Gaybutton

Those are the only two possibilities, lack or understanding or deliberate twisting? I believe my arguments are valid on their own, with no need to twist anything. What, exactly, do you think I twisted or misunderstood? Do you believe that to take a stance on any aspect of your own argument that is different from what you are saying means that I don't understand your argument? Ok . . . Here's one part of your argument about which I disagree and will now twist: "It's better to be safe than sorry." I agree with that statement, but I disagree that it applies to the current argument. I don't think there is any threat to anyone's safety at all, regarding CCTV cameras in bars. Again, you can be as paranoid and fearful as you wish. According to my interpretation of your argument it's not safe to visit any gay area of Pattaya at all. Personally, I would feel a lot less safe trying to get past US Customs if I happen to have a photo of my neighbor's kid with me than I would feel while inside a gay bar in Pattaya.

This is the "For Sale" ad for The Birdcage, that appears in PATTAYA PEOPLE.

Were you able to find out what they charge for a six-pack of rope?

I hate to break the news, but it's no more cleaned up now than it ever was. Several of the bars still have under-age boys and there are still quite a number of under-age street kids roaming around.

Rachain Kluanklard A.C.E.S. Advisors Co., Ltd. 15/35 M. 5 Naklua Banglamung Chonburi 20150 aces@loxinfo.co.th telephone: 038 411 127 On North Road (Pattaya Nua) look for The Balcony restaurant, a little to the west of the Tesco-Lotus on the same side of the street. The office is on the 4th floor of the same building the restaurant is in.

There's no way to answer that one. There is no particular average. I've seen some come and go as quickly as a couple of months and others have been there since before I ever started coming to Thailand. Often, a bar closes, but a new one opens at a different location and the owner is the same person who owned the bar that closed. Now there seems to be more closings than openings. I've been saying for a long time that I can't see how these bars can remain open when they have very few customers and sometimes no customers at all. How can they afford to pay the bills and the boys? Obviously they can't and now that problem is catching up and forcing several to go out of business. Just within the past several days Pattaya has lost Bondi, Birdcage, and Villa Rouge. Minou is closed, but I don't know anything about that or whether they will reopen. Gentlemen Club is gone. The old location of Star Boys is being gutted out. Gacuya is gone, although Louis opened Tai Boys again in a different location. The old location of Tai Boys is now a Family Mart. Just a few years ago there were four go go bars on Soi Day-Night. Now there are none. Some may remember the Moonlight Bar, near Pattayaland on Second Road. It's been gone for years now. Playboy and Boys Studio are both long gone. I can't remember the name of the bar, but a few years ago the first gay bar in Pattaya that featured a swimming pool and swimming show opened about halfway to Jomtien Beach from Pattayaland on Thappraya Road. It too is long gone. The ICON Hotel and the show bar are both gone. A few other bars that once existed in Sunee Plaza are gone. The old Monty's pool is still closed. That buffet restaurant right next door has a For Sale sign up. Between the costs of running a bar, paying the staff, dealing with the Police, and the lack of customers, the prognosis seems awfully gloomy to me. It hasn't been all that long since most of the bars were packed almost nightly and there was no shortage of customers even in low season. Now, high season can't even compare to the low season that existed not all that long ago. Right now it's the middle of low season. I'm almost ready to rename it 'dead season.'

By the way, most of the staff of the former Kaos- Villa Rouge has moved to the K-Boys bar. Many of the same boys, mama-sans, staff, etc. are there now.

