1,000 baht Minimum tip 90 minutes 1,200 baht It is easy to calculate what the shop should have charged him for his session of 60 minutes: 890 baht. Yet revengeboo wrote "1900", and he indicated that the tip to the masseur was a separate payment at the door. Thus my question to him as to whether this was a typo. Revengeboo has since confirmed that it was probably a misrecollection. That is reassuring. If he had been sure that 1900 was what he paid (plus 100 in change snatched away by the "elf"), it would be concerning to many members of this board, as it would indicate an unethical practice where the menu price is one thing but, perhaps taking advantage of a customer's euphoria or jet lag, a different amount is demanded at checkout. Many members of this board would certainly want to know if a business engages in unethical practices so that we can be extra vigilant. To argue that just because someone comes from the West, he shouldn't care about what is being charged (even when being cheated) is to fail to make an intelligent distinction between (1) and (2). First of all, not everyone in the West, or coming from the West is wealthy. Secondly, to say, we shouldn't care if we're being cheated because we are richer than Thais is in fact a form of boastfulness ("It doesn't bother me even if you cheat me, because I am so, so much richer than you!"), and that's not a pretty sight either. It's also the kind of thing that feeds into the stereotype of the Ugly American (or whatever nationality). It does everybody else of the same nationality a disservice.

Cock parade inside your own hotel room? Should be the easiest thing to arrange. Just hire ("off") all the gogo boys from any bar who perform the bar's cock parade item in their show. If they're OK with striding around the stage in their full glory, along with each other, why not in your room? You can even leave the curtains open... And join in.

I agree that that was possibly a big factor. And not just for the young Western crowd, but for the young Asian crowd too. Even in Bangkok, the younger crowd, besides being centred on Silom Sois 2 and 4, gravitated to massage parlours instead of gogo bars as many of us have observed. Technically the "masseurs" are sex workers too, but there is a greater degree of deniability. It takes age for a person to be able to say: to hell with it, I buy sex. Younger people are more reluctant to go whole hog that way because at their age, they and their peers can get free sex. It's embarrassing to admit to buying sex. Your peers may think you're ugly or some kind of predator. While the massage places (which also had the benefit of local Thai patronage) stayed alive and well, meanwhile, the Bangkok and Pattaya Boyztown gogo bars masked their steady bleed of gay clients because they enjoyed a boom time from the massive expansion of tourism in Thailand between 2008 and 2018. The straight couples discovered the raunchy shows they were putting up. This actually made the gogo bars even more unappealing to the younger gay crowd. You might accidentally meet a co-worker there! This wave of first-time Asian mass tourism is ending. The gogo bars are never going to see the same traffic as before, because those straight Asian tourists will not care to see a seedy big cock show a second time. "Been there, done that". This explains why the gogo bar scene may be in gradual decline too (most visibly in Pattaya). The stupid thing is that, through the boom time, the bars got addicted to the straight gawking crowd, and thus lost their focus on the sex-buying gay market. Will there be a sex-buying gay market in future? Of course there will. The present generation of Soi 2 and Soi 4 goers will age. But the gogo bars need to wean themselves off the straight gawking customers and reinvent themselves to cater to the emerging generation of gay customers. How bad are these bars at business? Very bad. To start with, they're not even copying the massage places and selling their boys on the Line app! If they have websites, they're still featuring gatoeys!

Is there a typo? You're referring to Arena Massage. If the minimum tip was 1000 baht, this implies a 60-minute session. If so, the shop's charge should be 590 baht + 300 or 400 baht for the VIP room. How did they end up charging you 1900 baht?

