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macaroni21

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  1. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from alvnv in Is Thailand's Gay Nightlife Overpriced?   
    This is a good question and I genuinely don't know either, so would appreciate information from those who have experience with Brazil and/or Colombia. From my occasional glance at the Latin American sections of this forum, it seems to me that there is a lot of focus on muscularity and above all, the size of dick, which on the face of it, suggests that the keen visitors to these places are largely bottoms looking for tops. So the question is: would tops looking for bottoms find Latin American saunas, massage or other possible gay-for-pay places too frustrating?
    This may be a factor in how some members here prefer Thailand. I don't really know but it seems to me to be worth an honest (and respectful) discussion.
  2. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from BL8gPt in Trip report: Thailand September 2022   
    I am pretty sure they were, (or more specifically, the mamasan was). Just because I said that the tip SHOULD be money going exclusively to the boy does not mean that he would not be extorted of part it by the mamasan the next day. I think the waiter would have been happy with 2,000, in line with the other gogo boys of the bar unless he has a very high opinion of himself as some kind of Adonis, in which case, he won't be value for money with an attitude like that. 
    Bear in mind that however appealing he may look to you, his performance in-room remains a complete unknown. It's an independent variable. You have no way to assume that he is worth 3,000.
    If I were in your place and am smitten by the waiter, I would try to find a way on my next visit to the bar to slip him my LINE contact and ask him to message me. Rather than off him from the bar where the vulture (oops, I mean the mamasan) would be watching, I'd try to arrange an afternoon tryst via LINE. I would go no further than 2,000. After all, he already knows that 3,000 is unacceptable to you from the incident the other night. He would have no expectation of 3,000 by now.
  3. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from Boy69 in Vietnam Bar Boys   
    But maybe the Thai boy didn't know that in such a restaurant one is supposed to order an individual dish? He could well have thought that, like in Thai dining, one orders 3 - 4 dishes to share. The typical Thai boy isn't as well travelled as some folks here. 
  4. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from splinter1949 in The 45-day visa exemption proposal   
    Pie in the sky.... again.
    It so happens that only about a month ago, I researched the average length of stay of tourists in Thailand. There is a graph in my blogpost Will Pattaya revive? that shows that in 2018, tourists from Europe averaged about 17 days in Thailand. Now, these tourists are mostly from the UK, Germany, France, Russia, Sweden, Netherlands, Italy.... All of these countries had visa exemption and 30 days, and yet they did not stay (on average) close to 30 days.  Just because Thailand now extends the max stay to 45 days, does not mean the visitors will stay longer.
    The majority of tourists to Thailand are from East and Southeast Asia. Thai statistics group these two regions together, and in 2018, their average stay was just 7 days. Chinese and Taiwanese tourists were Visa on arrival which meant they could get 15 days. Other major Asian markets were Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Singapore, and all these visitors could get 30 days with visa exemption. Yet, Asian tourists stayed only 7 days on average.
     
  5. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from TMax in The 45-day visa exemption proposal   
    Pie in the sky.... again.
    It so happens that only about a month ago, I researched the average length of stay of tourists in Thailand. There is a graph in my blogpost Will Pattaya revive? that shows that in 2018, tourists from Europe averaged about 17 days in Thailand. Now, these tourists are mostly from the UK, Germany, France, Russia, Sweden, Netherlands, Italy.... All of these countries had visa exemption and 30 days, and yet they did not stay (on average) close to 30 days.  Just because Thailand now extends the max stay to 45 days, does not mean the visitors will stay longer.
    The majority of tourists to Thailand are from East and Southeast Asia. Thai statistics group these two regions together, and in 2018, their average stay was just 7 days. Chinese and Taiwanese tourists were Visa on arrival which meant they could get 15 days. Other major Asian markets were Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Singapore, and all these visitors could get 30 days with visa exemption. Yet, Asian tourists stayed only 7 days on average.
     
  6. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from prickles in Trip report: Thailand September 2022   
    @emiel1981 Thank you for the report on Jupiter. Your observations are exactly like my assessment in 2018 or 2019, and I have not had any interest in going back since.
