PeterRS

Just for information, according to the article below 2006 was the last of the series of annual marches. I am certain i watched one 2 or 3 years earlier. My memory may be playing tricks but from where I was standing I recall few spectators and a rather thin group of participants. Certainly the first two of @reader's pics show very few participants even though they are just snapshots of small sections of the Parades. In Taipei within those spaces would be dozens of marchers, many not necessarily dressed up. Still, that's all in the past. The major point as far as I am concerned was that the girls and boys who took part were not the average gay men and women in Thailand as in Taipei and other Taiwanese cities. Like Taiwan, the much smaller annual Parades in Tokyo and Hong Kong regularly feature just ordinary folk. Same is true at Singapore's Pink Dot where many of the younger LGBT community bring not only their parents but also their whole families including young children. Thailand always featured mostly professional guys and gals from the bars. The article adds that a Pride March was planned for May 20 in 2017 but was postponed to November due to the mourning period for the late King. It had been hoped to hold it on Silom but permission was was denied. Then for reasons that I have never seen explained, that March never actually happened. I think that was a pity because it was to have been the first not organised primarily by the commercial gay venues. https://www.khaosodenglish.com/life/events/2017/01/13/11-years-pride-parade-step-bangkok/ I still believe that no March here in Bangkok has a chance of being successful unless it can attract as marchers far more ordinary Thais. Clearly there is now a much greater awareness of LGBT issues amongst students and that is one group that I believe would now become part of a March. But I still see no chance of getting attendance by anyone working in the business community. And this is sad because Taiwan not only has many guys from that community, several major firms like Citibank not only support the Parade they have their banners proudly displayed during the March (see photo). Singapore also has a lot of support from local firms. It used to have considerable support from international firms based in the city state until the government banned foreign participation about 3 years ago. In fact, given that the Pink Dot idea has caught on in various parts of the world, I am starting to think a Bangkok Pink Dot held in a park would be a lot more effective than a March. Those participating could have a better cloak of anonymity, And the photos from the sky with Bangkok's skyscrapers in the background would be in many world newspapers, just as Pink Dot has been several times. It makes for a really powerful statement. Singapore Pink Dot - photo The New Paper

Sadly I cannot see any Gay Pride March working in Bangkok. You may remember one had to be abandoned in Chiang Mai in 2009 after it had actually started, as a result of harassment from about 200 protestors holding placards claiming that the event was against Thai culture. Any Pride March will require approvals from several authorities and roads will either have to be closed or, as with the past Bangkok Parades, half closed off. But if you cannot get members of most sectors of the Thai gay community to take part including those attending the hi-so nightclubs in the Thonglor area and it is left as before just to the commercial venues, I'd say it would be a total waste of time. I'm not sure i agree about moving too fast. As I mentioned, Taiwan had an equally conservative society following the end of Martial Law in 1987. At that time there were no gay venues. Bangkok, on the other hand, had quite a thriving gay culture in 1987 and many of those who attended the bars and gogo bars were Thais. Thailand was certainly ahead of Taiwan in terms of gay recognition. The difference, as I suggested in my earlier post, is that Taiwan had a dedicated band of professionals, blue-collar workers and students determined to lead a movement towards acceptance. It was a dedicated group movement intent on dialogue and discussion - not confrontation - that soon extended beyond Taipei to most of the other major cities. Thailand has occasionally had individuals like Khun Natee Teerarojianapong leading gay rights movements, but he has never had more than token backup The present student movements that are promoting gay rights remain small and fragmented, as far as I can see. Also, I seriously doubt if students can effect change on their own. And remember, once they graduate, many will get caught up in Thailand's much more homophobic business environment.