Oh dear, your trip report has made me, as an old-timer, feel somewhat guilty. Why? I'll come to that later. But thank you for an honest and insightful report. All of us make mistakes or have bad days, even old-timers who have even more reason to slap ourselves when we foul up. We should have known better! we say to ourselves. What you've unknowingly pointed out - and it is of value - is that whereas most of us write about our experiences in Thailand with regular forum members in mind as the readership, we may be forgetting that there are newcomers such as yourself, who are drawing information from our posts in planning for their first trip. Thus the guilt. I can totally understand that lurking will be the preferred method pre-visit since a newcomer has little to add to the discussions. But lurking means invisibility, and so the regulars in this forum don't realise the effect our posts may have on newbies making their plans. So, for the benefit of potential newbies, allow me to make a few observations that may help: 1. If you're going to travel all the way to Thailand, and money isn't a serious impediment, plan for a longer visit rather than overpay for services because you're short of time. Hotel, food and local transport costs are relatively cheap in Thailand. Giving yourself the luxury of extra time takes away the pressure of getting things right at first try. It allows a longer learning curve, and therefore a better chance of getting a number of good sessions even if you hit a few duds along the way. 2. Be self-aware and extremely careful when you are the "visual" type. (see the thread https://www.gayguides.com/forums/topic/40355-the-different-erotic-things-we-look-for/#comment-368148 for explanation), i.e. you're the type that chooses your partners based almost exclusively on looks. Looks do not correlate with service quality. If anything, boys who are aware that they are above-average in looks may be below average in service quality; it is the not-so-nice-looking guys who know they have to work harder for their keep. See also point #6 below. 3. The rise of Line-based advertising, where the massage places send out pictures of their boys by the bundles may have increased the vulnerability of buyers who are visual, because then you're relying (exclusively) on looks (photos). When I use Line with the massage places, I tend to do it in a slightly different way. I first tell them what time I want my appointment and what I prefer of the boy service-wise. Then I ask them for a shortlist of boys who fit my criteria. Most places with decent customer service will send back about 4 - 6 pictures to choose from. Those places which do not reply with a shortlist I quickly ignore - it indicates they have no idea what their boys can or cannot do or they are not interested in ensuring a fit between customer and client. 4. As you noticed very quickly, paying triple or quadruple the going rate does not get you triple or quadruple the satisfaction. In fact, it only makes you a target for the unscrupulous. My advice to newbies is: Steel yourself to resist overcharging. Walk away. Of course this is easier if you have time on your side which is why my point #1 above is important. 5. Old-timers like me write about places pretty distant from the city centre. Newbies should stick to the Silom-Surawong area, at least for the first 4 - 5 days. There are plenty of attractions within that area alone to keep you busy. And plenty of hotel options, so you don't have to travel by taxi or Grab and get stuck in traffic. Save the more distant places for your second visit. See map of gay ghetto: https://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog/2023/12/07/map-of-silom-surawong-area-december-2023/. Tip for those wanting muscly masseurs: Go (walk) to Arena Massage. You don't have to go all the way to Sabaidee or Jey Spa. 6. Especially if you're a very visual person, the gogo bars may serve you better than the massage parlours. Firstly, you see the boys in the flesh (though in some bars they are more covered up with sweatpants and T-shirts nowadays compared to 10 years ago) and you can take your time in making a choice. Secondly, for the price of a boydrink (and perhaps a thank-you-but-not-tonight tip of 100 baht) you get a chance to engage in a bit of conversation with a shortlisted boy. You can assess his language skills and personality, and very often too, get a sense of whether he really wants to go with you. Boys are not as desperate for customers as we may imagine (I know of boys who say they will not go with a certain type of customer.) Do not be put off by oldtimers like us moaning about ever-increasing costs at the gogo bars 😂 The bars still give reasonable value. However, never admit to the mamasans that it's your first time in Thailand; once they get their claws into you, they won't let go!

Good point. While I doubt if the regulars of Sunnee, being in the main of a certain generation, might adopt technology quite so easily, it is possible that the newer generation of twink-lovers did. So, as Sunnee's reputation went down the toilet, they stayed on the apps rather than travel all the way to Sunnee. This may have contributed to the non-renewal of the Sunnee scene. Good question. If I may speculate: 1. The association with paedophilia caused reputational damage to Sunnee unlike other places. 2. The "product offer" of Sunnee was unusually narrow (fem twinks) and held little attraction to the newer generation of western tourists and Asian clients. 3. As Asian traffic rose, Bangkok had an advantage. Asian tourists tend to make shorter trips, so staying in Bangkok made more sense compared to going all the way to Pattaya (which is also why Pattaya's Boyztown has also seen considerable decline).

I've been told that even during Sunee's heyday. Even checked out all of those bars except Holiday 2 which I don't recall at all. With due respect, what's "masculine" to Sunnee lovers fall way short of "masculine" to non-Sunnee lovers. With that gulf in expectations, there was no persuading non-Sunnee lovers to become Sunnee-lovers. Consider for a moment the "masculine" boys of the still-surviving Nice Boys. Can we seriously imagine the clients who go to Dream Boy Bangkok or Jupiter to appreciate Nice Boys' ragamuffins?