I agree with Luvthai. While I have no reason to suspect there is an intent to set you up for blackmail, the times are dangerous regarding gay farang with an under-age boy under his roof, no matter how innocent it might be. I like the hotel idea. You can always concoct some sort of a story that gives legitimacy to a reason why you can't have any guests at the time they will be there. You could also be honest with the boy about your concerns and explain it is a risk you don't want to take. After all, it's your home and you shouldn't have to be fearful in your own home. If you have some time before they arrive, maybe it would be a good idea to consult a reputable Thai attorney about your concerns. If this was a few years ago, I would have said you're creating a problem that doesn't really exist. Today, however, I think if it were me I would have similar concerns. I also agree with Luvthai. The kid stole your camcorder. Ok, now he says he regrets it, he's sorry, and wants to return it, but do you really think it's such a good idea to have that same boy stay in your home? Maybe his conscience won't bother him so much over the next item he decides to take on a little journey away from home.

The following appears in PATTAYA ONE: _____ American Jumps to his Death from North Pattaya Hotel Police Lieutenant Colonel Pongsawat from Pattaya Police Station was called to the Markland Hotel located in Soi 1 off Pattaya Second Road early on Wednesday Morning to investigate reports of an apparent suicide involving a foreign man. At the scene, Police inspected the body of Mr. Christopher Kerry Rozier aged 41 from California, USA. He was known to be residing at the R-Con Apartments in Soi Boekeow in room number A315, however Police are unsure why he apparently chose the Markland Hotel to jump from. The body was found on a flat roof of an adjoining building. An apparent suicide note was found in his trouser pocket which requested that two people back in the USA should be contacted, one of which was his former Thai Wife, Khun Sujittra who resides in USA. The note also gave permission for his organs to be donated to someone in need and he requested that his body be cremated here in Thailand. A motive behind the apparent suicide has not been determined at this point and staff at the R-Con Apartments mentioned that Mr. Rozier informed them that he would extend his stay at the Apartments earlier this week. The American Embassy have been informed of the death and Police are continuing their investigation into the death at this time.

I can't help but wonder how many people who are posting on these threads about CCTV on this and other boards are actually here in Pattaya and seeing for themselves. LP is right. I've looked for these cameras and I can't spot any of them. Also, some people are under the impression that only the gay bars are required to have these cameras. The requirement applies to every bar in Pattaya, whether gay, straight, mixed, or what-have-you. It's not even limited to the bars. Many hotels have them too. It's hard for me to believe that any rational person is actually convinced that the police are going around to every bar every day, or even some of the bars some of the days, collecting the CCTV tapes, and then are sitting there viewing them all in an attempt to see if any farang happened to be seated with an under-age boy, which in itself isn't even illegal. Just for the sake of argument, let's suppose that's exactly what the police are doing. Ok, under poor lighting conditions and poor quality tapes, they would have to be able to identify the farang, identify the boy, find out the boy's actual age, find out the name of the farang, find out where he is staying, or conduct some sort of a stake-out in hopes that same farang will show up again, and then arrest him. This whole thing keeps moving further and further toward the top of my "I Don't Get It" list. If nothing else, the requirement is only that the bars have CCTV cameras installed. I know of no actual requirement that they even be in working order or even activated. Someone said he heard that one bar owner is turning tapes over to the police in order to keep out of trouble himself. That was based on an Email a user received and to my knowledge, nothing about that was ever substantiated. That was weeks ago already. Supposedly, the bar in question is one of the bars that routinely hires under-age boys. Ok, anybody heard about any arrests as a result of those tapes? Has anybody even heard a rumor about such an arrest? Certainly, if that was the intent of those tapes, the police have had plenty of time to start arresting people. Somebody else said maybe there have been arrests, but the media isn't reporting it. Right. Every time a pedophile is arrested the media is always champing at the bit to publicize it and the police love to parade those who have been arrested in front of the news cameras, but they're keeping quiet about CCTV tape arrests? Somebody is going to have a very difficult time convincing me that is the case. Folks, for all we know some of these bars may have had CCTV cameras in place ever since they were first invented. Everybody seems to be assuming that none of the bars ever had any until it became mandatory. I make no such assumption. Some people are saying the cameras are an intrusion on privacy. I disagree with that because I don't see how people can be sitting in a go go bar, in full view of anybody else who happens to be in there or walks in, and then figures his privacy is being invaded. I also remind you that Thai law does not include western ideas about privacy rights. Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore. In short, and this is only my opinion and I do make room for the possibility I could be totally wrong, but I think this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion, to the point it has virtually become paranoia. You can do what you want, think what you want, and be as afraid as you want to be, but as for me I'm not going to start worrying until there is something to worry about. When I see that people have been so much as inconvenienced because of the CCTV cameras, let alone actually arrested or questioned, that's when I'll start worrying. Until then, life goes on . . .