I cannot help feeling that article hardly represents the views of anything like a majority of Thais. For a start, the professions of the respondents - with one exception - are hardly representative of the community as a whole. The one exception is the student. I am delighted that he is finding more openly gay colleagues attending events for, as he says, the future is in their hands. I would like to have seen the views of at least two gay Thai professionals. Even as an expatriate with various Thai friends who has lived and worked here over many years, I know that Thai society as a whole remains extremely conservative. Most families are accepting when told their sones or daughters are gay. But there is ends. Many professional gay Thai men (and I assume women as well) will not dare tell their colleagues about their sexuality. They know only too well that this can affect their prospects for promotion. The business community is far less accepting. As some of the respondents point out, education about the LGBT community and lifestyles will no doubt help. It seems certain that existing views too often hold inaccurate and unfortunate conclusions - traditional customs, greater exposure to AIDS, ladyboy tendencies etc. I dislike even suggesting this but I believe gay community leaders here are partly to blame. I can't help looking at Taiwan where it was gay individuals who led the movement to change views among the general population, views that were generally homophobic. Progress was slow and steady and it started at a time when there were very few gay venues and places for gays to meet. Even the annual gay pride parade was started by individuals intent on getting across simple messages each year. Now of course it is a massive event with close to 200,000 attending the annual Gay Pride March. Around the turn of the millennium, Bangkok did have its own Gay Pride March. Even though the aim of the organisers was no doubt laudable, it really was a farce. I say that because it was organised by the gay business community. So those who took part were the boys and lady boys who worked in the bars and spas. It was way over the top for a city like Bangkok and drew few spectators. Certainly I think not many more than a handful of non commercial gays took part. Not surprisingly it died after a few years. For the gay movement develop here it cannot be led by the commercial venues.

Sorry but I give him zero credit. All over 60s, especially with one of the other underlying health issues, should be next in line following health workers and other front line staff. What I don't understand is that I and an expat friend here in Bangkok have been given dates and times for our first jabs next month. Although both were made via a private hospital, we have been told we are part of the government scheme and will not have to pay.

Yes to both - I mean "not" to both! Thanks for pointing this out. I realise my view on the Max is extreme. After all, without "electronic sorcery" Concorde would never have got off the ground and I looked forward to my one flight with a lot of excitement. But when I flew supersonic, the airliner had been safely flying passengers for 25 years and its cockpit crews were both unanimous in their praise for it and proud to be flying it. On the other hand, it was a complete airliner designed totally from scratch. To save cash and nor lose ground to Airbus whose Neo narrow body family, Boeing rejected a complete redesign for the 737 and instead yet again adapted that original 1960s low to the ground body. As I understand it, had Boeing simply lengthened the landing gear so that the fuselage sits higher off the ground, the engines could have been positioned under the wings and the problems and need for the MCAS system might have vanished. But a longer undercarriage would not have fitted into the existing wheel wells in the fuselage. So the struts would have had to be placed further out on the wing, thereby necessitating an a complete wing redesign which Boeing rejected on cost grounds. The problem was partly "solved" with some sort of telescopic strut. Another band aid solution!

I usually take Qatar back to the UK but only because I'm quite happy to book far ahead to take advantage of various special deals. In 2018 I got a biz return for 63,00 baht - roughly half the list price - during a 48-hour sale. On my last trip in October 2019 the aircraft was changed to one with the Q Suites and I was in 1K which is backward facing. Does not concern me in the slightest. The rows alternate backwards/forwards facing. The window seats have more privacy and tons of space - more than on the Emirates A380s. I reckon 1A and 1K are the quietest and best seats in the entire cabin. I do think Qatar beats Emirates hands down when it comes to meals and wines.

For a brief moment I thought "What the heck is this?" How does a handsome porn star of gay movies make such a confession? Then it clicked. You were not writing about Adam Archuleta!!!

This seems to follow on the idea thought up, I believe, by the novelist Neville Shute. His novel On The Beach was written as far back as 1957 and imagines a group of Australians waiting out the arrival of the nuclear cloud following World War 3. I will say no more, other than I found it a gripping read a few decades ago.

As is clear from reading this thread and those on other forums, Thailand's vaccine policy has been a disaster from the get-go. I realise this post gets close to what is within the rules, but without naming names, the decision of the Health Ministry last year to place the contract to manufacture the locally produced version of the Astra Zeneca vaccine with a company that had never before produced any vaccine of any type whatsoever was a farce. This was especially true given that the Government lab which has produced many different vaccines, some under contract to the WHO, bid for the contract and lost. The delays in getting that vaccine out shows the lackadaisical attitude of the government. Charitably they were probably lulled into a false sense of security by the very small number of cases last year. Then they dropped the ball and through mismanagement and corruption allowed the present third wave to roll over the country big time. The Prime Minister overruling the advice of his medical experts by permitting travel during Songkran this year was madness given that the wave had in fact started before then. The excuse he is quoted in the media as saying is that the public would not have stood for a second cancellation of Songkran! More madness! Now they have been forced to purchase tens of millions of doses from overseas at goodness knows what price. Oh, and the fact that the Minister of Health has ambitions to become Prime Minister may or may not have something to do with the debacle!

