MAGA is the new CRUEL. Shame on you, assholes.

[stevenkesslar]

GOP megabill’s final score: $3.4T in red ink and 10 million kicked off health insurance, CBO says

The package President Donald Trump signed on July 4 would grow the deficit over the next 10 years, Congress’ nonpartisan scorekeeper predicts.

These assholes are cruel.   They can believe whatever they want about Epstein and Q.  But it ain't gonna change $3.4 trillion in yet more debt to suck off Elon Musk.  Ugh!   10 million people will lose health care thanks to Trump wanting to enrich himself and his family and his donors.

What cruel assholes!  Epstein will be the least of their problems.   People understand cruelty when they see it.

The true Trump GOP.

White male assholes who love power and money.   And are more than willing to be cruel to get it and keep it.

 

 

 

[Suckrates]

53 minutes ago, stevenkesslar said:

GOP megabill’s final score: $3.4T in red ink and 10 million kicked off health insurance, CBO says

The package President Donald Trump signed on July 4 would grow the deficit over the next 10 years, Congress’ nonpartisan scorekeeper predicts.

These assholes are cruel.   They can believe whatever they want about Epstein and Q.  But it ain't gonna change $3.4 trillion in yet more debt to suck off Elon Musk.  Ugh!   10 million people will lose health care thanks to Trump wanting to enrich himself and his family and his donors.

What cruel assholes!  Epstein will be the least of their problems.   People understand cruelty when they see it.

The true Trump GOP. 

 

 

 

In all fairness MOST people love power and money, but few are able to attain it....  

White male assholes who love power and money.   And are more than willing to be cruel to get it and keep it.     Perhaps thats the "secret sauce"  ?      But most people dont seemed bothered at the notion of losing health insurance and heath care over a TEN YEAR period....   Thats way too far ahead for them to think about.   How does it affect them NOW ?    They dont feel anything at all.......YET.

I dont think people are seeing them as cruel, no matter how much the Dems beat that dead horse.....  People are seeing govt as a "business" and the govt is making the moves any typical business would.   I think that's how they see it......  Even if the Dems blabber on in political speak about the horrors of each Trump policy,  they just sound like politicians saying partisan political things.....  Americans tune out !     Once again, I repeat that fever may grow as policys "take effect"  and people FEEL IT?  Thats when the hysteria starts,  buts the GOP has orchestrated it so that it will be a long while before that happens.  In the meantime THEY take there victory laps, and high-five each other for bringing P2024 to fruition.    Congrats ASSHOLES !   

[stevenkesslar]

10 hours ago, Suckrates said:

Thats way too far ahead for them to think about. 

Sis, just run with me on this for one paragraph.  This is an exercise in fear and greed and imagination.

You are in a public restroom alone.  Suddenly Mamdani walks in.  You smile at him.  He smiles back with that winning smile.  You rub your fingers on your lips in a certain slow ladylike manner.  He goes and locks the door.  The next thing you know he pushes you down on your knees. He unzips.  Is this even possible?  This gorgeous well hung uncut cock is dangling in front of you.  Dripping in precum.  Erect enough to look challenging, but soft enough to look possible.  You lean back.  You ingest.

Now, granted, we are both OLD queers with somewhat vivid imaginations.  This is not what some MAGA dude dreams about.  Even so, let's not sell them short.  It may not be real.  It may even sound impossible.  But surely they have imaginations?

And when it comes to cock sucking, let's face facts.  We are as greedy as can be.  But now think about fear.  Even more powerful.

How is it even possible that Obamacare was not implemented until 2014.  And yet Democrats got shellacked in 2010 because of it?  Years before anyone could say they felt any impact from anything?

I think the right answer is fear.  People react to fear.  Obamacare and 2010 is one example.  But let's get a bit more current.  Trump in 2016.  Fear.  Trump in 2024.  Fear.

Now, you may be right.  But I think greed and fear can explain all kinds of things that don't really make sense.  Like the last six months of the stock market, maybe?

That said, if it comes down to Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries, we agree.  But surely if Mamdani got you all hot and bothered about taking away something you value - perhaps your virginity? - you might get extremely excited.

Then again, we both lost our virginity long ago.  So maybe I just have too vivid an imagination.

[Suckrates]

4 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

Sis, just run with me on this for one paragraph.  This is an exercise in fear and greed and imagination.

You are in a public restroom alone.  Suddenly Mamdani walks in.  You smile at him.  He smiles back with that winning smile.  You rub your fingers on your lips in a certain slow ladylike manner.  He goes and locks the door.  The next thing you know he pushes you down on your knees. He unzips.  Is this even possible?  This gorgeous well hung uncut cock is dangling in front of you.  Dripping in precum.  Erect enough to look challenging, but soft enough to look possible.  You lean back.  You ingest.

Now, granted, we are both OLD queers with somewhat vivid imaginations.  This is not what some MAGA dude dreams about.  Even so, let's not sell them short.  It may not be real.  It may even sound impossible.  But surely they have imaginations?

And when it comes to cock sucking, let's face facts.  We are as greedy as can be.  But now think about fear.  Even more powerful.

How is it even possible that Obamacare was not implemented until 2014.  And yet Democrats got shellacked in 2010 because of it?  Years before anyone could say they felt any impact from anything?