Try this other theory of change for size: I can't remember what its proper name is but I shall call it the tipping point effect. Applying it to Sunnee (and one might apply it to Jomtien host bars though they're at a different point in the trajectory for now), it goes like this: the market did not suddenly vanish. It declined gradually as Sunnee lovers aged or died. Plus, as @floridarob suggested, the fear of being caught up in the moral panic over paedophilia caused some to stay away. In the early stages of the decline, the businesses stay open, albeit with more and more red ink. However, because the neon signs remain lit, the impression one gets is that the market is healthy. It takes close observation of foot traffic to spot signs of strain if one has no access to the financial figures. Eventually a few business can hold on no longer. They close. That's the tipping point. Once their neon signs are switched off, the ambiance of the place changes. Customers notice and some of them decide to give the district a miss. With reduced traffic, more businesses close and the vicious cycle accelerates. On the visible surface it may look like a sudden collapse, but under the surface it has not been healthy for a long time. This is an overarching theory of change. Even the fall of the Soviet Union followed this path. Its decline started some 20-25 year earlier as Brezhnev and his circle consolidated power, but only became noticeable in the 1980s with Poland's Solidarnosc.

I don't mean to sound unkind, so please don't read judgement into my choice of words. Sunnee, I have long observed, was a kind of fetish place. Almost uniformly, the bars both indoor and outdoor had fem twinks, some bordering on anorexic. The clientele, almost uniformly, were white men. They were the first wave of rice queens whose erotic desire was shaped by mid 20th century Western stereotypes of Asianness as caring, submissive... i.e. feminised. (We still see that in Hollywood where Asian male characters are often emasculated while the Asian female is prized for her exotic beauty). This unique form of erotic desire naturally doesn't carry over to either the subsequent generation of westerners nor to gay male Asians. So when the first generation of Sunnee lovers died off, no one replaced them. Quite unlike the Bangkok gogo bar scene where gay Asians are the majority clients today.

In the front room, other than myself, there was just one group of Koreans: three guys and three girls. The dancers gave equal attention to the guys as to the girls. It was interesting to see how at first the (straight) guys flinched when the dancers approached them, positioning their pubic regions no more than a hand-span from the Korean guys' faces. They almost freaked out when the dancers pulled their trouser waist-bands forward to invite them to tuck a tip in. But that was just their reaction to the first 2 dancers. By the third dancer, the Koreans guys were just as into the scene as the anyone of us would be. I observed one of them do a full Vinapu tuck, to make sure the 100-baht bill was securely inside. After watching four dancers and tipping each one of them 100 baht, I decided to take a look at the women's room. Technically I was required to buy another drink to enter that room*, but I worked my charm on the manager and the second-drink requirement was waived. What did I see? A svelt white girl on stage curled around a pole and two other white girls in the sofas against the wall (from their skimpy dressing obviously dancers too, waiting their turn). But not a single customer in sight. *that's similar to what I been sayng for years about gay gogo bars. They should have separate rooms: one for rotation boys and offing, and another for just the show (at specific times). They should keep drink prices low for the room with numbertag boys and charge an extra drink for the showtime room.

Are you still thinking of buying a bar??? Not just in Pattaya, in Bangkok too, though it's pretty clear that Pattaya's gogo bars are in more dire straits than the capital city's. It's a real mystery to me. Considering these observations I've made (and I think most of us have made too): - 20 customers a night at best in a Pattaya bar; 40 customers as best in a 2nd-rung Bangkok bar; 70 customers at best in a top-rung Bangkok bar; - average spend per customer on drinks maybe 300 - 800 baht in Pattaya; 500 - 1000 baht in Bangkok; - average number of offs, maybe 10 - 15% of customers, at about 500 baht each time... The top-rung's numbers look viable, with revenue about 60,000 baht a night. Bangkok's 2nd rung bars look borderline, revenue about 35,000 baht a night. The Pattaya bars don't look viable to me. On the cost side, rent in Bangkok is way higher than Pattaya. The shows they put up also costs money. However Hotmale does not use external performers (read: gatoeys) for its shows, and some Pattaya bars don't do shows at all - so they save costs this way. Now that you mention it, 15 - 20 years ago, a Thai anthropologist whom I met at an AIDS event shared with me his theory (or likely inside information, more than just a theory) that at least some of the Soi Twilight bars were not primarily intended to make money from their operations. They were owned by wives of influential people, and the black money that these influential power-holders received in the course of their "work", were booked as sales revenue in these bars. You see, these bars are all cash-based, and thus perfect vehicles for laundering dirty money. The power-holders were also in a position to protect these businesses though there was some sharing with the local police precinct, to keep everyone happy. I'm just repeating what I heard, but it made sense to me then. Of course, I cannot swear it to be the truth.

Hot news! While X-boys is committing suicide, there's a hot new bar in town. It's on walking street only about 50m from the junction with Beach Road. Upstairs it has 2 rooms. The front room has male dancers and the back room has "Russian girls" as advertised Of course I chose to sit in the front room. The dancers come on stage one at a time since it's a small bar (and they really dance, including going 3m up the pole). All buffed white males, 1.8m, with chest hair. They're gender neutral. After each stage number they go to each customer and grind their groins in customers' faces, whether male or female clients. For a 100 baht tip of course. At first I thought all Russian, but at least one was Brazilian. No nudity however, just down to briefs.

