Bob

Yes, interesting article. I got the biggest kick out of this portion: "And yet, still, it is taboo to regard sex and money as inextricably interwoven, to openly speak of them together. Why is sex supposed to be free? It never is. Ask anyone. Like Sebastian Horsley, England

There's a big difference from the "bars", their owners, and their lower employees. We all know (I hope anyway) that a fair number of the bar boys are using drugs (and, specifically, yaba). I've known a mamasan who sold yaba occasionally to some of the boys in the bar (but, in that case, I also know that the owner doesn't know that this is occuring - I know this as many of them in that bar have been friends for a decade or so). If the owner of that particular bar knew what I knew, he'd surely discharge the mamasan (as he's discharged boys before for violating his "no drugs on premises" policy). GT indicates that some of the "bars" do supply the drugs and I wonder if he would advise if, in those cases, the owners are involved. I'm sure it can happen but, as a rule, it'd be hard for me to believe that most of the owners are dumb enough to get involved with handling, supplying, or selling the drugs themselves. The wide-spread use of yaba and other illicit drugs is a problem throughout Thai society and certainly not limited to prostitution enterprises. I'm personally aware that the drug use is rampant at two well-known universities but it's certainly not the professors or administrative people that are condoning or promoting that use (although it's probably likely that some teachers and even some administrators probably occasionally use drugs themeselves - as it's all over the place). My guess is the same problem exists at most other universities and colleges (but I only personally know about the two places). I've known a cop or two here in Michigan who have sold the stuff (one of them belonged to a multi-county narcotics squad!). But I also know that their superiors knew nothing about it (well, except in one case where one cop was arrested by his own boss and later received a substantial prison sentence mainly because he was a cop in the first place). And I'd guess that there are Thai cops involved in the drug trade too. My guess is there likely are even some older falang who dabble occasionally with yaba. But, by and large, as in most societies, the heavier drug use revolves around those in their teens and twenties. Thailand is likely no different.

I read just fine. It's the logic that defies, well, logic.

Amen, KT....although I don't think the US has any monopoly on it. Ever since the early 1990's, it seems everybody has an excuse for everything. Yea, Judge, I shot the guy but I watched too many violent video games or my grandmother beat me when I was a child. I couldn't help myself. I'm not that kind of person. I only got mad for a minute or two. I shouldn't have drank that much (or smoked that much crack cocaine). Just once, I'd like to see somebody come into court, stand up straight, and say: Yes, Judge, I did it. I fucked up. Sorry. [i probably wouldn't gag when I hear the name Bernie Madoff if he had chosen to publicly say something like that]

I'm not sure if it's actually legal to use the word "straight" in describing GT.....

Well, ya gotta admit that Tarantino is a bit strange in the first place. Saw him on one of the late night shows last night (he's making the rounds to plug the movie) and he's somewhat fascinating to watch. Difficult to tell if he's going to be funny, inciteful, or if his head is going to explode.

There are always exceptions to every rule and we obviously can't cover every hypothetical situation; however, generally I agree with the statement. I just am not going to get trapped applying morals (yours, mine, the Mormans', or whoever's) to consensual sexual activity. Presuming we're using "morals" to mean what we personally believe is appropriate conduct (versus religions' views of the topic), I can agree that, at least according to my standards, furnishing dangerous drugs (and yaba is one of them) to anybody would offend my beliefs. But I still see no rational or factual basis to insinuate that the bar owners are doing it or condoning it - and that's where this thread was derailed a bit in my view.

Amazing Thai justice.....as usual. Not sure if you all missed it but one of their cohorts turned states evidence and testified that, yes, it was a plot to kill Shinawatra and that's why they were in wait along his motorcade route. There's no doubt I'm a cynical bastard when it comes to Thailand's government and elite. What I believe (no, I can't prove it) is that, as usual, this was all done to protect the higher ups who ordered the hit. There's no way these lower level officers decided on their own to make the hit, they were put up to it.

While I probably should have said "dee gwa" (and could have used chan versus pom), it's basically that "the dog loved me more/better...."

Attempting to steal a line from Tommy Smothers and using my pidgeon Thai: Chai krap, dtae maa rak pom gwa!

I absolutely agree. So, by extension of your logic, we're also responsible for the boys using drugs? Hell! I figured it would eventually get around to me! The goddam priests were right, I'm responsible for everything and going to hell! While I can deal with illegality and concepts like that, I'm not dabbling in the morality game. That's for the religious and right wing in my country and they can have it. While the puritans thought sex was dirty and, by extension, the sex trade a dirty and evil (immoral?) business, I'm not constrained by that thinking. Sex is fun and it's not my problem that others find it offensive, immoral, or evil. Their problem, not mine. Drug use is another issue and, while sex workers do use drugs, the only connection is that those sex workers are within the same age group that rampantly is using drugs in Thai society. I occasionally make purchases at the 18 trillion 7/11 joints in Thailand, which joints tend to hire workers within the age group that is most prone to use drugs. Without their earnings from those stores, they wouldn't have the money to buy drugs. So, I guess any of you that enters upon the frigid premises of the local 7/11 store ought to know that you might as well be leading the donkey over the Burmese border laden down with sacks of yaba pills. Or, as Emily Latella so famously said, never mind!

