Londoner

I wonder how many falangs are 100% honest with the guys they meet? How many promise, or imply, that they will pay more than they actually intend to? or find an excuse to pay less? or that they'll return to the bar tomorrow for a second "off"? Or over-egg their "pillow talk"? or give the impression that two or three nights of passion are the beginnings of a long-term relationship? We know the game the moment our planes land . We hold all the cards except one; the carnal one. As so often in our dealings with Thais, just smile.

"Tomorrow in my birthday."

Agate's prices at the moment are good value. I paid 1000 pn last month; and I'm paying 1,200 for my next trip (for which I cannot wait!) in November. No breakfast though; we ate at Zing. Charming staff there too! Agate's public areas are 4* plus, if that's important to you. They are to us. P and I would gaze at and appreciate all the exhibits in the glass cases in the corridors. Other Agate guests will know what I mean! And its two pools are a blessing if sprogs appear.... P and I always had the sea-water one to ourselves. As I always say, don't use Agoda or Booking; book direct with the hotel. Much cheaper.

I came to Pattaya in 1995 hoping to meet twinks in the 18-23 age group. I soon discovered that older guys were more technically proficient and spoke better English, transforming a forty minute transaction into a couple of hours which included chatting over a drink. I learnt a lot from them. Overall, better value.

In my experience, sex is fun while love can be very painful indeed. I honestly do not recommend it. If it happens, as it did to me, welcome it as a privilege but don't expect it to be as much fun as an hour with a MB. And it will be more costly- and I'm not just talking about money.

My abiding memory of a Thai Christmas was the distressing sight at our Krabi hotel of four polystyrene reindeer, originally white but turned dingy brown by the weather. It was in May. I assume that Christmas lasted all year there. My other Christmas -related memory was of my first visit in 1995; in those days, the baht-buses were the products of cottage industries and the roofs of the buses were recycled British Christmas tin-trays. Robins, snowmen etc. I was amused by the incongruity of seeing Father Christmas and Christmas trees on the way to Jomtien.

Yes. This site is for falangs, not Thais. Posters on this site (and I hope I'm one of them) often seek to present the views and experiences of Thai guys on the scene as best they can but we are merely reporters. Please take it from me; there are many guys out there who are sensitive to the manner in which they are treated . Appreciative often but sometimes hurt. The inability of most of us to speak Thai competently can prevent us from gaining insights into their feelings particularly since their ideal is to maintain a "jen yai"... a cool heart. This can mean not showing emotion. Sometimes they go back to their rooms quietly but deeply hurt and disappointed. Peter RS's post recounts a tale I've heard elsewhere and I expect everyone else has too; "Well, I payed for it and so I'm going to get it, however much it hurts him." And in one case, as recounted to me, the pain inflicted even gave enjoyment to the customer. We are paying for a service that can seem to be analogous to having a hair-cut but it is a lot more than that because of the intimacy of the transaction and the emotions aroused. None of us wants to be taken advantage of but nor do our hosts. If either party doesn't comply with the rules of the game, hurt is inevitable.

Gay falangs get a good deal in Thailand for 99% of the time. There's nowhere in the world where beautiful guys , a night out, good dinner and hotel are so cheap. And equally important, safe. The vast majority of us recognise this and are thankful for it. It was entirely reasonable for Min to show sensitivity and concern. There really are guys in desperate situations, the like of which few of us have faced. And sometimes we may be exploited. We make the decision to travel there, or even to live there; anyone not able to cope with the occasional (very occasional, in my twenty-five years experience) exploitative guy should stay at home and pay UK or US or European prices for beautiful guys, a night out and so on. We are in someone else's country, where the vast majority of citizens are much poorer than us. Put up with it. I hope we continue- and this forum suggests that most of us do- to take the seriously the feelings of the guys we meet, even if that sometimes makes us vulnerable to the occasional con-man. Just as Min did.

Almost impossible- very difficult- frustrating- still problematic; that is the trajectory I've followed since 1995. Back then ,of course, I had only a Thai-English dictionary to hand and so I suppose that it may be a little easier now. I tried learning Thai via a set of CDs. Unsuccessfully. The advice- from a Thai- is not even to try. In other places I've visited and tried to add a few words and expressions (I'm thinking of Swahili and Arabic in particular), my attempts have been applauded and taken as I intended.... a token of respect. But not in Thailand. Unless you are an expat, which poses particular problems, my advice is to let the guy do the translating. Speak English simply and slowly. Learning English is a benefit to young Thais anyway.

Language difficulties abound in our relationships with Thais. I can recall, even now, how hurt I was on a couple of occasions many years ago when my innocent and good-natured comments were completely misunderstood. I suspect that this is what happened with Min. A guy for whom English is a second- language will probably employ particular predictive phrases on his phone, sometimes choosing badly. And Shonen is correct about sarcasm. It's also true of teasing, which for us is is often an expression of affection. I once saw a falang teasing a waiter in a bar- a guy whom he'd offed frequently and rated very highly- by laughing at his new teeth-braces. It didn't end well.

Yes, that view may not be welcomed by all but it is accurate. Bearing in mind that most of us are....well, getting on, I wonder how many gay falangs want to be in bars at 0400? 0r 0300? 0r even 0200? When I was butterflying, it is true that sometimes I'd be in a bar with an expat mate until 0200. But those were nights when I hadn't caught any fish and I was compensating. Most of us- and I wait to be corrected- are "otherwise engaged" at that time. In my case, sleeping-obviously- but others I assume are nestled in the arms of a beautiful companion. A better place to be than in a noisy bar with a sound system that forbids talking to anybody.