I think the right answer is fear.  People react to fear.  Obamacare and 2010 is one example.  But let's get a bit more current.  Trump in 2016.  Fear.  Trump in 2024.  Fear.

Now, you may be right.  But I think greed and fear can explain all kinds of things that don't really make sense.  Like the last six months of the stock market, maybe?

That said, if it comes down to Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries, we agree.  But surely if Mamdani got you all hot and bothered about taking away something you value - perhaps your virginity? - you might get extremely excited.

Then again, we both lost our virginity long ago.  So maybe I just have too vivid an imagination.

Certainly Trumps operation is all about FEAR,   always WAS and always will be.....   but I still dont think Americans can "imagine" their lives without access to healthcare and insurance since its something they most probably grew up with, OR just have had for a large part of their lives.   In that sense they cant FEAR it since its unknown.   BUT as soon as they DONT/WONT have it,  its a diff ballgame for them.   Dictators operate and succeed off FEAR.   Trumps certainly got his act together on that.    He's gotten VERY good at being VERY bad......for the most part its got ten mixed reviews depending on what media or poll you follow....  But one thing is CERTAIN,  he aint stopping any time soon, and the signals are that the situation will get much worse.   GOP Congress and Senate have abandoned their duties and just allow Trump all their consolidated power.   They have no inclination or desire to "get in his way"    And he as well has sucked up all the powers from every other branch and dept of govt,  so basically "it's ALL Trump, every day in every way."    And pushback doesnt seem to be working, although there are still some court decisions against him, I suspect that will all end soon too with SCOTUS recent decision on lower courts power, or lack of ?       So while I have a great imagination, and LOVE hot T-room sex, I still dont see Americans CARING  until "the haves become the have nots"..... And thats a long way off.   But that WONT stop me from dreaming of the one thing that ENDS the Trump game....However THAT is up to the higher power !   👼

[stevenkesslar]

6 hours ago, Suckrates said:

I still dont see Americans CARING  until "the haves become the have nots"..... And thats a long way off. 

Or not.

I do think we are talking about two groups of people.  Although they do overlap.  

You're posts are often targeted to what I think of as the cult.  This whole Epstein thing has made even clearer to me that I have no real understanding of what makes them tick.  Although if I had to describe it, I might say anger or rage or cynicism.  Some polls suggested up to 20 % of Americans believed the QAnon nonsense.  Like Democrats and the Deep State drink the blood of children, blah blah blah. 

So you are largely right that these people are ........................... what was the word? .....................the deplorables.  I do think its true that a lot of them may simply not vote in 2026 or even 2028.  Trump was like their shaman.  They are kind of losing faith.  And he will kind of not be on the ballot.  

One other thing I take out of the Epstein freak show is that if the Republican Party can go this bat shit crazy over some dead predator, imagine what could happen if it is about something real:  losing health insurance, going hungry, hospitals and grocery stores in rural areas closing.  I understand your point about it is not real until it happens.  But past midterms do suggest voters do have imaginations, and fear.  Obama did get shellacked in 2010 thanks to nonexistent Obamacare.  Trump got shellacked in 2018 simply because people were pissed that he tried to repeal Obamacare.  

But the most important point is that it's not about the haves becoming the have nots.  It's about the have nots briefly becoming the haves.  At least in the sense that they finally have affordable health insurance.  And now they are being told, Guess what?  We promised to lower your prices.  But instead we are throwing you right back into that hole you lived in.  You remember what it was like to NOT have insurance, dumb fuck, don't you?  You know what it's like to go bankrupt, don't you,, dumb fuck?  

Granted, they won't call them dumb fucks.  But it really does not take much imagination at all to believe this ain't gonna go down well.  Working class people ain't dumb fucks.  They know very well what this means.  I know this as a former community organizer.  I know it even better as a landlord to mostly working class people.  I always ignore a bankruptcy or debt collection when it is based on medical bills.  It is less common than it used to be, precisely thanks to Obamacare and Medicaid expansion.  Believe me.  If you talk to a working class Mom of any race with kids, she knows all about this. 

Medicaid Expansion is a Red and Blue State Issue

Quote

As of March 2024, over 21 million people were enrolled through the Medicaid expansion representing nearly a quarter of enrollment across all states and about three in ten Medicaid enrollees in expansion states (Figure 2). Medicaid expansion enrollment totaled 7.3 million in states that voted for Trump and 13.7 million in states that voted for Harris

Quote

In the ten states that have not adopted Medicaid expansion, an estimated 1.4 million individuals remain in the coverage gap.

 

I have a hard time keeping all the distinctions between various health programs straight.  And many people think of it as "MediCal" rather than "Medicaid".  But I'm pretty sure if you are on the losing end of the equation, there's a good chance you already have an inkling of what is is coming.

And as if to prove my point, I unexpectedly got a call from a niece I don't here from much today.  Happily, she is one of my liberal Democrat relatives.  Like I got a text from her last Fall or her nine year old daughter at a Harris rally.  She is absolutely freaking out her family losing health care subsidies.  She is self-employed and her hubby is a blue collar guy.   I told her that I thought they times this kick in after the midterms.  And she said as far as he knows she is at risk of paying a lot more as of January 2026.  Whether she is right or not, it is definitely on her radar.