I didn't go for a sleep study, but I studied in my sleep . . . way back when they used to sell language instruction records, to learn in your sleep. I wanted to learn Spanish. The trouble was the record kept skipping, so I only learned to stutter in Spanish.

Thank you for the information, but why didn't you ask? Also, I'm pinning this topic. Obviously this is now a requirement, so everyone who needs to report his address needs to be aware of it.

A Message by George Carlin: The paradox of our time in history is that we have taller buildings but shorter tempers, wider Freeways, but narrower viewpoints. We spend more, but have less, we buy more, but enjoy less. We have bigger houses and smaller families, more conveniences, but less time. We have more degrees but less sense, more knowledge, but less judgment, more experts, yet more problems, more medicine, but less wellness. We drink too much, smoke too much, spend too recklessly, laugh too little, drive too fast, get too angry, stay up too late, get up too tired, read too little, watch TV too much, and pray too seldom. We have multiplied our possessions, but reduced our values. We talk too much, love too seldom, and hate too often. We've learned how to make a living, but not a life. We've added years to life not life to years. We've been all the way to the moon and back, but have trouble crossing the street to meet a new neighbor. We conquered outer space but not inner space. We've done larger things, but not better things. We've cleaned up the air, but polluted the soul We've conquered the atom, but not our prejudice. We write more, but learn less. We plan more, but accomplish less. We've learned to rush, but not to wait. We build more computers to hold more information, to produce more copies than ever, but we communicate less and less. These are the times of fast foods and slow digestion, big men and small character, steep profits and shallow relationships These are the days of two incomes but more divorce, fancier houses, but broken homes. These are days of quick trips, disposable diapers, throwaway morality, one night stands, overweight bodies, and pills that do everything from cheer, to quiet, to kill. It is a time when there is much in the showroom window and nothing in the stockroom. A time when technology can bring this letter to you, and a time when you can choose either to share this insight, or to just hit delete... Remember; spend some time with your loved ones, because they are not going to be around forever. Remember, say a kind word to someone who looks up to you in awe, because that little person soon will grow up and leave your side. Remember, to give a warm hug to the one next to you, because that is the only treasure you can give with your heart and it doesn't cost a cent. Remember, to say, 'I love you' to your partner and your loved ones, but most of all mean it. A kiss and an embrace will mend hurt when it comes from deep inside of you. Remember to hold hands and cherish the moment for someday that person will not be there again. Give time to love, give time to speak! And give time to share the precious thoughts in your mind. AND ALWAYS REMEMBER: Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. If you don't send this to at least 8 people....Who cares? George Carlin

I now have confirmation that is acceptable to me. The Birdcage bar has closed.

There is a long thread on the Baht-Stop forum about this subject. I've stated my opinions on that thread, so I'm not going to repeat them here. But I will say that a friend and I went through most of the Sunee Plaza bars this evening. Between the dim lighting and the strobe lights I doubt that the CCTV cameras could pick up a decent image of anyone. To my mind, it's all very simple. If you have misgivings about the CCTV cameras, then don't go into the bars. We can post back and forth from now until Kingdom Come our opinions about it, the intrusion on privacy, the potential for blackmail, and God-knows-what, but meanwhile the cameras are there to stay. The bar owners are not at fault. They had to comply. So, to me the bottom line is: If you oppose the CCTV cameras, then what do you think can be done about it?

