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[Pete1111]

On 12/10/2024 at 7:27 PM, Stable Genius said:

 

Republicans stormed the Capitol attacking police officers leading to several deaths. 

 

A Republican shot in Trump's direction at rally this summer killing a rally-goer.

 

Now a member of a prominent Republican family kills an insurance executive. 

 

And Republicans blame (wait for it) . . . Democrats. You can't make this stuff up.

 

In case it's not clear.

Charlie Kirk's shooter came from a rich, Republican, suburban, Mormon, pro gun family.

MAGA wants to claim the shooter was radicalized by leftists.  What is more obvious, the shooter was immersed in gun culture and military style weapons by his family.   

There are plenty of pictures of the shooter and his mother playing with military weapons.  Is it sickening?

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-reasons-we-shouldnt-jump-to-conclusions-about-tyler-robinson/

 

[Latbear4blk]

17 minutes ago, Pete1111 said:

In case it's not clear.

Charlie Kirk's shooter came from a rich, Republican, suburban, Mormon, pro gun family.

MAGA wants to claim the shooter was radicalized by leftists.  What is more obvious, the shooter was immersed in gun culture and military style weapons by his family.   

There are plenty of pictures of the shooter and his mother playing with military weapons.  Is it sickening?

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-reasons-we-shouldnt-jump-to-conclusions-about-tyler-robinson/

 

Both sides are rushing to blame each other. These shooter are not republicans or democrats, leftists or right wingers. These shooters are crazies.

[Suckrates]

52 minutes ago, Latbear4blk said:

Both sides are rushing to blame each other. These shooter are not republicans or democrats, leftists or right wingers. These shooters are crazies.

That conclusion is way too simplistic, as it often becomes clear in every case,  there was a definite political ideology being followed that molded the beliefs of each shooter.  And when you combine the ideology WITH the crazy,  you get party talking points, which we are seeing....   There is no escaping the connection between the mental state, the beliefs and political party, so just reducing it to crazy just doesnt meet the moment.   Its not as if the crazy shooter went out and shot up a LaBubu store....   He went out and shot a radical right wing agitator, inviting a clear connection between his belief and mental state. .  

[Latbear4blk]

43 minutes ago, Suckrates said:

That conclusion is way too simplistic, as it often becomes clear in every case,  there was a definite political ideology being followed that molded the beliefs of each shooter.  And when you combine the ideology WITH the crazy,  you get party talking points, which we are seeing....   There is no escaping the connection between the mental state, the beliefs and political party, so just reducing it to crazy just doesnt meet the moment.   Its not as if the crazy shooter went out and shot up a LaBubu store....   He went out and shot a radical right wing agitator, inviting a clear connection between his belief and mental state. .  

Respectfuly, you stay trapped in this logic of we against them, and of course we are always the good ones. If you take a close look to what people is calling "ideologies" of this crazies, it is a salad of nonsense, sometimes with ideas from both sides of the aisle. 

It is true that when wokeness and progressive thinking were in the rise, most of the violence seemed to come from right wing sources, because the right wing crazies were feeling powerless to fight against mainstream ideas. Now the wind has changed, right wing ideas are on the rise, and probably the ones feeling powerless to fight against mainstream will be more left wing oriented.

But all they are crazies. We are letting these crazies run public discourse. We do not listen to each other any longer and quickly jump to blame, stigmatize, and insult. I know that I have done it from the Left. 

I think it is important to break this cycle. Rather than a deadly confrontation of Righr vs Left, rational people on both sides must find a way to talk within our differences, and together clean the conversation from hate and irrationality, from masturbatorily insulting each other in discussion forums and the street, to redirect public discourse. 

[Suckrates]

38 minutes ago, Latbear4blk said:

Respectfuly, you stay trapped in this logic of we against them, and of course we are always the good ones. If you take a close look to what people is calling "ideologies" of this crazies, it is a salad of nonsense, sometimes with ideas from both sides of the aisle. 

It is true that when wokeness and progressive thinking were in the rise, most of the violence seemed to come from right wing sources, because the right wing crazies were feeling powerless to fight against mainstream ideas. Now the wind has changed, right wing ideas are on the rise, and probably the ones feeling powerless to fight against mainstream will be more left wing oriented.

But all they are crazies. We are letting these crazies run public discourse. We do not listen to each other any longer and quickly jump to blame, stigmatize, and insult. I know that I have done it from the Left. 