    From a mix of mamasan whispers and my own observations, the hetero women's behaviour don't mirror gay men's. They get more "head over heels" and generally tip better than the men. However, they hardly ever take the boys off - partly because they often come into the bar as a group for entertainment, not to hunt for physical sex (see quote below).
    Unfortunately, from the gogo boys' point of view, if tips are generous enough for sharing 10 or 15 minutes with women - and anyway their natural interest is in women -  there is less and less interest in accepting offs from men, where they will have to WORK for their money. This partly explains the tendency to ask for more and more. 
    Here's a good description from Magic Men: 7 major differences between male strip clubs and female strip clubs. The article references hetero strip clubs, but they equally describe what happens in gay strip clubs and the behaviour of women in these same spaces (as in Jupiter and BoyzBoyzBoyz).
    Let me quote a key passage:
    Jupiter (and Moonlight) are taken in by the style of fashion shows, where the "models" do runway walks, often at quite a fast pace with unsmiling expressions. I wonder if somewhere in the psychology of women, they like this kind of thing....
    They are also mimicking the shows of the Thai bars e.g. Fake Club. Not that I've been to them, but I have seen videos. They get a good (and mixed) crowd, and their shows too are often like runway fashion shows. I won't be surprised if the Silom-Surawong bar owners and managers think that this is the route to success. But these are show bars, not sex-offing bars (according to my Thai friends).
    At least in the above video, it was a guy, not a woman, who was invited to the "chair dance".
    The next video is perhaps their full show for an evening (or most of it).
    But places like Fake Club are show bars where friends go in groups to enjoy a night out, not sex-offing bars. And frankly, from the videos, Fake Club does a better job of shows than any Silom-Surawong bar.
    The problem is this: If we had to choose between going to a show bar with no realistic chance of a satisfactory off and a  sex-offing bar with no show, which would we go to? I would choose the latter with no hesitation, and I think many members here would too. Yet the Silom-Surawong bars keep investing in shows with gatoeys and loud music. That shows you how much the bar owners understand their market.
  7. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from floridarob in Trip report: Thailand September 2022   
    I am pretty sure they were, (or more specifically, the mamasan was). Just because I said that the tip SHOULD be money going exclusively to the boy does not mean that he would not be extorted of part it by the mamasan the next day. I think the waiter would have been happy with 2,000, in line with the other gogo boys of the bar unless he has a very high opinion of himself as some kind of Adonis, in which case, he won't be value for money with an attitude like that. 
    Bear in mind that however appealing he may look to you, his performance in-room remains a complete unknown. It's an independent variable. You have no way to assume that he is worth 3,000.
    If I were in your place and am smitten by the waiter, I would try to find a way on my next visit to the bar to slip him my LINE contact and ask him to message me. Rather than off him from the bar where the vulture (oops, I mean the mamasan) would be watching, I'd try to arrange an afternoon tryst via LINE. I would go no further than 2,000. After all, he already knows that 3,000 is unacceptable to you from the incident the other night. He would have no expectation of 3,000 by now.
  8. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from vinapu in Trip report: Thailand September 2022   
    I am pretty sure they were, (or more specifically, the mamasan was). Just because I said that the tip SHOULD be money going exclusively to the boy does not mean that he would not be extorted of part it by the mamasan the next day. I think the waiter would have been happy with 2,000, in line with the other gogo boys of the bar unless he has a very high opinion of himself as some kind of Adonis, in which case, he won't be value for money with an attitude like that. 
    Bear in mind that however appealing he may look to you, his performance in-room remains a complete unknown. It's an independent variable. You have no way to assume that he is worth 3,000.
    If I were in your place and am smitten by the waiter, I would try to find a way on my next visit to the bar to slip him my LINE contact and ask him to message me. Rather than off him from the bar where the vulture (oops, I mean the mamasan) would be watching, I'd try to arrange an afternoon tryst via LINE. I would go no further than 2,000. After all, he already knows that 3,000 is unacceptable to you from the incident the other night. He would have no expectation of 3,000 by now.
  9. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from fedssocr in Trip report: Thailand September 2022   
    Customarily, the practice is like this: Offing a waiter and removing him from the available staff in a bar (not that bar waiters have that much to do anyway) is usually discouraged through a higher bar fine (off fee), not through imposing a higher tip for the boy, which anyway should be money going exclusively to him.