The latest information I have is that Birdcage has indeed silently closed. I cannot confirm that yet, but my information is coming from highly reliable sources. At this moment, that's the best I can tell you.

The Bondi hotel and bar, in Jomtien Complex, has closed. I'm very sorry to see yet another gay establishment close its doors.

I'm guessing you are talking about the Residence Certificate. Assuming this requirement is being applied universally, it's something new to all of us. I've seen nothing about it on other web sites and have not heard anything other than what has been posted here. It's too early to know what is going on or what is and is not acceptable. It's going to take several people going and reporting their experience before that question can be answered. For the moment, I would say to take it with you, along with other documents that are likely to be acceptable and ask. I would first try to report my address as I always have and see if they even ask for any proof. If they do, try the Residence Certificate. If they accept it, you have your answer. If they don't, then we'll know that alone is not enough.

For the past few nights, the Birdcage bar has been closed. Recently, rumors were rampant about the imminent demise of the Birdcage. I haven't heard anything. I'm wondering if anyone knows whether the closings over the past few nights is something temporary or whether the Birdcage has passed into history.

There's always one jerk who manages to make things difficult for everyone else. To tell the truth, I'm surprised they didn't always require documentation. If you are living here legitimately, it should be no problem, as long as you don't forget to take the documents with you when you go in to submit the report.

If you are staying at the Tarntawan, I think the best thing for you to do is check with them personally when you get there. They have all the latest information and they will be able to give you the best advice. Also, Utopia Tours operates from the Tarntawan. They are the best for showing you around and their guides speak English.

Thursday, July 17 and Friday, July 18 mark two major Buddhist holidays in Thailand. July 17 is Asalaha Bucha Day. July 18 is Khao Pansaa, the more important of the two holidays. Khao Pansaa is the beginning of Buddhist Lent. On both days banks and government offices will be closed. Alcohol sales will not be permitted. I have no word yet as to whether the bars will be allowed to remain open if they serve only non-alcoholic beverages.

U.S. Citizen Consular Outreach Visit to Pattaya Friday, July 18, 8:00 AM to 12:00 PM Dusit Thani Hotel The Consular Section of the American Embassy in Bangkok is pleased to inform you of the addition of a consular outreach visit to Pattaya. Please come if you can! Consular staff will be available to provide consular services at the following date and location: Friday, July 18, 8:00 AM to 12:00 PM at the Dusit Thani Hotel in Pattaya. Please look for signs in the hotel lobby pointing to the location of the outreach. The following consular services will be available during our reach visits. Please bring exact change. * Passport renewal applications ($75.00 or Baht 1550 for adult passports, and $85 or Baht 2890 for a child’s passport) * Notarial Services and Certified Copies ($30.00 or Baht 1020) * Absentee ballot application and voting abroad information * Social security, VA or other federal benefits question will be limited, but we will try to provide forms and answers NOTE: Unfortunately, we cannot process extra visa pages during our outreach trips. We can accept applications, but the passports will have to be brought back to the Embassy for final processing the next day. The passports will then have to be picked up in person (or by a friend upon presentation of a letter of authorization signed by the applicant) at the Embassy. We regret any inconvenience caused by this change in procedure, and we are still working on gaining authorization to begin mailing passports back to applicants. Additionally, Consular Reports of Birth cannot be processed during consular outreach trips. If you have any questions, please e-mail: acsbkk@state.gov or call the American Citizen Services Unit at: 02-205-4049. We look forward to seeing you in Pattaya on July 18, 2008.

Not me. I say bring him on! I think it would be wonderful if he gets caught fondling a boy on the CCTV cameras or, better yet, gets arrested for having sex with an under-age boy. Now that's something I'd love to see . . . . . I think it would be poetic justice if he ends up on a shit list because he is a middle-aged male who visited Thailand. Come to think of it, he's already on a shit list or two, isn't he? He certainly made it to the top spot on my "I Don't Get It" list.

Deed poll? That is a term unfamiliar to me. What does it mean?