I think it is important to break this cycle. Rather than a deadly confrontation of Righr vs Left, rational people on both sides must find a way to talk within our differences, and together clean the conversation from hate and irrationality, from masturbatorily insulting each other in discussion forums and the street, to redirect public discourse. 

Sadly, I believe it is gonna have to come down to a deadly confrontation, as it appears THAT is the path we are on.   Have you tried to have a civil confrontation with a Trump right winger in the past 10 years ???   It is fruitless.  And the truth of the matter is that we ARE in a period of us against them,  and that is the way Trump likes it, because that way it insures HIM a loyal and faithful base.   At this very moment Trump is holding a GRAND memorialization of Charlie Kirk in Az,  a gathering that has managed to appeal  to and inspire 60,000 + radical white nationalist racists.    And Trump is grandizing Kirk..... If thats not them against us,  I dont know of a better example.   

So, I guess me being trapped in logic is allowing me to see the situation realistically.  We have a dictator that professes to be the leader of only a RED country, dismissing, minimalizing and TARGETTING the BLUE portion.....  You can overthink  and rationalize till the cows come home,  but there is currently NO WAY in hell Americans can look beyond their differences and find ANY common ground.   Not until the Dictator in charge allows that to happen,  and that would jeopardize HIS power and authority.   HE is only powerful because of HIS American people. 

[Latbear4blk]

3 hours ago, Suckrates said:

Sadly, I believe it is gonna have to come down to a deadly confrontation, as it appears THAT is the path we are on.   Have you tried to have a civil confrontation with a Trump right winger in the past 10 years ???   It is fruitless.  And the truth of the matter is that we ARE in a period of us against them,  and that is the way Trump likes it, because that way it insures HIM a loyal and faithful base.   At this very moment Trump is holding a GRAND memorialization of Charlie Kirk in Az,  a gathering that has managed to appeal  to and inspire 60,000 + radical white nationalist racists.    And Trump is grandizing Kirk..... If thats not them against us,  I dont know of a better example.   

So, I guess me being trapped in logic is allowing me to see the situation realistically.  We have a dictator that professes to be the leader of only a RED country, dismissing, minimalizing and TARGETTING the BLUE portion.....  You can overthink  and rationalize till the cows come home,  but there is currently NO WAY in hell Americans can look beyond their differences and find ANY common ground.   Not until the Dictator in charge allows that to happen,  and that would jeopardize HIS power and authority.   HE is only powerful because of HIS American people. 

Just look at your overstatements. Trump is not a dictator. He has been democratically elected and yes, he is abusing his power, he is a wanna be dictator, but he is not yet one. The judiciary is still putting limits and he is rushing to advance his agenda because he knows that he will probably lose majority in the Congress in the next midterm elections. Your obsession with Trump, and is not only you, but this irrational obsession has only favor him. Instead of spending so much energy on hating him, perhaps it would be more productive trying to understand why his ideas are so popular. Perhaps it would be more productive to take a look at our own ideas and the policies we advocated for the last years, to understand why these policies brought us to his electoral victory. It is easy to point our finger and blame others for the current state of things, without reflecting on our own mistakes.

 

[PeterRS]

7 hours ago, Suckrates said:

there is currently NO WAY in hell Americans can look beyond their differences and find ANY common ground.   Not until the Dictator in charge allows that to happen,  and that would jeopardize HIS power and authority.   HE is only powerful because of HIS American people. 

In my view that is 100% correct. Although not American, I have American friends of both political persuasions. The Republlicans in central America believe Trump is doing an amazing job and are totally behind him. The Democrats are like rats escaping from the sinking ship. They are intent on blame and revenge. They have no candidate who could possibly come anywhere near beating Trump if only because he will lie, slander and libel them to extinction. They have no identifiable policies which might attract voters away from Trump. They desperately need a leader who will stand up to Trump and all his political gamesmanship. The Party apparatus is like a puppet trying to escape from a quicksand.

3 hours ago, Latbear4blk said:

Just look at your overstatements. Trump is not a dictator. He has been democratically elected and yes, he is abusing his power, he is a wanna be dictator, but he is not yet one. The judiciary is still putting limits and he is rushing to advance his agenda because he knows that he will probably lose majority in the Congress in the next midterm elections. Your obsession with Trump, and is not only you, but this irrational obsession has only favor him . . . It is easy to point our finger and blame others for the current state of things, without reflecting on our own mistakes.