I never looked for a LTR; indeed, I said after nine years and thirty or so trips to Thailand that I loved being a butterfly. The one falang I knew who was in involved such a relationship with a Thai guy was often deeply unhappy, for many reasons. And so when it happened, I was unprepared. And it didn't "happen" in one night, one week, or even one year. The relationship grew over a series of visits to Thailand. I believe that it was after three years that I first used the word "love". It was in a conversation with my oldest friend. The use of the word surprised us both. And so , in my case, the cliché of an old falang falling in lust after a couple of erotic encounters, just doesn't hold water.

The bottom line is that Thailand -our Thailand- needs more visitors. It really doesn't matter whence they come; they provide the money which finances our activities. Be glad!

Interesting. My experience of being with Thai gay guys is that Thai boyfriends are not popular, at least when falang ones (and their wallets) are available. P admits to having had only one before I stumbled into his life, and like others I've met, says that such relationships aren't common because of a reluctance of young Thai guys to be faithful. I remember a number of mbs- gay ones, I must stress since I kept clear of straight one as far as possible- telling me that they'd had gay sex only with falangs. I found (and still find) that surprising.

I know this was an unpopular view on another forum but one of the reasons why Sunee became a dark, depressing and near-deserted area a few years ago , was the closure of the shisha bars. They'd added colour and vibrancy (harmlessly to us, I hasten to add|) but for some- not on this board- their very presence was an affront. I know it wasn't a gay forum that finished Sunee but let's just say it didn't exactly help to keep the area alive. " Be not deceived....as ye sow so shall ye reap."

I can inform Vessey that LHR T2 was crowded four weeks ago, with long queues and no early check-in. Business Class travellers were given a priority check-in desk and separate immigration and security facilities. I suspect that the queues were long there, too. Arriving passengers were also faced with the longest queues I've ever seen, though my luggage awaited me. I expected that to be an issue.

Nothing much to add to vinapu's comprehensive (and accurate) post except to underline the fact that the Jomtien Complex is the only gay area left in Pattaya, Phuket, Bangkok or Chiang Mai, where there is a real sense of vibrancy comparable to that of the Good Old Days. And yes, Terminus 21 and Central have an array of restaurants at all prices that would keep anyone happy. Predominantly Asian cuisines, of course.

I stopped obsessing about the nature and the worth of my relationship with P long ago, realising that, however unsatisfactory, disappointing and even painful it can be, it was the best that either of us could expect ever to have. And so we should be grateful. I no longer worry about its origins in a Pattaya bar, the thousands of miles that separate us, nor the fact that he maintains his decent standard of living only because of my ability to support him. What this relationship is now, it has always been and always will be, up to separation by death. And since he believes in the transmigration of souls, for him, even beyond.

Your post has awakened some memories for me, not all of them pleasant. The steps I took to hide my feelings (not my actions, I hasten to add) embarrass me in recollection. At the same time, I was aware of two associates at work who, I believed at the time, were harbouring similar secrets. They both married and had children. I thank God for Pattaya every day of my life. To sit in Panorama of an evening a, surrounded by like-minded guys, and watch the go go dancers joking and making eyes at us on their way to work, with an evening of fun ahead...if I could choose where to spend eternity, it would be there. Younger posters may find it hard to comprehend just how liberating Pattaya was to my generation, who had spent some of the best years of our lives in the closet.

P is due to visit soon. I haven't any fears about "showing" him to neighbours. Next door, one of two sons is gay (and cute!) and opposite live two women whose sexuality is no secret. But that's London for you! However, P was twenty-one when we met eighteen years ago. I'm not sure I'd be so relaxed if he were still so young. And I know he wouldn't be; it's something we've often discussed.

Not in this case....at least, the twin had a wife and a daughter. But who knows? My generation is full of closet-dwellers. After all, I was forty-five before I had gay sex. One thing I've mentioned before is that I was struck , on my first visit to Pattaya where I met other men for whom gay sex had come late to their lives. Very late in the case of one guy, who was in his late seventies when his wife died. He came straight to Pattaya where I'd see him frequently walking through Boyztown, hand -in hand with a young Thai. I found it touching.

Olddaddy is correct; sadly. An old friend died recently; I was the only person in the world who knew he was gay, apart from a few mbs I persuaded him to meet on trips To Thailand with me. When I was at his funeral, I looked around at the mourners, family and friends, and realised that I was the only person at that grave-side who "knew" him, including two brothers, one of whom was a twin. It was a feeling both disconcerting and depressing.

Old age has its blessings...possibly...but one problem in store for you youngsters, if you stay healthy, is to see your friends and family die before you. Make the most of these relationships while you can.

I didn't mention this but an old Italian guy was sweet to us....I think he too felt the unease. P and I didn't discuss it until after lunch; we both felt it simultaneously. By the way, P was about thirty-two at the time. I concur with a-447 as regards Pattaya. And Chiang Mai and Krabi though a Phuket khatoey show girl was offensive to him once in Patong's Walking Street.. probably out of jealousy!

As a newbie, in olden times, I was diffident being seen in a MB's company. When I offed a guy, I whisked him into Ambiance or wherever as fast as I could. After years of this, I met P and recall taking him to Tuc Com to buy a phone- yes, yes, I know that's a cliché- and suddenly realised that it was the first time I'd ventured out of Boyztown with a companion. Now I don't give a d**n, whether it be Thailand, Laos, Bali and (I hope) London soon. But the memory of that couple on the Phi Phi trip still vexes me. And P as well, who'd been looking forward to that day for a long time.