Was that on the A380 super jumbo? After the 747 I just love the Emirates A380s, especially if one can afford business class upstairs with the flat bed seats, huge video screens and the great stand up bar at the back serving premium brands and snacks. Sadly Airbus roled out the last ever A380 just a week or so ago. With fuel prices about to rocket, it was just the wrong plane launched at the wrong time. Part of me hopes that once the pandemic is finally in the background there will be such a demand for travel that the aircraft will keep flying for many more years. At least one of the aircraft on the several daily flights out of Bangkok could hold 615 passengers.

I am sure you are correct - provided there is not another Max crash. Let us hope that does happen. Even so, given all we now know about all that aircraft's production problems and Boeing's relatively new corporate culture, I will never fly the plane. I just believe the design is fundamentally seriously flawed. Those larger engines that now jut above the wings should never have been fitted to what is a 1960s airframe. That may seem strange because I remember making a detour just to fly the MacDonnell Douglas DC10 between Geneva and Zurich. This was after its first major crash - a 1974 Turkish Airlines flight outside Paris, a result of a poor cargo door locking mechanism. The subsequent decompression buckled the passenger cabin floor and severed most of the hydraulic lines. The pilots could no longer control the aircraft. All 346 on board were killed. Most passengers had not been booked on that flight. They had been transferred from a full British European Airways flight to London which was stuck on the ground due to a strike. There were more DC10 crashes and a short FAA mandated grounding before production ceased and the revised similar MD11 version was rolled out. I flew this a lot and really liked that aircraft. Perhaps it's just age and experience that have resulted in my decision never to fly on the Max.

Yes, the design and production of the 737-Max was crappy as has been proved by the FAA investigation. But to suggest the crashes were the result of being flown by "developing-world airlines" is frankly nonsense. That has already been proved. Plus there were about 200 prior complaints from US based pilots about problems with the Max which went unaddressed. In the light of the electrical issues addressed in the original post, not only Southwest but also United and American withdrew 17 and 16 Max aircraft respectively from service. The problem was serious enough for the FAA to issue another directive on April 30 stipulating further modifications before the aircraft could fly again. To be fair, that has not stopped Southwest from ordering even more 737-Max aircraft. The fault was eventually traced to poor electrical bonding resulting in improper earthing which could affect certain systems resulting in the loss of critical functions including de-icing. One 737 Max critic has been Ed Pierson, a former Boeing employee who has basically maintained the 737 Max was pushed back into service too quickly. Earlier this year he published a report that explicitly linked production pressures with electrical anomalies and flight control system problems that occurred in both the Lion and Ethiopian crashes prior to the fatal accidents. As he states - “Yes, MCAS caused the airlines to pitch down and crash. But it was an electrical system malfunction that likely caused the angle of attack sensor to send faulty data to MCAS.” He further claims that the 20-month recertification process focused on software design and pilot training but failed to address the impact of production standards at the factory. As for Boeing in general, The Seattle Times has had the most regular and knowledgeable reports throughout the Max crisis. An article on May 9 states - “This latest problem adds to the long litany of missteps currently afflicting Boeing. “Manufacturing flaws have grounded more than 80 of the widebody 787 Dreamliners for months; design flaws mean the vision system on the Air Force’s KC-46 military aerial refueling tanker must be completely revamped; and quality issues have delayed the Starliner spacecraft program. “And in a previously unreported problem, Boeing recently found a potential defect in a batch of 20 to 40 motors that move the horizontal stabilizer on all 737s, including the MAX and earlier models. “This motor — manufactured by Eaton, a supplier headquartered in Ireland — is part of the system that pitches the airplane nose up or nose down. Boeing said seven of the aircraft with a stabilizer motor from the defective batch are MAXs. “Boeing spokesperson Jessica Kowal said the defect potentially affects the reliability of the component. The motor ‘has been replaced in five of the MAXs already and the remaining two airplanes will have the parts replaced before they fly again,’ she said. “Kowal said Boeing is continuing ‘to evaluate any potential impact to the 737 NG fleet.’ “American Airlines spokesperson Sarah Jantz said two MAXs in its fleet had their stabilizer motors replaced as a result of Boeing’s directive, although neither had experienced any issues. (Both those fixed MAXs are now grounded by the new electrical power control unit problem.)” https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/boeing-jet-deliveries-in-may-hit-by-latest-787-snag/ It is the problems affecting the 787 that seem the most worrying now. Defects in the joins to the various fuselage sections resulted in deliveries being halted for 5 months at the end of last year. Resumed in March, they were again halted on instructions from the FAA after only two were delivered in May. Now once again the problem seems to be electrical in nature. Boeing has still not resumed deliveries.

