Marc308

Let me go back to my OP. When Jim and Gordon came to town, there was almost no precedent elsewhere in the gay world for the kind of interesting (and profitable!) businesses they built -- a pleasant, clean hotel; a nice friendly restaurant with a variety of cuisines; a bar (BBB) which packed them in every night to overflowing while still offering drinks at a reasonable price (99 baht). All this was innovative and revolutionary. Their foresight and creativity made a whole industry in Boystown, with spillovers in Sunee, Day & Night, and even North Pattaya. Their concepts were entirely appropriate for the 1980s/1990s. We must move on OR face extinction. Especially in low-season, going to a bar nowadays is an expensive, forlorn and lonely experience with dispirited boys using their smartphones, expats chatting with each other oblivious to most other goings-on, loud music which is usually ear-splitting. I'd say the biggest innovation since, and perhaps the one which has the longest staying power, is the appointed massage. Maybe this model will grow more (will Soda Massage adopt it?) And yes I found the 3 hour trip to Jey Spa to be well worth the time spent, just to get out of Pattaya for awhile: Super clean, nice guys, more or less reasonable prices. Why don't we have a decent one in Pattaya?? That would be a start.

BINGO wow that's the most exciting innovation I have heard of from Jomtien in YEARS!! :0 Some genius at @Home must have dreamt that one up to excite the crowds! Seriously folks, aren't there better ways to "have fun" than sit around punishing our livers while passively oogling the merchandise? You know many years ago Jim Lumsden and Gordon May came to town and built Boys Boys Boys and the Ambiance Hotel and totally revolutionized the gay scene in Pattaya. It was hard work, and risky work. Just WHEN is the next generation of innovators going to remake our precious city into an appropriate 21st century scene? The current "ambiance" doesn't appear to be working for anyone under 50. Just stroll through JC to see the graying of our compatriots. The clock is ticking!

Good point. I've seen too many of our brethren actively plying young boys with cigarettes, potentially condemning them to a life of coughing and wheezing, addiction to high priced cigarettes, and potentially to lung and other cancers. No one should feel obliged to drink, smoke or do drugs of any kind. I should hasten to add "unsafe sex" to the list as well!

Yes I've been in that office one time and was hoping for listing of rentals. Instead the staff were intent on selling me a new unit. Perhaps I should have prevailed longer in asking for medium-term rentals, but it was obvious their bread and butter was from commissions selling new units in whatever VT#n was on the market at the time. The frailty and disorganization of the real estate market in Pattaya never ceases to amaze me. There must be a better way... Some entrepreneur out there should try to make a consolidated listing website. Just a pipe dream I guess.

Thanks MFJ that information is very helpful thanks!

Sure you will! Keep trying! Even cursory conversation skills will add immeasurably to your experiences in the LOS! I remember one of my earliest trips to Thailand I met a western guy who (working here?) was so fluent in Thai. I said to myself that I could never master the mysterious language either. Well after some years of work (yes it is work) and many language books, conversational tapes, trying to read and pronounce, understanding tones and high-low vowels, etc. I've made reasonably good progress. But yes it does take WORK. If you are older than 3 years old (ahem), language is learned by WORKING. (Oh how I am jealous of those 3 year olds who speak so much more fluently than me!)

Thanks. Well as for the VTs, there seems to be an agency on Thappraya Road, which does do listings for all the VTs it appears. And yes there are agencies near most/all of the large condo complexes (there are two very near Jomtien Complex Condotel) but neither appeared to be interested in multi-month rentals. It's either short stay (read, by the day) or long-term (usually 6 months minimum). Using short-stay rates, a multi-month rental would cost about 2x or 3x more than monthly market rates. VT1 and VT2 may be an exception?

That's a challenge! My favorite but a bit pricey is Grand Centre Point Terminal 21, at Asok. VERY convenient to both BTS and MRT and Airport Line (Makkasan). The one-bedroom apartments on offer are spectacular, and super cheap by western standards but quite expensive by Thai standards. About $149/night on Agoda if you look for bargains. The same apartment in my home city would be around $800/night. LWLT

+1

Yes it's true that walk-in at Jey Spa is possible but the manager makes it clear that this is not the preferred method. I think this is because it seems that most moneyboys don't want to hang around the shop for hours on end hoping for a customer. It makes sense. The boys save time. The shop (probably) saves space and money. The customer is more(?) likely to get what they are looking for, perhaps. Although it is admittedly difficult to decipher from a still photo. For me bearing and attitude make a big difference. I've run in my loong life into many Muscle Mary's where "tops" are really bottoms, and "bottoms" are really equivocal.