She's a liberal Democrat, as I said.  Maybe if she were an Independent she wouldn't notice.  In this context, I think what matters is she's a Mom with a kid.  I think Moms with kids are going to notice.

[Suckrates]

4 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

Or not.

I do think we are talking about two groups of people.  Although they do overlap.  

You're posts are often targeted to what I think of as the cult.  This whole Epstein thing has made even clearer to me that I have no real understanding of what makes them tick.  Although if I had to describe it, I might say anger or rage or cynicism.  Some polls suggested up to 20 % of Americans believed the QAnon nonsense.  Like Democrats and the Deep State drink the blood of children, blah blah blah. 

So you are largely right that these people are ........................... what was the word? .....................the deplorables.  I do think its true that a lot of them may simply not vote in 2026 or even 2028.  Trump was like their shaman.  They are kind of losing faith.  And he will kind of not be on the ballot.  

One other thing I take out of the Epstein freak show is that if the Republican Party can go this bat shit crazy over some dead predator, imagine what could happen if it is about something real:  losing health insurance, going hungry, hospitals and grocery stores in rural areas closing.  I understand your point about it is not real until it happens.  But past midterms do suggest voters do have imaginations, and fear.  Obama did get shellacked in 2010 thanks to nonexistent Obamacare.  Trump got shellacked in 2018 simply because people were pissed that he tried to repeal Obamacare.  

But the most important point is that it's not about the haves becoming the have nots.  It's about the have nots briefly becoming the haves.  At least in the sense that they finally have affordable health insurance.  And now they are being told, Guess what?  We promised to lower your prices.  But instead we are throwing you right back into that hole you lived in.  You remember what it was like to NOT have insurance, dumb fuck, don't you?  You know what it's like to go bankrupt, don't you,, dumb fuck?  

Granted, they won't call them dumb fucks.  But it really does not take much imagination at all to believe this ain't gonna go down well.  Working class people ain't dumb fucks.  They know very well what this means.  I know this as a former community organizer.  I know it even better as a landlord to mostly working class people.  I always ignore a bankruptcy or debt collection when it is based on medical bills.  It is less common than it used to be, precisely thanks to Obamacare and Medicaid expansion.  Believe me.  If you talk to a working class Mom of any race with kids, she knows all about this. 

Medicaid Expansion is a Red and Blue State Issue

 

I have a hard time keeping all the distinctions between various health programs straight.  And many people think of it as "MediCal" rather than "Medicaid".  But I'm pretty sure if you are on the losing end of the equation, there's a good chance you already have an inkling of what is is coming.

And as if to prove my point, I unexpectedly got a call from a niece I don't here from much today.  Happily, she is one of my liberal Democrat relatives.  Like I got a text from her last Fall or her nine year old daughter at a Harris rally.  She is absolutely freaking out her family losing health care subsidies.  She is self-employed and her hubby is a blue collar guy.   I told her that I thought they times this kick in after the midterms.  And she said as far as he knows she is at risk of paying a lot more as of January 2026.  Whether she is right or not, it is definitely on her radar.

She's a liberal Democrat, as I said.  Maybe if she were an Independent she wouldn't notice.  In this context, I think what matters is she's a Mom with a kid.  I think Moms with kids are going to notice.

I suppose the moral to this story is "they'll Notice when they notice"......  every person will be affected differently and at diff times.    Yes sources say healthcare premiums will be rising substantially in 2026.   But people with structured healthcare are used to ANNUAL premium increases, albeit the one coming for 2026 might be unprecedently HIGHER ?      Bottom line, Trump has created a horrible Age, NOT the golden Age.  His supporters will smile and swallow and as usual Believe his rhetoric that he has ushered in some Wonderful Era,   while the rest of us know the truth, and fight it anyway we can....  I dont think there is much that anyone can do until a time IF/when Trump is out of office ?     And by then,  i'll be in one of those mental institutions Trump always talks about people coming from.    

[Suckrates]

4 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

Or not.

I do think we are talking about two groups of people.  Although they do overlap.  

You're posts are often targeted to what I think of as the cult.  This whole Epstein thing has made even clearer to me that I have no real understanding of what makes them tick.  Although if I had to describe it, I might say anger or rage or cynicism.  Some polls suggested up to 20 % of Americans believed the QAnon nonsense.  Like Democrats and the Deep State drink the blood of children, blah blah blah. 

 

When we discuss Trump voters,  I believe that the only Trump voters that dont actually support him are the "Trump dissent" voters,  the ones who voted for him ONLY to harm the Dems or because the couldn't/wouldn't vote for a BLACK WOMAN.....

In my POV, all other Trump voters support him in some way and like/align with his policies,  eventhough they understand the dangers of his administration, but they DONT CARE.    They find him entertaining,  or they give him the benefit of doubt, or simply a chance, and believe he IS being persecuted by the left and a Deep State. 

You gotta hand it to Trump.... For all the Horrible things HE IS........he is a GREAT salesman !   and he knows HOW to peddle a LIE.    

[stevenkesslar]

4 hours ago, Suckrates said:

You gotta hand it to Trump.... For all the Horrible things HE IS........he is a GREAT salesman ! 