  10. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from Ruthrieston in Trip report: Thailand September 2022   
    I checked the distance from Phuket airport to Best Western in Patong. It's 40km. They are charging 800 baht. I also checked the distance from Suvarnabhumi airport to Patpong. It's 36 km, and a typical taxi ride (minus tolls) would be around 400 baht. Distance for distance, Phuket taxis are charging twice what Bangkok taxis charge, and that's only when the authorities step in to impose a "maximum". Good thing you're staying within walking distance of the gay area.
  11. Thanks
    macaroni21 got a reaction from emiel1981 in Trip report: Thailand September 2022   
    Customarily, the practice is like this: Offing a waiter and removing him from the available staff in a bar (not that bar waiters have that much to do anyway) is usually discouraged through a higher bar fine (off fee), not through imposing a higher tip for the boy, which anyway should be money going exclusively to him.
  12. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from emiel1981 in Trip report: Thailand September 2022   
    I checked the distance from Phuket airport to Best Western in Patong. It's 40km. They are charging 800 baht. I also checked the distance from Suvarnabhumi airport to Patpong. It's 36 km, and a typical taxi ride (minus tolls) would be around 400 baht. Distance for distance, Phuket taxis are charging twice what Bangkok taxis charge, and that's only when the authorities step in to impose a "maximum". Good thing you're staying within walking distance of the gay area.
  13. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from vinapu in Trip report: Thailand September 2022   
    I checked the distance from Phuket airport to Best Western in Patong. It's 40km. They are charging 800 baht. I also checked the distance from Suvarnabhumi airport to Patpong. It's 36 km, and a typical taxi ride (minus tolls) would be around 400 baht. Distance for distance, Phuket taxis are charging twice what Bangkok taxis charge, and that's only when the authorities step in to impose a "maximum". Good thing you're staying within walking distance of the gay area.
  14. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from vinapu in Trip report: Thailand September 2022   
    Customarily, the practice is like this: Offing a waiter and removing him from the available staff in a bar (not that bar waiters have that much to do anyway) is usually discouraged through a higher bar fine (off fee), not through imposing a higher tip for the boy, which anyway should be money going exclusively to him.
  15. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from TMax in Trip report: Thailand September 2022   
    That was exactly my thought when I read what emiel wrote. And not only waiters, I would not use mamasans or papasans when negotiating offs with the gogo boys either. 
  16. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from vinapu in Phuket dfrnt/btr than Koh Samui ?   
    In all the discussion so far about Phuket on this thread, no one has mentioned the taxi mafia yet. Perhaps we should forewarn 12s12? @AlexThompson were taxi prices as ridiculous n 2018 as I remember it from several years earlier?
  17. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from vinapu in Trip report: Thailand September 2022   
    That was exactly my thought when I read what emiel wrote. And not only waiters, I would not use mamasans or papasans when negotiating offs with the gogo boys either. 
  18. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from floridarob in Trip report: Thailand September 2022   
    That was exactly my thought when I read what emiel wrote. And not only waiters, I would not use mamasans or papasans when negotiating offs with the gogo boys either. 
  19. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from GWMinUS in First time Pattaya   
    I watched the entire show a few weeks ago. Not once did it remind me of Magic Mike (not that I've been to see the real Magic Mike show, but I've seen videos of it). It had a combination of lip syncing putting-on-the-pounds gatoeys and (biggish) boys half obscured by tattoos and masks. In nearly all the show items in which boys participated, erect appendages were the centre of attention, not their "dancing" skills à la Magic Mike of which there was none -- by the 4th such act, it got really old....
    The worst part was the screaming by the women who made up 40 - 50% of the audience, and the loooong (80- 90 minutes?) duration.
     
  20. Thanks
    macaroni21 got a reaction from Olddaddy in Bangkok gay guides from Siamroads.com   
    I have "outed" myself as the blogger time and again since more than ten years ago, but few people seem to notice, 🥲ha ha ha. It's a little deflating, I must say ...
    By the way, the latest two posts are about Tawan - one recent report and another from 13 years ago. Compare the two and weep!