When I left University and started work, I was informed - I believe in some form of leaflet - that the National Insurance contributions of myself and my employer would ensure two things: I would receive the state pension after I had paid in for the required number of years, and I would remain eligible for treatment under the National Health Service. I seem to recall there were three levels of contribution. After I moved overseas to work, I moved down a notch and elected to continue in the scheme by paying my own personal contributions. These were at a fixed amount per year rather than dependent on employment income, since the UK does not tax non residents earning overseas. Some time in the mid 2000s, I wrote to the relevant department just to make sure my contributions were up to date. I got a letter back informing me that I was underfunded and would need to pay an additional £7.38 to ensure my eligibility!! At some point I became aware of the fact that the monthly pension rate would be frozen without indexation the moment I started to withdraw it. Two things of which I was not aware was Margaret Thatcher withdrawing my right to vote because I was living overseas for more than a certain number of years, and then Tony Blair introducing legislation to ensure I would no longer be eligible for National Health Service treatment unless I returned to live in the UK for at least six months each year. No government department informed me about these major changes. We were all just supposed to learn them for ourselves, which is a disgrace. The freezing of the pension of someone living overseas makes absolutely no sense to me. We have contributed in full to the NI scheme. By living abroad we cannot now make use of the National Health Service even if we wanted to unless we do return to the UK. We place no burden on the state, but the state penalises us for reasons it will not give us. And then, having contributed in full to the NI scheme, what possible rationale is there for backdating the denial of eligibility for perhaps an occasional use of the NHS (or for even longer in the case of treatment for a severe illness) in the case of those who were in fact eligible when starting to make contributions? That is even more of a disgrace in my view.

Usually I am one of the worst investors. But I did manage to take advantage of the Asian Economic crisis. In 1999 I put some cash into a Thailand Growth Mutual Fund when the stock market was hovering around 200. I also put in around $300 per month thereafter. But then when the market's upward trajectory started to stagnate a few years later with the market around 700 or so, I took the money out. I had made a very sizeable profit. Of course, had I just left it in, I could have at least doubled that. But then I am one of those who gets a bit panicky when the financial outlook seems bleak!

In my post two above, I mentioned the sale of the mother's house as "clearly several thousand pounds." Apologies - it should have read "several hundred thousand pounds."

The health issue is so vital for retirees and so relatively uncertain. From my 40s I had a wonderful health plan paid for by my employer. Everything was paid for and it was worldwide. But even before I left, I knew I could not take it with me, as it were. And even had that been possible, there was no way I could have afforded the premiums. So before I had to give up that policy, I very stupidly took advice from someone in one of the chat rooms by going to an acknowledged "expert" in medical insurance. And I assure you, everyone said he was "THE expert". End result. I got a plan that was much more suited to a future in Thailand. So for a couple of years I had two policies as I knew that after 65 I would have difficulty finding any cover. I was extremely stupid. i did no research on the insurance company. It was large and based in the USA. I had checked on likely future premiums for ten years and was satisfied. But I did not check the company. t was then fighting several law suits and had a reputation for pulling in clients close to retirement and then raising rates very quickly. For three years all went well even after I hit one of the 5 year milestones when premiums usually increase more significantly than usual. But over the next two years the premium went up first by 25% and the next year by 50%! I was near incandescent with rage. I spoke to the company and especially to the broker who had sold me the policy. All put their hands up and said "not our fault". So after age 65 I had to try and find another insurer, move back to the UK or self insure. Thankfully I found another company here in Thailand and have what I consider a very good plan at decent rates. But the reason I quoted from @Ruthrieston's post concerns the possible introduction of the 40,000 baht outpatient requirement. This to me seems the height of utter nonsense. I dropped outpatient treatment from my policy and will save around 37,000 baht annually. It made no sense since my policy has a 40,000 baht excess. Why pay 40,000 that just to claim 3,000? So I have a separate bank account with plenty of funds to cover outpatient treatment and any other additional medical costs. But will the Immigration Department and its medical advisers see the sense in this? Of course not! TIT.