I think of Mark Halperin as one of the best political journalists today.  He says the best politician of his life is Bill Clinton, bar none.  He says Trump is the second best.

Halperin has a good point.  Especially after 2024.  There is an objective test, which is simple.  Can you get elected POTUS?  Then can you get elected twice?  The three living examples are Clinton, Obama, and Trump.  So the interesting question to Halperin would be why do you put Trump before Obama?  I think the answer is that Halperin thinks of politicians as feral political animals who will do whatever it takes to survive.  And can somehow read the room well enough to cobble together a coalition that wins.  Trump has done that, barely, twice.  Personally, I'd rate Obama higher.  But that's just my opinion.

On the issue of health care, something did seem to shift.  Trump was saying pretty loudly this Spring that Republicans should not cut Medicaid.  And they should do these small ball populist working class things like "no tax on tips".  Ultimately he did agree with a bunch of harsh health care and food cuts that I am sure he knows screw many of his voters.  Even though they will all pretend it is just weeding out the unworthy.  Except for a few guys like Tillis.  Who is essentially being the prophet saying this is going to end badly for us, guys.

I think it probably goes to Halperin's point.  Trump has proven he is an effective politician.  He must have decided that if he wanted to get a bill passed with a very narrow Republican majority, he needed the votes of the White Guy core of the party.  They always want to cut all this government waste and hand out tax cuts.  And they tend to represent ruby red districts where they can win easily.  

Trump probably does think he can just bullshit his way through it.  If he does, my guess is he is delusional.  That's not a shocker.   

Trump himself has said he won in 2024 thanks to two things:  high prices, and the border.  His campaign co-manager Chris LaCivita said the same thing.  His pollster Tony Fabrizio said they modeled the electorate and figured out how they could cobble together enough votes to win.  So that would include Black and especially Brown voters who are pissed off about prices and rent.  They are all saying the same thing.  Prices and inflation and affordability drove his narrow win. 

I personally buy all these studies that claim to have proven that some core of Trump voters are Whites who feel racial animus and see Trump and "Make America Great Again" in racial terms.  You may call them "dissent" voters.  But whatever we call them, they are NOT going to vote for the Obama Party or the Harris Party.  And maybe that is what Trump himself thinks.  He's got them, no matter what he does.

It's just not true.  And the math is simple.  In three elections he has never won the majority of the vote.  The people who actually won the thing - Trump, LaCivita, Fabrizio - are guys who like to brag.  And they brag that we won this thing thanks to prices.  Susie Wiles is smart enough to just keep her mouth shit.

Prices and affordability are, of course, why Mamdani won a very different campaign in NYC.  So maybe they really have convinced themselves that prices don't matter after elections.  And no one will notice health care and food costs.  But if that's what they think, I do think Tillis was prophetic.  They are in for a big surprise.

Lots of moderate Republicans in swing districts know this.  They were the ones saying these cuts will impact our voters and will be a kiss of death.

I'm sure you are right that Trump will try to sell this like it's the best deal for the working class ever.  But the polls say they ain't buying.  More important, we have two real world examples of how well Trump, as President, call sell bad policies that hurt people:  2018, and 2020.  He could not close the deal either year.  He is better as an outsider railing against Obama or Biden than he is as a leader.  What a shock!

[Suckrates]

1 hour ago, stevenkesslar said:

 

Lots of moderate Republicans in swing districts know this.  They were the ones saying these cuts will impact our voters and will be a kiss of death.

I'm sure you are right that Trump will try to sell this like it's the best deal for the working class ever.  But the polls say they ain't buying.  More important, we have two real world examples of how well Trump, as President, call sell bad policies that hurt people:  2018, and 2020.  He could not close the deal either year.  He is better as an outsider railing against Obama or Biden than he is as a leader.  What a shock!

Which always leads me back to the crux of Trumps alure for Republicans is his CRUSADE against the Libs, whom they believe are the center of all THEIR problems.   

Perhaps thats why this Epstein thing is so meteoric,  Trump promised to clean up the Epstein swamp and expose all corrupt, evil and complicit LIBS,  and after he wins the WH,  he backs off and says "Nothing there."   Being lied to would certainly ERODE my support and Trust !   

Furthermore, Trump has turned this whole Epstein shit into such a Farcical Whodunit,  to which HIS manufactured answer is "WASN'T ME" , when he is looking GUILTY as Fuck is Entertaining......   And entertaining is one of his very few skill sets that his supporters LOVE. 

And although cowardly evangelical Mike Johnson  SHUT DOWN the Congress in duty to Trump to avoid taking a vote on releasing ALL the files, and thinking it will all blow over when Congress resumes in Sept.......   Well guess again Mikey.... Dems wont let you off the hook by letting this die.  So buckle up Sweetie,  congress may be taking a vote on YOUR leadership,  again..?..

[stevenkesslar]

52 minutes ago, Suckrates said:

Which always leads me back to the crux of Trumps allure for Republicans is his CRUSADE against the Libs, whom they believe are the center of all THEIR problems. 