  21. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from BL8gPt in Trip report: Thailand September 2022   
    That was true in July too. Credit to Hotmale.  If only more bars followed that example. By the way, did you pay 350 baht or 400 baht for your first drink there?
     
    They certainly have, but the role of shows in the bars' business model has changed to dominate the business objective. This makes the boy hunter feel neglected. His interests are not well served.
    But first, we need to distinguish three types of shows:
    They are (a) live porn, (b) fancy dancing by boys (or, more often than not, hopelessly amateurish attempts at fancy dancing), and (c) fake singing by fake women (I think someone will rap me for being politically incorrect).
    Live porn and some degree of fancy dancing goes well with a boyticeria; it complements the business well, since it interests the same kind of customer, heightens the erotic quotient in the bar and lengthens the time he stays in the bar.
    Fancy dancing should not dominate the show programme otherwise the programme starts to slip into non-erotic mode.
    Fake singing by fake women is actually counter-productive for boyticerias. Customers aren't in the bars to watch women, real of fake, why waste their time demanding that they watch? The ladyboys tend to be overdressed and the performances are more like cabaret. The nett effect is to lower the erotic quotient, replacing it with bright lights, voluminous costumes and deafening volume. 
    My memory from the days of Twilight and Barbiery in the 1990s was that live porn dominated their show programmes. There were some numbers by fake women, but not enough to seriously alter the tone of the bar. 
    Then Extreme Bar came along (Soi Twilight, early 2000s?) and they introduced fancy dancing. They did not flash anything from under the belt in the entire programme and within a couple of years, the bar went out of business. But the damage was done. The other bars began to "improve" their shows. More fancy dancing, usually with real dancers brought in for the evening to do 2 or 3 numbers (nowadays we still see that in the "B-Boys" break dance numbers), and when bars needed to fill an hour-long programme, more diva items were added.
    Then, from  2005, Thailand saw huge increases in visitors from Asian countries and Russia. What happened next to the business model of the bars and to pricing is described in my latest post 15 years of price rises. These new visitors to Thailand, while middle-class enough to travel, weren't big spenders like Westerners. Offing boys might have been too costly for most of them. In any case, as I wrote:
    6 - 7 years later, these Asian tourists were no longer surging into the Soi Twilight bars. My blogpost tries to explain why. But more damage had been done. Firstly, the shows had been bulked up; they were now too long in duration and too heavy with gatoeys (ladyboys) and secondly, drink prices had gone up to levels that were off-putting for customers who were primarily interested in the available boys and booking one of them out. Worse, as @emiel1981 also noticed, the book-able boys are mostly hidden away during the show. 
    In short: Shows in the form of short bursts of live porn add value to the bars businesses; shows in the form of hour-long wanna-be cabaret subtract value.
  22. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from TMax in Bangkok gay guides from Siamroads.com   
    I have "outed" myself as the blogger time and again since more than ten years ago, but few people seem to notice, 🥲ha ha ha. It's a little deflating, I must say ...
    By the way, the latest two posts are about Tawan - one recent report and another from 13 years ago. Compare the two and weep!
  23. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from vinapu in Bangkok gay guides from Siamroads.com   
    I have "outed" myself as the blogger time and again since more than ten years ago, but few people seem to notice, 🥲ha ha ha. It's a little deflating, I must say ...
    By the way, the latest two posts are about Tawan - one recent report and another from 13 years ago. Compare the two and weep!
  24. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from splinter1949 in Trip report: Thailand September 2022   
    That was true in July too. Credit to Hotmale.  If only more bars followed that example. By the way, did you pay 350 baht or 400 baht for your first drink there?
     
    They certainly have, but the role of shows in the bars' business model has changed to dominate the business objective. This makes the boy hunter feel neglected. His interests are not well served.
    But first, we need to distinguish three types of shows:
    They are (a) live porn, (b) fancy dancing by boys (or, more often than not, hopelessly amateurish attempts at fancy dancing), and (c) fake singing by fake women (I think someone will rap me for being politically incorrect).
    Live porn and some degree of fancy dancing goes well with a boyticeria; it complements the business well, since it interests the same kind of customer, heightens the erotic quotient in the bar and lengthens the time he stays in the bar.