I had not realised this topic would result in such a variety of interesting posts and suggestions. Having chatted yesterday with another guy here who knows the unfortunate pair, we have tried to put together a timeline of what happened up to the point where their cash seems to have disappeared. They both retired around 1998. We expect they must then have been 65. One had received a large amount from the sale of his recently deceased mother's house. No idea of the amount, but clearly several thousand pounds. They had decided that rather than spend their retirement in the UK, they would move to Singapore. Both knew the city state and so must either have worked there or visited more than once. Singapore must have seemed an ideal place. It was still suffering the effects of the 1997 Asian Economic crisis, property prices had fallen and like all Asian currencies, apart from the Chinese RMB and the Hong Kong $, the Singapore $ had dropped close to 25%. We expect they arrived there around late 1999. They spent a year in a serviced apartment and then planned to buy somewhere. But in late 2000 the financial world went into a tailspin with the bursting of the dot.com bubble. Many portfolios took quite a hit. As a result, the pair decided their cash pile might not last in Singapore and they needed to find somewhere less expensive. They did not know Bangkok and so moved into a serviced apartment on Saladaeng (not the one above Zanotti restaurant - a cheaper one between there and Silom near Senso massage) for year while they checked locations to purchase. They purchased a large flat (too large which was a major mistake) in a residential district about 2 kms from Silom. I now realise they moved in at the start of 2002. But property in that area was not expensive, especially for larger apartments. So they must have assumed they got a good deal. But the next curveball as Spoon so accurately describes it occurred just a year later. SARS in early 2003 hit Asian stock markets hard - far more so than the rest of the world. Although they had recovered by around the end of the year, had anyone sold assets during that downturn, their cash pile would have been effectively reduced. Fast forward to the worldwide depression of 2008 when just about everyone suffered financially - many badly. The future outlook for those living off savings inevitably was bad, the more so with interest rates falling close to zero and remaining there for many years. We suspect they must at that time have seen the writing on the wall as far as their long term future in Thailand was concerned. But they could not sell their property as values had crashed. So they hung on presumably for as long as they could. At that stage we guess they could have just upped sticks, taken the financial hit and returned to the UK. But if you are getting close to 80 and know that the world has recovered from similar crises in the past, perhaps they reckoned waiting it out would be the best thing. Clearly it was not. Yet they waited till around 2013 before putting the condo on the market. We have no idea who they entrusted the sale to but it took three years before they found a buyer. By then the asking price had dropped by more than 25%. Their next mistake was moving into another large apartment so close to the city centre at a rent that they perhaps thought they could afford. Even with some savings and with somewhere around 10 million baht from the sale in their accounts, not moving into a much smaller and cheaper apartment further from the centre was some kind of madness. Within 5 years their cash had all but run out. And yet, how did they run through such an amount of cash so quickly? As I mentioned earlier, something must have happened between renewal of their visas in May last year and having to start borrowing from friends just to stay alive only a few months later. We still do not know how a seeming 1.6 million baht to renew visas disappeared. In the thread title, I used the word "sad". I believe that is because I knew the pair and I knew them to be good, decent people who lived quite frugally and were good neighbours. Perhaps I should have left that word out. I feel very badly for them now and their future must seem bleak. But it is certainly a cautionary tale. All the advice offered above about the amount of cash anyone requires for retiring in Thailand is so apt. It is likely to be a lot more than at first thought, the more so if you live into your late 80s or 90s. Placing all ones financial eggs in one uncertain basket is not at all a good idea. Some back-up is vital.