Exactly.  Although I might say the GOVERNMENT or the DEEP STATE.  Doesn't everyone love California gay liberals?  🙄   

Like I said above, I have seen polls that say 1 in 5 voters actually buy this extreme QAnon stuff.  Like secret cabals of Epstein-like vampires who drink the blood of children.  Who knows.  It may be that they view that the same way they view Trump:  seriously, but not literally.  It is all a reaction to the Deep State.

What seems clear is that most of Trump's supporters are prouder of the US than ever.  And they feel democracy is doing fine.  This is the America they want.  And they are centered in Gen X.  So I have to assume for most of them middle aged life is going pretty well.  They don't rely on Medicaid.  And they would rather have a tax cut, thank you.  Even if it just means a small tax cut by not paying taxes on tips or being able to deduct car loan interest.

What does seem likely is that there is this large segment of swing voters or Independents or cynics or whatever you want to call them that don't trust either party.  And may be inclined to vote against whoever is in power.  If I had to target one group, I'd say Zoomers.  Had young voters voted the same way as in 2020, Harris would be POTUS.  And Democrats would run the House.  But even that would not have helped in Montana or Ohio with Senate seats.

The very hard question is this:  what do Democrats have to do to win Iowa again?   It is where Obama rose to power.  He won the state twice.  Before Tim Walz was Kamala's lib running mate, he was a moderate Democrat from rural Minnesota that the NRA could work with. 

My guess is you are mostly right.  It is going to have to be in their face that losing health insurance and closed hospitals and food banks that are overrun are not what they voted for.  And even with that Democrats will have to say, with credibility, that they have some better alternative.

Doesn't a mental institution almost sound like a simpler alternative?  🤪   Or believing The Storm will come and rescue us from this cruelty?

[Suckrates]

1 hour ago, stevenkesslar said:

What seems clear is that most of Trump's supporters are prouder of the US than ever.  And they feel democracy is doing fine.  This is the America they want. 

Perhaps THEIR redefinition of Democracy is doing fine.......  where freedom of speech is suppressed,  where public TV is cancelled, where people are profiled and "disappeared" from the streets,  where Due process is denied, where the Uber-rich get assistance while average Americans are deprived and suffer,  where a LIE carries more weight than the TRUTH,   where military patrol our streets to prevent dissent and peaceful protest......   THATS their NEW democracy,  and if THAT is what they voted for, then Trump is doing a GREAT job....  So what up with the poll numbers ?  

[stevenkesslar]

1 hour ago, Suckrates said:

THATS their NEW democracy,  and if THAT is what they voted for, then Trump is doing a GREAT job....  So what up with the poll numbers ?  

Not sure what that question means, but this was an interesting article on Trump and polls.

A Polling Analyst Digs Into Trump’s Ratings and the Epstein Saga

 

Quote

Historically, presidents looked to 50 percent job approval as the key indicator of their standing with the public. For Trump, 40 percent is the new 50 percent. The remainder of his second term will look very different if his job ratings are consistently below that line rather than above it. How the Epstein saga plays out could be a major factor.

 

Like you, I believe Epstein is just one more awful thing about Trump that will ultimately blow over.   At least with his base.  

I think this article does a good job of defining that base as a narrow range between maybe 38 % and 44 % of voters.  I very much doubt we'll see pictures of Trump and Epstein and Bill Clinton and teenage girls in bed together while drinking the blood of children.  So the Epstein saga will not be a major factor.

President Trump Job Approval

 

I think that second chart on RCP that shows Trump's first term approval ratings confirms the point I keep making:  people notice when they are being treated cruelly.

38 % approval is about as low as Trump got in his first term.  I don't think it is a coincidence that he first struck that low in Summer 2017.  That was right after the failed attempt to repeal Obamacare.  Note the word "failed".  So even though nothing changed, his own supporters on Obamacare noticed they were being stabbed in the back.  Some of them probably helped elect all those Democrats to the House in 2018.  

What's interesting is that it is not quite true that, for Trump, 40 percent is the new 50 percent.  That was true in 2017.  So far in 2025 he has stayed above 45 percent.  Right around now in 2017 was when he was first hitting sub-40 thanks to trying to repeal Obamacare.  So his approval rating is actually higher.  Maybe in part because we are dealing with a fake MAGA/QAnon crisis rather than a real health care crisis.

That also suggests maybe you are right.  If I'm correct that even trying to repeal Obamacare in 2017 drove Trump's approval rating down, actually cutting Medicaid and SNAP should do the same.  But it has not really registered yet, it seems.  As that article notes, the Big Cruel Bill is wildly unpopular.  But it has seemingly not moved the dial on Trump's approval rating.

It is funny to see Trump acting bat shit crazy because of a fake scandal of his own making.  But not that funny.  Here's why:

Quote

“We’ve been trying to say Trump is full of shit for years and it hasn’t really stuck, right? But something about this topic is making a healthy portion of MAGA world — particularly folks who are not ideologically aligned with Trump but kind of flirted with him last year when they pulled the lever for him — be like, ‘Yea, he’s definitely full of shit,’” a senior Democratic campaign aide boasted to me.

I think that confirms my distinction between MAGA world and cynics or Independents - like Joe Rogan - who don't like either party.  It also confirms that even senior Democrats sounds confused.  If they are not ideologically aligned with Trump but "kind of flirted with him" and now think he is full of shit, they are not living in MAGA world.  They are how Trump got from something like a 40 % base to a 49.8 % winning plurality.