Another 100% correct post. Americans have to face up to the fact that they voted for him. They did so because Joe Biden was a lousy President who hijacked the Party, in large measure due to his narcissistic view that he'd beat Trump if he ran a second time despite his obviously deteriorating mental state. But before then Biden had also made it clear he would do nothing to push his chosen Attorney General Merrick Garland to stop dragging his feet and get on with the business of taking Trump to court for the various crimes of which he was definitely guilty. Then there would have been no Trump to run against! Democrats are running around like a bunch of scared hens in a coop which someone allowed the fox to enter. If they cannot identify a leader fast and then as quickly rally behind him (I do not think Americans are yet ready for a woman President), they will ensure the dreadful J. D. Vance becomes the next President.

[Suckrates]

3 hours ago, Latbear4blk said:

Just look at your overstatements. Trump is not a dictator. He has been democratically elected and yes, he is abusing his power, he is a wanna be dictator, but he is not yet one. The judiciary is still putting limits and he is rushing to advance his agenda because he knows that he will probably lose majority in the Congress in the next midterm elections. Your obsession with Trump, and is not only you, but this irrational obsession has only favor him. Instead of spending so much energy on hating him, perhaps it would be more productive trying to understand why his ideas are so popular. Perhaps it would be more productive to take a look at our own ideas and the policies we advocated for the last years, to understand why these policies brought us to his electoral victory. It is easy to point our finger and blame others for the current state of things, without reflecting on our own mistakes.

 

A person like you who gives Grace to Trump and his actions is EXACTLY what is giving him the power to do what he's doing.  Grace for Trump is also what got us to this point.  Calling me obsessive is an overstatement.   I am extremely CONCERNED and focused on everything he is doing.  Better to be prepared than be blindsided... and YES I read P2025 and expected everything that is happening, but that doesnt make it easier to accept.  From your posting it would be easy for me to call you a Pro-Trumper, but I'm not doing that.  I'm allowing you some Grace because you are simply one of those people not realizing yet Trumps ultimate goal and the damage he is doing to average Americans, in addition to how he is treating immigrants that are here trying to make their lives better, but not being ALLOWED to....  My ideas are just fine, thank you, as i would never align myself with anything Trump is doing, which is only harming American citizens and diminishing their quality of life and opportunities.  Trumps policies brought us to this electoral victory because people are selfish, stupid and gullible, and believed a proven and habitual LIAR.   And sorry, Trump isnt a wannabee dictator,  he's already there,  and people not acknowledging that,  regardless of court decisions that may be against him THAT HE IGNORES,  is only harming whatever sliver of Democracy that might be hanging on by a thread.  And for the record,  I'm not spending a lot of ENERGY hating him.....he makes that VERY simple for me.   

People are not yet feeling any harm from Trumps policies by design.....  the damage will hit after the mids, and if YOU are one of the people crying then,  I will still offer you my shoulder to cry on !  

[lookin]

23 hours ago, Latbear4blk said:

But all they are crazies. We are letting these crazies run public discourse. We do not listen to each other any longer and quickly jump to blame, stigmatize, and insult. I know that I have done it from the Left. 

I think it is important to break this cycle. Rather than a deadly confrontation of Righr vs Left, rational people on both sides must find a way to talk within our differences, and together clean the conversation from hate and irrationality, from masturbatorily insulting each other in discussion forums and the street, to redirect public discourse. 

Ever since Trump came down that escalator in 2015 he has been drumming into our heads messages of divisiveness, anger and fear of the other.  It's been a potpourri of pathogens that's nearly impossible to escape.  In my opinion, he and his acolytes have assaulted the mental health of the society here in the U. S. and, since our media reach is global, he's destabilized the mental wellbeing of much of the rest of the world.  Last year, I concluded that Biden's Surgeon General should have called a public mental health emergency.  Someone told me that he had, in fact, made comments in that direction.  But that was then and this is now, and I believe we've continued in the direction of poorer mental health with no plan for public intervention.

Of course, like physical health, mental health exists on a continuum.  We have folks with excellent mental health who are able to cope effectively with whatever gets thrown at them, we have the majority in the middle, and we have folks who are less mentally stable and can slip off the deep end into antisocial behaviors up to and including mass murder.  The person who muttered to himself on the street yesterday could be the person who picks up a rifle tomorrow.

I think your advice to break the cycle is exactly what needs doing.  And I'll join you questioning my own contributions to fostering distrust and divisiveness.  In the absence of any institutional intervention in a national mental health problem, it will be up to individuals and groups to promote better mental health, and I think that has to begin with forming new and stronger connections with our fellow humans.  I'm not saying it's easy but, until somebody comes up with a better idea, I think it's worth giving it even a small try.