To be fair, I had to take Northwest a lot and found their breakfasts pretty good (although that was in business class). Not being American, I particularly loved their pancakes with fruit and lashings of maple syrup. Most of my flights were trans Pacific and I could never understand why it had earned the name "Northworst". But then I rarely had to take a flight in coach within the USA! One of my most amusing flights was on British Airways flying from London to Singapore. I was travelling with the Asian Regional Director of the company and since he was in First Class he arranged for me to sit next to him. In the BA Lounge, he asked if BA served caviar on the flight. I'm certain they must, I suggested, but said i would check. The British Airways lounge personnel usually seemed to believe they were members of some snooty aristocratic class. Having asked my question, the young lady brushed me off with, "Oh, of course they will. But I will check and page you" Back at the desk five minutes later, that stupid lady had to crawl and admit she had been wrong. Caviar was not on the menu for our flight. When I told my colleague, he literally screamed, "F-U-C-K" and the entire lounge went silent. He then stormed out with "I'll see you on the plane." 15 minutes later I got to our double seat in the centre at the back of the cabin. My colleague arrived clearly happier than when I had last seen him. I assumed he'd been to the caviar bar in the main departure area and snacked there. But no. "Guess what I got?" He then held up a brown paper bag. Inside was a £250 tin of caviar and a bag of Melba toast. £250 then is probably closer to £500 now. As soon as the flight attendants started to come round, he summoned one. "Please bring us two side plates, two knives, two tea spoons and two patties of butter - fast!" When she eventually realised that it was to serve ourselves caviar, she exclaimed, "Goodness! You are lucky. You have caviar," to which my colleague said in a loud voice, "Thats because this fucking airline is so mean it won't serve it for first class passengers!" We were not very popular with the others in the cabin!

Me? It's much less the flying itself and much more missing meeting up with old friends again in various countries in Asia. I'm an admitted travel junkie and so I can't wait to get vaccinated and for travel bubbles finally to open up. For another self-confessed travel geek what he misses most is - airline food! Nik Sennhauser grew up almost on planes between Thailand where his Dad worked for a multi-national company and Austria where he went to school. Now based in Scotland, he spends his Sunday mornings making airline food for himself and his husband. I can't think why anyone would want to recreate airline food. When working for a multinational company, I had the luxury of business class travel most of the time, but the meals remain forgotten. Bumped up to first class on a few occasions, I was introduced to caviar and did enjoy it to the point where I always asked for a second helping - to the annoyance of the flight attendants who were probably limited to how much each passenger could be served. If there is one other item I recall it would be the wines, a few of which were spectacular. Perhaps oddly, the one meal I recall with pure pleasure was on JAL returning on an evening flight from Tokyo in economy class not so long ago. The airline had asked some chefs to prepare some new economy meals. I thought mine the best airline meal I had ever enjoyed in any class in decades of travelling. Pity the wine was cheap plonk, though! Nik's recreation of a United Airlines meal! Urghh! https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-57411754

I have shown my age!!!! I just always use my small phone.

Basically I agree with you. But I think you have to remember that regulations do change from time to time and there was a major change in the retirement visa extension requirements early last year. From 800,000 baht in the bank for 3 months prior to renewal which could thereafter be spent over the next 9 months, Immigration decided (for reasons I still do not understand) that the 800,000 had to be in the bank for 5 months during which it could not be touched and thereafter 400,000 must remain untouched for 7 months. In other words, at least 400,000 has to be locked up for life, as far as I can see. That is a pretty radical change considering many older people never had the level of pensions most younger people nowadays save or are forced to save towards. Anyone in their mid-80s who contributed to the UK National Insurance scheme for the required 40 years and started taking the pension at the age of 65 has it frozen at that level. My guess is that for those two guys that probably amounted to less than £75 (3,290 baht) per week each. Also, there may come a time, especially when you are in your 80s or older, when you cannot return home because there is simply no home to go to. Remember the case of the 92 year old who was put on a flight to Switzerland not so long ago? He could not meet the new retirement visa requirements and was deported. He had absolutely no relatives and no place to stay in Switzerland. Yet he was Swiss and so that is where he was sent. What he did once he got there, I hate to think. I have no home in Britain. No house, no apartment, no income apart from a basic British pension which would certainly not enable me to rent even a small apartment or get me into a care home. My brother and sister are about my age and may die before me. I don't have an extended family like many others, although i am certain my niece would look after me. At least i have an apartment here and savings in the bank. But as gaybutton writes, it would be useful to know what financial disaster befell these two guys so quickly. When people run out of cash, it is usually the case that they can predict that probably years ahead. So they can plan accordingly. From what we know, it seems these guys were caught almost completely unawares. On a separate matter, thanks to 10tazione for finding my earlier post. Renewed apologies for repeating most of the tale.