If this damages Trump, great.  But as a Democrat I would not be boasting.  Mostly what it does, as is noted, is make cynics feel more cynical about politicians who are full of shit.  The fact that Democrats are pressing the point does not make them any less full of shit in the eyes of the same voters.  It just makes them the ones throwing the shit. 

As far as it goes, that's fine.  But it doesn't give anyone a reason to vote for Democrats.  

[Suckrates]

21 minutes ago, stevenkesslar said:

They are not living in MAGA world.  They are how Trump got from something like a 40 % base to a 49.8 % winning plurality.

If this damages Trump, great.  But as a Democrat I would not be boasting.  Mostly what it does, as is noted, is make cynics feel more cynical about politicians who are full of shit.  The fact that Democrats are pressing the point does not make them any less full of shit in the eyes of the same voters.  It just makes them the ones throwing the shit. 

As far as it goes, that's fine.  But it doesn't give anyone a reason to vote for Democrats.  

 

However, there ARE plenty of reasons NOT to vote for Trump,  but half the voting public just aint buying them..... Trust on both sides has been lost, and people dont know what to believe.   But the ones that voted for Trump, and stuck with him thru ALL his trials, tribulations and LIES, may still not be ready to jump ship....Its the Trump era, and the cat no longer has only 9 lives......It has INFINITY......

And if there is any doubt,  we can always go back to the OG claim of "shooting on Fifth Ave and not losing any support".......seems to be holding true STILL....   A dead jewish pedophile aint the thing thats gonna end Trump !

[PeterRS]

5 hours ago, Suckrates said:

Its the Trump era, and the cat no longer has only 9 lives......It has INFINITY......

I bet one man is laughing hysterically in his grave. The ghastly Roy Cohn taught Trump all his tricks and he has proved a grade A+ student. "You are always right" was his strategy. Use fear, law suits, defamation, make up fake news and whatever else you can come up with to prove it. Everyone will back down. And so it has come to pass! That Joe Biden was so self-centred not to realise and comprehend this known fact is one of the appalling tragedies of his Presidency.

[RockyRoadTravel]

On 7/22/2025 at 12:06 AM, stevenkesslar said:

 

How is it even possible that Obamacare was not implemented until 2014.  And yet Democrats got shellacked in 2010 because of it?  Years before anyone could say they felt any impact from anything?

 

Why?  Because it's needlessly complicated.  Why provide coverage to the uninsured through a new and complicated process that provides coverage through subsidizing private health care insurance. It would have been (and still is) a far better idea to just extend Medicare to all.  More efficient. Cheaper. More immediately understandable. 

[RockyRoadTravel]

On 7/22/2025 at 12:06 AM, stevenkesslar said:

Sis, just run with me on this for one paragraph.  This is an exercise in fear and greed and imagination.

 

Then again, we both lost our virginity long ago.  So maybe I just have too vivid an imagination.

Were you typing with two hands or one hand? 

[stevenkesslar]

1 hour ago, RockyRoadTravel said:

Were you typing with two hands or one hand? 

My Sister In Cock and I are gracious, loving, and kind.

That said, we are still perverts.  People who live in glass glory holes should not throw stones.  😉

[stevenkesslar]

2 hours ago, RockyRoadTravel said:

Why?  Because it's needlessly complicated.  Why provide coverage to the uninsured through a new and complicated process that provides coverage through subsidizing private health care insurance. It would have been (and still is) a far better idea to just extend Medicare to all.  More efficient. Cheaper. More immediately understandable. 

Agreed.

As it turned out, Obamacare has helped lots of people afford health insurance.  Larry Summers, who now calls himself a "progressive", recently said that throwing 10 million people off Medicaid will result in 100,000 deaths.  I have no idea how he figured that.  But my point is that a lot of deaths and worse health and bankruptcies were avoided through Obamacare.  So I would say it is an example of not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

It is also an example of money in politics at it worst.  And this is true for Democrats and Republicans.  Arguably more true for Democrats.  At least the logic of Republicans is simple.  End a government program.  Put lots of money in tax cuts in the pockets of Trumps and donors like Musk.  Put a little money in the pocket of some Hispanic guy whose income is based on tips.  Call it fair.  Say the Republican Party is the party of the Hispanic working class.

My version of the AMLO Democratic Party was the expanded child tax credit.  Like AMLO in Mexico, it simply put money in the hands of working class people with kids.  It cuts child poverty in half.  Yes, Virginia.  It really is that simple.  Arguably, if a younger and feistier Joe Biden and Kamala Harris had lacerated Sinema and Manchin they could have gotten a modest tax increase on the Trumps and Musks to pay for an expanded and permanent child tax credit.  That credit would have wiped out most of the impact of higher prices for tens of millions of working class families who didn't like higher prices. 

My version of Kamala Harris is she brought a knife to her one debate with Trump and said, "My Momma taught me that when you lift half of poor kids out of poverty, you don't throw them back in to give tax cuts to rapists like Donald Trump.  So if he tries to do that to your kids I will literally gut this man and turn him into shitty overpriced Trump steaks.  If you don't believe me, try me."  That Kamala Harris might have won.