After renting the same place in Dongtan each year for many years, I am ready to move on. There seem to be great places to rent as short stay condos, and yearly condos, and maybe even a condo for 1 month, but there seem to be a dearth of ways to rent a multi-month, fully furnished serviced apartment in Jomtien/Dongtan. There seems to be no organized marketplace, and you are at the mercy of finding a single owner with whom you can negotiate a deal. Case in point, a few days ago, I went to the main desk at Jomtien Complex Condotel and asked what rentals are available. The desk person rummaged through his notes and phoned a Chinese lady (who could barely speak English) as his answer. FYI I am looking at some place near Dongtan and JC, for 3 months next year, a well-equipped two-bedroom, two-bath condo. I am considering VT8, Jomtien Plaza Condotel, JCC, Grand Condotel... but have no idea how I can access this market. I'd appreciate it if anybody has any suggestions how go about it?

Yes I've been there recently. My experience was good altho the menu was a bit limited when I visited (maybe 8 guys available?) (at 6pm on a weekday) The manager is helpful if a bit intrusive. Services were good but not of the highest caliber, in my opinion. Room prices are moderate, and reasonably clean. The showers work. It uses the old style (no reservations) which seems to be disappearing in many of the more upscale venues (like Jey Spa). HTH

There is no such thing as good American food, he was right. When I think of eating in my own country my mind wonders to the Jewish delis on the Lower East Side of NY, the amazing BBQ brisket in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, or Memphis, Tennessee and perhaps the Creole cuisine in New Orleans. Nothing else much tempts my palate, no matter how many "gourmet" hamburgers I eat. : ) In fact the best "gourmet hamburgers" are now served by bistros in France!

Oh god touristy Windsor! One of the worst meals I have ever had in my life was, gasp, Fish n Chips at the Duchess of Cambridge restaurant on High Street there. At BP44 it was the most disgusting FnC I have ever had. Unfortunately apparently the monarchy never promoted a "British cuisine". Being so near Windsor Castle, and being named for the next British Queen, to serve such horrible food was a mystery to me. Anyway, back to Pattaya. I had a huge surprise a few days ago when eating at Yayoi on the 5th floor at Central Festival. Surprisingly excellent Japanese food! Succulent salmon sashimi. Super fresh Shrimp Tempura. Excellent Chicken Teriyaki. All at prices which were 1/3 of what they would have been back home. I am definitely going back! Anybody care to join us?

Haha I am always suspicious of Britishers' food recommendations. I used to see a sign on Thappraya which read "Indian food to British taste" which marked it for me as a restaurant to be avoided at all costs. : ) I once had Phad Thai at the Blue Elephant in London (supposedly THE Thai restaurant there at the time) for the most insipid version of the dish I have every tasted. While I have managed to piss off many of my friends here now, hehe, let's continue on undaunted with the worst cuisine in the world: Britain, USA, Australia. Best food in the world: Lebanon, Iran, Morocco, Brasil, Thailand of course! And perhaps Italy and France, although the standards of food in those two countries has gone rapidly downhill in recent years. India deserves honorable mention -- especially for its Punjabi dishes and heavenly Hyderabadi biryanis. Here my favorite dish is pad siu gai, well prepared just slightly burnt, using all the condiments in the usual 4-glass condiment tray in ample measure which is an ubiquitous dish in Thailand.

Oh gosh, not again. The drama around this place has been swirling for far too long. It's a pity really.

Boys' memories are amazing! I think they can (genuinely) recall us far better than we can recall them. Not sure why but it really does seem the case. Which probably means details of our encounters (for good or bad) are also easily recalled. :0

Oops, got cut off... 2. Repeat performances are much more likely to fail. Perhaps one's expectations run too high, or perhaps it is boredom (I've seen this movie before) or ...? Of course perhaps passion can persist, for a week, for a month, for a year, even forever (I've been with my bf for over 30 years!) but in general the likelihood of failure is greater. 3. The more early conversation turns to protracted price negotiations, the more fraught the encounter is likely to be. High fees usually correlate to low performance. 4. Language fluency is not a measure of success. What do you think? Marc

From a Wordpress post: "You can choose and choose and get the perfect Greek God but looks provide no guarantee of a good time in the room." This observation has haunted me for some time. What really are the predictors of a nice time? We've all, I'm sure, had a quota of duds, and also our quota of surprising successes when expectations were low. I'd appreciate your comments on this. Here are some of my observations -- well it seems to be more of what is NOT correlated than what is: 1. The Greek God ("ain't I gorgeous-type") is likely to fail. I've found the best are those simpler guys who seemingly don't realize how gorgeous/masculine they really are.