Sorry, I did not even read the bit about the Australian divemaster! I was too taken up with the pool deaths and how suspicious all that seems. But I wonder why the divemaster would use his iPad to make the phone call. After all, he had his phone with him. Although he could probably make app calls on both, why would he take up the bigger device yo do so? Or have I missed something else?

I thought I had written about these two English men who found themselves on really hard times in an earlier thread a few months ago. But I cannot find it. So apologies if I repeat myself. I just find this sad tale one that more than a few considering retirement in Thailand might also find themselves eventually facing. I had virtually forgotten about them until a friend sent me a Thai Visa thread at the weekend. The background. Two Englishmen I'll call D and D moved to Thailand to retire in Thailand around 2003. Both gay but I was never sure if they were a gay couple. I expected not. Just two good friends saving money by retiring together. They purchased the large double flat next to mine and spent quite a bit renovating it. Over the years I rarely saw them other than in the lift, waiting for a taxi or when we would occasionally invite ourselves to the others apartments for a glass of wine. They were polite - almost reserved. They hardly ever ventured out except to meet other expat friends for a coffee or a drink. Apart from one trip to England, I do not think they ever left Thailand. Both had medical insurance policies from English companies and one certainly had a pension being remitted. But I know that they used the 800,000 baht cash route when it came time to renew their retirement visas. As neighbours, I could not have asked for any pair more considerate and quiet. About 5 years ago they sold their flat. It had taken them a long time to sell and I know they got considerably less than they hoped for. Still, they will have at least doubled their purchase price. I assume it was probably in the region of 10-12 million. They moved into a rented apartment about 1.5 km away. From what I have now learned, the rental was probably in the region of 50K - 60K for a flat in the 140 - 200 square meter range. With hindsight that clearly was a massive mistake. Committing to such a large rental near the city centre with virtually a fixed amount of cash to live on for life was stupid. The recent past. In May last year, both extended their retirement visas still using the 800,000 baht route. Since this requires keeping that amount unspent for three months, they presented evidence via the bankbook in August. Something very serious then happened, but we do not know what. From at least 1.6 million in the bank plus other savings from the sale of their flat etc., in the space of little over 2 months they had virtually nothing. They stopped paying their rent. By December their landlord had cut the electricity and water to the apartment. They started calling friends asking for small loans. The landlord took them to court. The judge gave them a month to vacate the apartment. They did not leave. Soon even friends ceased to provide cash they knew would never returned. They started making plans to return to England, even though one had no living relatives there and the other only an older sister. Then those pans fell through, perhaps because of covid regulations but more likely they had no money to purchase tickets. They continued living without air conditioning, a fan or even water. The present. Having failed to renew their retirement visas towards the end of May, the matter moved from the police to the immigration authorities. Last week, in their mid-80s they were arrested and placed in a detention centre. Having overstayed their visas they will be deported and blacklisted. Who pays for their tickets is uncertain. One Thai Visa respondent states that the UK Embassy does not pay for such tickets. Then what happens is also uncertain since it seems at least one has nowhere to live on return. From the photo on the Thai Visa thread showing them in custody they appear desperately thin suggesting they had little money for food. What the future holds for them must be grim. But there remains the unanswered question: what happened to the cash they had in the middle of last year which then vanished within months? I suppose, perhaps like others we have heard about, they borrowed from money lenders at a very high interest rate and that cleaned them out. Who knows? Sad nonetheless.

Fell overboard into a hotel swimming pool? That's a new one on me

I agree, but as I stated in the earlier post, the Court could not be told about Turing's achievements. To the judge he was merely someone who had broken a long standing law which had convicted tens of thousands before him. We really must also recall the times. Britain - and I believe the USA, Australia and other countries - were extremely homophobic in the early 1950s. In the thread related to Movies about Maurice, I write about the first mouth on mouth male kiss in British movies in the 1971 Sunday Bloody Sunday. I see that there is a youtube clip in which one of actors, Murray Head, looks back a few decades to the times when they made that movie. Although the actors thought nothing of it, many of the technicians working on the film were all but horrified. As they were filming the scene, the cameraman suddenly put his hand in front of the camera and asked the director, John Schlesinger, "John, is this really necessary?" And for weeks afterwards, technicians working on the movie would go up to Head and say something to the effect, "We know your are an actor but that moment when you kissed Peter Finch - ughhh!"