Instead what we got is a Democratic Party steeped in lobbyist and special interest money that even on its best day, when it had power, came up with some ridiculous scheme for paid family leave that seems like it had to be written by lobbyists and corporate donors.  I did not follow it closely because it was just sad.  Even advocates were saying this scheme is overcomplicated and there are simpler and better ways to do this.

I have no idea what the solution to this is.  Special interests in politics are as old as politics.  But Democrats are so deeply saturated in money and special interests that they don't seem to be able to figure out what to actually fight for.

[Pete1111]

I'm terribly cynical about polls these days.

I recall a conversation Amy Walter of Cook Political Report had on The Bulwark last year, how polling numbers aren't effectively picking up "movement on the margins."

Sampling methodologies are failing to effectively predict.

I also remember how the New York Times interviewed undecided voters that did not like Trump, yet leaned towards voting for Trump because he was willing to tell the truth 😮, or he was best for health care and best for education. 😮

In the end, Amy Walters recommended not getting too wrapped up in polls.

My current cynical nature is a sense that Trump is unpopular, but his base still supports him, despite disliking certain specific policies.

For my own reasons, I already mentioned on this board, I don't see a path forward to stop the MAGA cult.

I don't claim to understand why the Dems are losers.  

Does anyone sense there is a think tank coming up with answers?   And that the Dems are ready to listen?

I think it is stupid and cruel to abandon Fed funding of HIV vaccine research and abandon epidemic containment in Africa.  

The Dems and corporate media are mostly quiet about it.

 

 

 

 

[Suckrates]

21 minutes ago, Pete1111 said:

I'm terribly cynical about polls these days.

I recall a conversation Amy Walter of Cook Political Report had on The Bulwark last year, how polling numbers aren't effectively picking up "movement on the margins."

Sampling methodologies are failing to effectively predict.

I also remember how the New York Times interviewed undecided voters that did not like Trump, yet leaned towards voting for Trump because he was willing to tell the truth 😮, or he was best for health care and best for education. 😮

In the end, Amy Walters recommended not getting too wrapped up in polls.

My current cynical nature is a sense that Trump is unpopular, but his base still supports him, despite disliking certain specific policies.

For my own reasons, I already mentioned on this board, I don't see a path forward to stop the MAGA cult.

I don't claim to understand why the Dems are losers.  

Does anyone sense there is a think tank coming up with answers?   And that the Dems are ready to listen?

I think it is stupid and cruel to abandon Fed funding of HIV vaccine research and abandon epidemic containment in Africa.  

The Dems and corporate media are mostly quiet about it.

 

 

 

 

These days, the Dems MUST pick their Battles,  and their is a shitload to pick from.    ALL the issues are important,  but when you have MINISCULE power you are hogtied to be able to make any positive change.   Currently, the Dems THINK they have been given a gift from god with the Epstein shit..... and they have taken it and are running,  leaving ALL other important issues in the dust.    This has always been their strategy...  They seem to have very narrow focus and can only talk about the latest HOT CRAZY TRUMP ISSUE.....   AND when they talk about it,  they talk in "politician speak"  making it all very complicated....   The Dems have BIG problems with communication and until they learn to speak to people on "their" level,  they cant make any inroads.    and its REALY a shame, because they SEEM to want to HELP the American people,  but always end up getting in their OWN way,  while the GOP keep doing their thing, no matter how corrupt, illegal or immoral, they UNITE and push thru, intentional and FEARLESS,  while the Dems cower in the corner, clutching their copies of the Constitution......😏. 

[Goober]

True MAGAt cultists couldn't care less if donOLD was involved in raping teenage girls. One thing donOLD was correct about was when he said he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose a single vote. Their common hatred for Democrats is above all else.

[RockyRoadTravel]

13 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

My Sister In Cock and I are gracious, loving, and kind.

That said, we are still perverts.  People who live in glass glory holes should not throw stones.  😉

Well. Maybe stop calling him Man-do-me 

[stevenkesslar]

16 hours ago, Suckrates said:

These days, the Dems MUST pick their Battles,  and their is a shitload to pick from.    ALL the issues are important,  but when you have MINISCULE power you are hogtied to be able to make any positive change.   Currently, the Dems THINK they have been given a gift from god with the Epstein shit..... and they have taken it and are running,  leaving ALL other important issues in the dust.    This has always been their strategy...  They seem to have very narrow focus and can only talk about the latest HOT CRAZY TRUMP ISSUE.....   AND when they talk about it,  they talk in "politician speak"  making it all very complicated....   The Dems have BIG problems with communication and until they learn to speak to people on "their" level,  they cant make any inroads.    and its REALY a shame, because they SEEM to want to HELP the American people,  but always end up getting in their OWN way,  while the GOP keep doing their thing, no matter how corrupt, illegal or immoral, they UNITE and push thru, intentional and FEARLESS,  while the Dems cower in the corner, clutching their copies of the Constitution......😏. 

This is an excellent essay.

The Liberal Patriot is where Ruy Teixeira writes his perma-scold articles, pretty much every one of which I read.  This guy John Halpin is different.  He does less scolding and tries to lay out a positive vision of what will work.

Can Democratic Factions Coexist and Win Over Independents?