Just a little bit of reverse logic there....and it doesn't pass the muster test. Let's get right down to it - are you saying that the bar owners/management are assisting staff in using drugs? If so, what scintilla of evidence do you have to support that? We normally don't make charges of conduct like that (especially criminal conduct) without some basis for the statement. And answering the question with a question (such as "what proof do you have that they are not doing it?") is rather foreign logic in my view. For example, I have no proof that the bar owners are not requiring each employee to have sex with soi dogs. Yet, without some basis to say it, I'd be a fool for claiming it might be true.

Based on what I've heard over the years from barboys and those that know many of them, the yaba problem is downright huge. If any fair number of them are using the drug, then it's likely, due to peer pressure (and many of them live together), that the majority of them are using it. I'd note that I have no proof of this at all, just what I've been told by others (and I've also been told that yaba use at the college level - including in Khon Kaen and Chiangmai - is rather significant). It's an expensive proposition for an employer to drug test and I'm not sure that most of the bar owners could even afford it (I don't know but I'm doubtful that most of the bars make much of anything in profits). Here in the states, drug testing is common for those doing potentially dangerous work - such as driving a truck - but it's extremely rare for employees in general (and especially staff in bars or restaurants). There's probably less drug testing in the workplace now than when it began to become popular a decade or so ago - and most drug testing is limited to those employment situations where state law or federal law mandates it. Overall, I can't see putting the onus on the bar owners for this. But it's a fair argument that, unless the employers do it, nothing much will change. But that argument, fair or not, is a far cry from suggesting that bar owners encourage or condone the drug use [i.e., yes, they could test and stop most of the use by their particular employees (or, alternatively, be put in the situation of discharging a fair number of them) but not testing is not the equivalent of making the bar owners responsible for the drug use in the first place].

Exactly. Calling it "special" protection is only an acknowledgment as to how screwed up their culture is towards gays.

I've got no bone to pick with lvdkeyes, only with the statement. I simply don't cotton to people insinuating something outlandish with no (zero) evidence. Come on, insinuating that some of the bar owners are assisting with or condoning drug use by their boys so it'll improve sexual performance, dancing, or whatever, so the bar owners can make more money off of them? Yea, sure, and there were 47 guys on the grassy knoll in Dallas, the attack on the twin towers was an inside job, and they never really landed on the moon....

What's "far fetched" is even making that statement.

That'd be fine by me - and that's what would happen in almost all modern countries. And, as a special Thai sidelight, how about issuing them special uniforms - speedo-like shorts with numbers on them so they can get an adequate drift of what their underaged employees so enjoyed.

An airplane was in distress and going down for the count. A lady passenger started screaming: "I need to feel like a complete woman at least once in my life! Which man on this flight will help me?" A buff dude across the aisle yells: "I sure as hell will!" He stands up and, as he walks over to the woman, he rips off his shirt and starts flexing his biceps. He then tosses her the shirt and says: "Now, wash this shirt and get me a beer!"

On occasion - one good example would be the Loy Krathong parade in Chiangmai - I'll engage in some friendly contest with Thai friends as to who is or isn't a ladyboy. I can guess fairly easily if I can see the typical male shoulders or adam's apple but, when those features aren't fairly pronounced, I'm wrong at least half of the time - and Thai friends (who seem to always know 100%) just shake their heads at this "ting tong" falang for not knowing the "obvious." I attended the performances at Simon Caberet in Chiangmai a couple of times before it closed and some of those performers were absolutely stunning. On one occasion, our seats were right at the end of the runway and the performers ended up right above and maybe three feet in front of us - and, to this day, I'm dumbfounded as to how many of them were able to totally hide their equipment in the skimpy bikini briefs (and, yea, I was looking....). While I don't get (understand) ladyboys, there are some out there that are as gorgeous as any ladies anywhere (but perhaps I'm biased because they have the Thai features).

I don't understand ladyboys but I'd think it would be rather rude to address them in any plural fashion. Just as rude to address a bisexual in the plural. They're not hung up about their sexuality and I see no reason anybody else ought to be. We don't (or, in my opinion) shouldn't address anybody by their sexuality or gender. Should I address or call Brad Pitt as "Mr. Straight Fucker" or "Mr. Dick With Two Balls" or some other terms so I'm accurately describing his sexuality or gender? Address them politely and you'll get along fine; better yet, call them by their name.

I'm a bit puzzled too - I don't use travel agents anymore since it's just as easy (and cheaper) to use the internet. I'm not aware of any "bargains" available using the various airlines within Thailand so I'm not sure that any "expedia" type website would help anyway. For their promotions, go to the airlines' websites and/or get on their mailing lists. I get Air Asia email promotions at least once a month (and, of course, I'm never able to use the deals offerred).

Allen and David in Pattaya were helpful to me when I first hit the shores of the Land of Smiles and, for that, I'll always be grateful. A great guy - may he rest in peace. As GB said, I've admired the manner in which TJ, PM, and others cared for Allen. He was a lucky man.

Sounds like a George Carlin thought. And, in honor of him (and our shared appreciation of his weirdly wonderful thinking), heres: HOLY GHOST ENEMA

Well, do you buy this one (found it somewhere on the net): Blowing Smoke Up Your Ass.....

Nah, sometimes it's so obvious that only a simpleton like me can get it.