I think he's in Argentina wanking away on a mountain 🤣

Replying to @Gaybutton, OK, I wasn't terribly clear. What I was saying is that since the default position is reciprocity (often the position of foreign ministries in many countries) giving US, EU and other westerners visa-free 30 days is already a concession. TAT will find it hard to push othe government agencies to agree to longer. For example, Thailand had long required visas from Indian nationals, but because India is a huge country and Thailand cannot afford to have consulates, Thailand operated a visa-on-arrival scheme for Indians. Now, why bother to demand visa-on -arrival when almost all arriving passengers get one? Might as well let them enter visa-free, you would think. The only logic is because India demands visa of Thai nationals. Only recently when Chinese tourists were far below trend did Thailand institute visa-free travel for indians. And even then, it was a temporary exception, just a few months. Why? Probably the Thai foreign ministry's pride had to be accommodated. (Though I can also think of another factor: the need to monitor how many Indian tourists overstay their visits - a perennial problem in western countries.)

There are plenty of good arguments above about future prospects and there's little I can add except to say that supply and demand, while important, aren't the only factors. Demand can be elastic relative to price and ease of access. Supply is highly sensitive to many external factors like social, political and religious pressures. Then, of course there are the usual issues to do with rent, grease money and availability of labour. With so many factors against it, and demand remaining flat (optimistically), thus incapable of overcoming negative factors, I fear the crystal ball darkens. As can be seen in lots of other countries, there can be demand, but no viable supply, that's why gogo bars are quite unique to Thailand, as far as Asia is concerned. Thus the tourist traffic. For now at least. Another angle is worth mentioning. Given the liberal Thai attitude and huge profits to be made from the girl gogo trade, that business is unlikely to be tampered with by politicians and social Karens. They may try (as they have) but are unlikely to succeed. The good thing going for Thailand is that they do not make too much of a moral distinction between hetero and homo, so if girl gogo bars cannot be eradicated and will be teeth-clenched tolerated, there will remain space for boy bars. That leaves economic pressures....

It was me. First hand report from X-boys Pattaya, confirmed directly with two mamasans 15 minutes apart. Madness. I have also checked with two other bars, and they're at 500 baht off fee which, if I recall correctly, is 100 more than last year.

As for tourist visas (I'm in no position to speak about longer-stay visas), a lot of the explanation can be found in the issue of national pride. So long as Western countries require Thai citizens to apply in advance for visas, so Thailand will feel justified in requiring the same of those nationals. This is not a hard and fast rule of course; the need to attract tourists can overcome the question of pride, but the tourism authority has to battle its way against the default position often defended by foreign ministries. This is true not just of Thailand. Reciprocity is the general principle around the world. Brazil for example is implementing visa requirements for US, Canadian and Australian passport holders and when Brasilia announced this, it cited the principle of reciprocity: So long as these countries require Brazilians to hold visas before visiting them, so the reverse shall apply. All that is left is whether to make the mechanics of issuing visas simple or fiendishly difficult. Thai bureaucracy, of course, leans towards the latter.

I can't speak for the hetero side of Pattaya, but "hazy" is too kind for the gay side. A new bar called Classic has taken over the former Cupidol premises, and stocked itself with about 15 fem twinks. Not a single customer inside. The mamasan could barely speak four sentencces of English. S/he was unable to understand a word of what I said, and to everything I tried to say (as simply as possible), the response was "What number you like?" I was out of there in ten minutes having performed my charitiable act for the month. Meanwhile at X-Boys, the off fee has gone up to 800 baht. I thought I had misheard the first time, so I asked a second mamasan and sure enough, she typed "800" on her phone to show me (the music was too loud for speech). At least I made a point to find out - not that I had my eye on any of the boys, all too scrawny and tattooed for my taste. The poor guy to my right later had an argument with the manager over the off fee when he was surprised by the amount being added to his tab. He then said sorry to the boy who had put on his streetclothes, and left the bar alone. You call that "hazy" or "suicidal"?

I found this site: https://friendlyhotelsguide.com/guest-friendly-hotels-bangkok-thailand/ Someone took a lot of trouble to put the joiner question to numerous hotels. Silom area hotels are below and need scrolling. But that's also when one notices defunct hotels like Om Yin Lodge, Tawana, etc. It's always difficult keeping such information lists up to date.

Oops, PeterRS got in the way 😲 when I wrote "it's a very old hotel", I was referring to the Montien.