Quote

With party identification at rock-bottom levels, both Democratic factions can ill afford to drum out anyone and desperately need to get over their differences, coalesce around an effective and popular economic agenda, jettison their least popular cultural ideas, and find a better plan to win over independents, disengaged voters, and Obama/Biden-Trump voters. Some of these voters are anti-establishment. Some are “let’s work together” moderates. Some are just fed up with partisan blather and politics altogether. Given this context, various bits and pieces from both factions can help appeal to the disparate center in politics.

Quote

Rather than marching headlong into factional civil war, the Democratic Party needs to come up with a different approach to institutional and electoral rebuilding—one based on an affirmative agenda that brings together voters from all ideological perspectives in support of a common economic focus. What is the primary goal of the Democratic Party?

We want to help working- and middle-class Americans earn more in their jobs and afford a decent quality of life for their families.

 

There's only one problem with this essay.  It is much easier said than done.

I really do think it boils down to one thing.  Democrats need a new leader.  And we won't have one until 2028, at the earliest.  So we get to stew in our juices for three more years.  And see lots of institutions and programs we like be destroyed.

I'll keep ranting that AMLO is a version of this right in our own back yard.  What this essay lays out is basically what he did in Mexico.  But it took decades and a lot of both external and internal fights to pull it off.  Including in his case forming a new party.   

But we have a great model right in our own front yard:  Donald Trump.  It took two Republican losses in 2008 and 2012 for the time to be right for Donald Trump to stroll in and gradually capture his party.  But he still has not been able to capture 50.00000000000000001 % of the vote even one time.

The author mentions that social media is hardly the place to work this out.  Ya think?  Social media is one of the biggest problems, since it makes us stupider and divided for profit.  

Politics is about addition, not subtraction.  It is going to take some very talented political leader to do it.

The good news to me is that Harris almost won.  So 2024 was not the massive repudiation of Democrats some make it out to be.  Right now the repudiated Democratic Party is leading in the generic ballot by about three points.

I do think the worse Trump gets, the better it is for Democrats in one way.  Several of the comments on that essay slam the moral purity of the left.  Trump is clearly intent on absolutely crushing all kinds of institutions and forces on the left.  So maybe after four years of that they will be a little less purist.  Especially on issues most people know are wildly unpopular.  Progressives like AOC and Sanders and maybe Mamdani can win in blue enclaves.  But after four years of Trump at war with immigrants and solar power and transgender people, hopefully progressives will be sick of it and ready to do whatever it takes to win.

If the goal is to build a majority, the center is by definition where the votes are.  The problem with the Democratic center is they are tied to every special interest group with money around.  Sinema and Manchin blocked attempts to do all kinds of popular things, like raising taxes on the rich to fund very popular policies for working class families. 

So some Democratic leader is going to have to first, win, and then second kick ass and force these centrists to do things a lot of Democratic lobbyists and bundlers and special interests don't like. 

It seemed in 2020 like Biden might have been the guy who could do that.  But he was too old and too weak and didn't really have a vision of what he needed to do.  But this is what AMLO managed to do when he took power, and what Trump is doing now.  It ain't rocket science.

 

[lookin]

18 hours ago, Pete1111 said:

My current cynical nature is a sense that Trump is unpopular, but his base still supports him, despite disliking certain specific policies.

For my own reasons, I already mentioned on this board, I don't see a path forward to stop the MAGA cult.

Well, the folks at the Jacobin Foundation do.  Although they're proudly leftist, Socialist and bordering on Marxist, they sure know how to dig for data and reach defensible conclusions.

They say there's a subset of Trump voters - about 11% - who are economic populists and also hold socially moderate views.  Their social attitudes aren't progressive, but they aren't socially conservative either.

Can't say I picked through the data line-by-line but the folks who put together the report clearly did.  They say this 11% of Trump voters - 5% of the total electorate - are the easiest pickings for the Democrats and, even if Democrats could pick up half of them, it could be enough to swing a close election.

Now all we have to do is hope there is another election.  

[Suckrates]

7 hours ago, lookin said:

Well, the folks at the Jacobin Foundation do.  Although they're proudly leftist, Socialist and bordering on Marxist, they sure know how to dig for data and reach defensible conclusions.

They say there's a subset of Trump voters - about 11% - who are economic populists and also hold socially moderate views.  Their social attitudes aren't progressive, but they aren't socially conservative either.

Can't say I picked through the data line-by-line but the folks who put together the report clearly did.  They say this 11% of Trump voters - 5% of the total electorate - are the easiest pickings for the Democrats and, even if Democrats could pick up half of them, it could be enough to swing a close election.

Now all we have to do is hope there is another election.  

 

The Trump CRIME FAMILY is already working on ways to make that NOT HAPPEN,   unless of course, Trump "accomplishes" ALL the destruction he intended by 2028 ?

I am certain the folks that brought us P2024 have a P2028,  with things like "ending GAY marriage" unless that can squeeze that in for Trumps current term ?    And of course expanding the partisan Supreme Court with types like Emil Bove.....

Trump, IF he is still alive, will NOT let go of the Euphoria of RICHES he is amassing as POTUS,  and in typical Trump fashion with issue an "EO" to STOP elections because "America will be so GREAT & Golden"......  like noone has ever seen !