    Fancy dancing should not dominate the show programme otherwise the programme starts to slip into non-erotic mode.
    Fake singing by fake women is actually counter-productive for boyticerias. Customers aren't in the bars to watch women, real of fake, why waste their time demanding that they watch? The ladyboys tend to be overdressed and the performances are more like cabaret. The nett effect is to lower the erotic quotient, replacing it with bright lights, voluminous costumes and deafening volume. 
    My memory from the days of Twilight and Barbiery in the 1990s was that live porn dominated their show programmes. There were some numbers by fake women, but not enough to seriously alter the tone of the bar. 
    Then Extreme Bar came along (Soi Twilight, early 2000s?) and they introduced fancy dancing. They did not flash anything from under the belt in the entire programme and within a couple of years, the bar went out of business. But the damage was done. The other bars began to "improve" their shows. More fancy dancing, usually with real dancers brought in for the evening to do 2 or 3 numbers (nowadays we still see that in the "B-Boys" break dance numbers), and when bars needed to fill an hour-long programme, more diva items were added.
    Then, from  2005, Thailand saw huge increases in visitors from Asian countries and Russia. What happened next to the business model of the bars and to pricing is described in my latest post 15 years of price rises. These new visitors to Thailand, while middle-class enough to travel, weren't big spenders like Westerners. Offing boys might have been too costly for most of them. In any case, as I wrote:
    6 - 7 years later, these Asian tourists were no longer surging into the Soi Twilight bars. My blogpost tries to explain why. But more damage had been done. Firstly, the shows had been bulked up; they were now too long in duration and too heavy with gatoeys (ladyboys) and secondly, drink prices had gone up to levels that were off-putting for customers who were primarily interested in the available boys and booking one of them out. Worse, as @emiel1981 also noticed, the book-able boys are mostly hidden away during the show. 
    In short: Shows in the form of short bursts of live porn add value to the bars businesses; shows in the form of hour-long wanna-be cabaret subtract value.
  25. Like
    macaroni21 got a reaction from maump in Trip report: Thailand September 2022   
    @emiel1981 Thank you for the report on Jupiter. Your observations are exactly like my assessment in 2018 or 2019, and I have not had any interest in going back since.
    From a mix of mamasan whispers and my own observations, the hetero women's behaviour don't mirror gay men's. They get more "head over heels" and generally tip better than the men. However, they hardly ever take the boys off - partly because they often come into the bar as a group for entertainment, not to hunt for physical sex (see quote below).
    Unfortunately, from the gogo boys' point of view, if tips are generous enough for sharing 10 or 15 minutes with women - and anyway their natural interest is in women -  there is less and less interest in accepting offs from men, where they will have to WORK for their money. This partly explains the tendency to ask for more and more. 
    Here's a good description from Magic Men: 7 major differences between male strip clubs and female strip clubs. The article references hetero strip clubs, but they equally describe what happens in gay strip clubs and the behaviour of women in these same spaces (as in Jupiter and BoyzBoyzBoyz).
    Let me quote a key passage:
    Jupiter (and Moonlight) are taken in by the style of fashion shows, where the "models" do runway walks, often at quite a fast pace with unsmiling expressions. I wonder if somewhere in the psychology of women, they like this kind of thing....
    They are also mimicking the shows of the Thai bars e.g. Fake Club. Not that I've been to them, but I have seen videos. They get a good (and mixed) crowd, and their shows too are often like runway fashion shows. I won't be surprised if the Silom-Surawong bar owners and managers think that this is the route to success. But these are show bars, not sex-offing bars (according to my Thai friends).
    At least in the above video, it was a guy, not a woman, who was invited to the "chair dance".
    The next video is perhaps their full show for an evening (or most of it).
    But places like Fake Club are show bars where friends go in groups to enjoy a night out, not sex-offing bars. And frankly, from the videos, Fake Club does a better job of shows than any Silom-Surawong bar.
    The problem is this: If we had to choose between going to a show bar with no realistic chance of a satisfactory off and a  sex-offing bar with no show, which would we go to? I would choose the latter with no hesitation, and I think many members here would too. Yet the Silom-Surawong bars keep investing in shows with gatoeys and loud music. That shows you how much the bar owners understand their market.
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