Thanks for your openness and suggestions for breaking the cycle.

[Suckrates]

30 minutes ago, lookin said:

Ever since Trump came down that escalator in 2015 he has been drumming into our heads messages of divisiveness, anger and fear of the other.  It's been a potpourri of pathogens that's nearly impossible to escape.  In my opinion, he and his acolytes have assaulted the mental health of the society here in the U. S. and, since our media reach is global, he's destabilized the mental wellbeing of much of the rest of the world.  Last year, I concluded that Biden's Surgeon General should have called a public mental health emergency.  Someone told me that he had, in fact, made comments in that direction.  But that was then and this is now, and I believe we've continued in the direction of poorer mental health with no plan for public intervention.

Of course, like physical health, mental health exists on a continuum.  We have folks with excellent mental health who are able to cope effectively with whatever gets thrown at them, we have the majority in the middle, and we have folks who are less mentally stable and can slip off the deep end into antisocial behaviors up to and including mass murder.  The person who muttered to himself on the street yesterday could be the person who picks up a rifle tomorrow.

I think your advice to break the cycle is exactly what needs doing.  And I'll join you questioning my own contributions to fostering distrust and divisiveness.  In the absence of any institutional intervention in a national mental health problem, it will be up to individuals and groups to promote better mental health, and I think that has to begin with forming new and stronger connections with our fellow humans.  I'm not saying it's easy but, until somebody comes up with a better idea, I think it's worth giving it even a small try.

Thanks for your openness and suggestions for breaking the cycle.

With all due respect to you Lookin and Latbear, a huge swath of the country have been trying to break the cycle since Trump came on the scene,  but our citizens on the right that are supportive of Trump and his policies having NO interest in breaking from him or any cycle.   And the divisive rhetoric on the right only grows separting the country even further, and making Trump stronger.... "Breaking the cycle" is always the politically correct comment to make, but I am TIRED of hearing it.   Being politically correct has brought us to the verge of a dictatorship,  so perhaps its time for something else ?   I cant suggest what that is, since I have been struggling to find a solution, but with no success.   I think first and foremost you need people that WANT to break the cycle, and we dont have that presently.   It seems the right maintains their desire to "own the Libs",   their goal since day 1,  and Trump is their man to do it....with a huge helping hand from SCOTUS,  with today handing Trump another right to "fire whomever he chooses, even with NO cause".....    So tell me Sir lookin,  how the hell ya gonna break the cycle with many of those involved DONT WANT TO ?   

***A ray of sunshine however,  Kimmel will be BACK on air tomorrow,  so Freedom of Speech IS NOT DEAD YET !    

[Latbear4blk]

@lookin and @Suckrates,    I think we often exaggerate Trump’s responsibility for America’s divisions. To be clear, I find him abhorrent, but he is as much a symptom as he is a cause. His rise was made possible by a media ecosystem that prioritized ratings, clicks, and outrage over civic responsibility. And we shouldn’t ignore the role of Silicon Valley: algorithms have created fragmented echo chambers where we mostly see the news and opinions we already agree with. In that environment, someone like Trump didn’t just gain influence but he became inevitable. If we want to address polarization, we have to look beyond one man and confront the systems that profit from keeping us divided.

[Suckrates]

7 hours ago, Latbear4blk said:

@lookin and @Suckrates,    I think we often exaggerate Trump’s responsibility for America’s divisions. To be clear, I find him abhorrent, but he is as much a symptom as he is a cause. His rise was made possible by a media ecosystem that prioritized ratings, clicks, and outrage over civic responsibility. And we shouldn’t ignore the role of Silicon Valley: algorithms have created fragmented echo chambers where we mostly see the news and opinions we already agree with. In that environment, someone like Trump didn’t just gain influence but he became inevitable. If we want to address polarization, we have to look beyond one man and confront the systems that profit from keeping us divided.

Of course its the "enablers" that are aiding and abetting and keeping the man in power, because they ALL are profiting from his "reign"....   the people and enablers could easily end this and take Trump out, but they dont see that to their advantage.....But there are far too many people that want to give Trump a pass, or minimize his responsibility in the degradation and destruction of our country and its norms, and rule of law, which now are merely only WORDS.....

I am trying to remember that only about 1/3 of the country is in Trumps corner.... But the other 2/3 needs to get to work,  the future of America is depending on them...

And then comes the issue of Free and fair elections.   even if the 2/3 do their work,  Trump will most likely NOT allow himself to lose power, and its 2020 all over again,  but this time HE may succeed ?