Congrats Vinapu and MFJ you two are a marvel! I'm happy to hear you had a great time. I know it is hard enough to get two people organized on a trip, but I wonder if there are any couples who would also like to hang out together? My BH and I will be in Pattaya during July and August. We are both "mature" if you get my drift. Singles are great too. More friends are always welcome!

Gosh MFJ if someone as nice and kind as you cannot explain this phenomenon, then the situation cannot be explained. There is (seemingly) a distrust of "outsiders" and paranoia about putting a moat around their world: "Will he steal my bf?" "Will he tempt away my best boy?" "Will he disrupt my routine?" We can either complain about this situation, or we can do something about it. I am glad to see some members of this board getting together (MFJ and Vinapu, I salute you!) Perhaps we need to have a (better) way of signaling our openness to meeting up? Alas sites as this were designed to being "discreet" and slightly mysterious which makes making a friendship connection all that more challenging. So here is my outreach: My BH and I (both "of a certain age", read "old"!) are going from BKK to VN (Saigon) for a week or so in early August. We plan to stay mostly in HCMC but plan to take the train up to Nha Trang for a few days as well. We've been to VN each year now for the past 3 years so we are pretty comfortable there. We'd be happy for a single person (or another couple) join us, especially someone who has wanted to go there but, for whatever reason, hasn't gone yet. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss this, or would like to meet up otherwise in Pattaya or Bangkok during the months of July and August for dinner (Cafe des Amis?, Yupins?, Beirut (Silom), Shahrazad (Sukhimvit) or ...?) or just socializing.

There were many places on the globe where male companionship was for sale, mainly for female consumption. Despite admonitions from the British missionaries (who came to do good and yes they did very well!), during the hay-day of the ocean liner trade rich women from god-only-knows-where would come and canoodle with the Hawaiian beachboys. They were a major attraction! They brought in many tourists. You can read about all this in Michener's book Hawaii if you are interested. The Hawaiian culture has a far looser attitude toward sexuality than the uptight Protestants.

I remember Hugh very well. And yes he was/is? a kind soul. He split from Jim/Gordon and then went to work as a maitre d at Casa Pascal, after that I lost track of him. He often could be found in the basement of the Ambiance counting purple bills from the last night's take in BBB. He once told me the only money that the BBB/Ambiance complex ever made was from the sale of the drinks in BBB. Everything else was a loss-leader. Interesting.

BBB was once like Dolly Parton's "Best Little Whorehouse in Texas"... just a little thrill along with lots of fun (and booze). Yes, it was once the undisputed jewel, run impeccably by Jim and Gordon and Philip and Dtan and Lek. It was all downhill the moment Jim sold out to the Swiss (now to the Chinese). Jim and crew were trusted members of our community. To answer your question, MFJ, well now for me BBB is a total bore. I wouldn't spend a baht to go into that place. The last time I went there I chastised myself for going into that crazy place. And since BBB was the cornerstone of BT, BT also necessarily predictably began to fall apart too. Today's price is totally ridiculous given the value they offer. Once the "screaming Chinese women" get sick of the "thrill", I predict BBB, and most silly old-format boy bars, will pass from the scene. It's time for a renaissance and renewal, guys, updating to the current age of technology and social habit. We need a new, risk-taking, imaginative, fun-loving pioneer like Jim was back then to reinvent the gay adventure. It seems that the most innovative approaches of late have come to the Bangkok massage houses, with their "easy to peruse, easy to book, stated minimum tips" and more. In even this obviously more efficient and transparent concept, the Pattaya "houses of questionable repute" have not seemed to keep pace.

I've always wondered why those myriads of same-same bars don't somehow manage to merge their "talents", and thus for the area to truly become a "SUPERtown" rather than a collection of hopelessly uneconomic shops. They need economy-of-scale and they need to have variety and they need to have a decent environment. Those characteristics cost money, real money; I am really surprised that more bars have not closed in JC. The reason that Jim's BBB was successful is that he understood this concept and thus BT grew and prospered. And I totally agree about the "numbness" of the current concept -- "sit and drink and gawk" -- that only goes so far to keep people's interest. You need energy and expectation and entertainment. I agree with GIP that gay bars are an anachronism, they are a throwback to the "hush-hush" era where we were all constrained and needed a place to "be free". Japan is a good example of this. In those days of ore when I frequented bars in Shinjuku and Shibuya, the bars were small and you needed to be cleared by an all-knowing door person to even gain access to the bar. Once inside the "host" would then introduce you to each of the guys in the small (10?) crowd. It was because most of the guys in those bars were heading for the last train home to their wives, so you had to be fast!