Did Judge Dugan go too far?

[stevenkesslar]

1 hour ago, unicorn said:

The point is that the "legal nuances," while perhaps an interesting subject for debate, are irrelevant in this discussion. Whether or not she had the legal right to ignore the warrant isn't the issue. Certainly she was not obliged to ignore the warrant. Therefore, the relevant questions are (1) Did the defendant receive due legal process prior to receiving a valid deportation order? and (2) Is he a violent criminal whose presence presents a danger to the public? The answer to both of those questions is plainly yes. As you stated, helping this criminal evade the law is stupid, and I'd also say immoral. I also agree that it's a black eye to any party who'd claim it's a good idea to help this man evade the law. Whether or not the judge will face legal consequences or not (such as losing her spot on the bench, or even her law license) is a separate debate, and is a smokescreen, rather than the important issue. 
 

I think it's better if we just agree to disagree.

Your main point is that you don't like what she did.  Fine.  There is no poll on that.  But there is a poll that says most Democrats and Republicans agree that most judges are not "fair and impartial".  So I think most people would agree with you that Dugan was not being fair and impartial in this situation.  In my words, not hers, she told ICE to go fuck off, basically.  You don't like that, especially if it is stated that way.  To quote you directly, it was "stupid" and "immoral".  Fine.  Most people might agree with you.

I have two main points, neither of which you agree with, or even understand.

First, the law does matter.  That is actually the point.  You have made clear that "legal nuances" are not the point to you, and you don't care.  And now you are back to your imaginary deportation order.  So here we go again.   THERE WAS NO DEPORTATION ORDER.  IT DID NOT EXIST.  YOU KEEP MAKING THAT UP.  It is the kind of "legal nuance" that bores you, I guess.

The guy was deported once, shortly after an "expedited" deportation order was put together back in 2013, when Deporter In Chief Obama was President.  Somehow he got back in.  No article I have read said when, or how.  ICE finds out about this by matching fingerprints after he beats the shit out of his roommate for playing music too loud.  They put together an administrative arrest warrant, which means ICE's "do it yourself" arrest warrant, not an arrest warrant by a judge.  That is a "legal nuance" that matters a lot, and will be important when Dugan herself has to defend her actions in court.  But there was no deportation order, period.  ICE had an arrest warrant and they planned to arrest the guy.  Your position is that Dugan should have helped ICE, or at least should not have allegedly helped the guy they came there to arrest.  Fine.  Again, I suspect if this were polled most people would agree with you.  Certainly most Republicans.  And the immigration activists who would disagree with you are the problem, as I have made clear.  They pushed Biden to do things he could have resisted, but did not.  So middle America got pissed, and that led to Trump.  I have no problem blaming a lot of this on immigration activists who could be labelled as "fanatics".

My second point is that Trump is now fucking up, by targeting judges rather than illegal immigrants.  No matter what you think about what Judge Dugan did, that is just a fact now.  He now has net disapproval on immigration.  And I think the reason is clear.  Most Americans want him to follow the law.  Even though they also think most judges, like Dugan, are hardly fair and impartial.  I cited the polls above.  So, even if you think she should be jailed or deported, what I think you fail to recognize is that she is winning the political fight.  If Trump is making the target judges, and due process, he is the one losing.  The polls show this.  He is a moron.  Dugan will likely have zero consequences, even if they prosecute her - which they may not, when smarter people than Trump think through that it just looks bad to try to jail a social justice activist judge. And, to be be clear, I am not saying Dugan picked this fight.  That is the point, too.  She did not pick this fight.  Trump and ICE did.  Which is just really fucking stupid on their part, no matter what you think about Dugan.  They could have just arrested the guy, which they did, and left her alone.  I think Dugan herself sees this.  Because she understands these nuances of the law that you are unconcerned with.

Quote

As you stated, helping this criminal evade the law is stupid

This is just repetitive, but that is untrue.  I did not say Dugan was stupid, or that her actions were stupid.  I said Trump is a moron.  Or stupid.  Or whatever similar word you want to use.  It is stupid of him to go after a judge based on due process.  And his stupidity is being rewarded with plummeting poll ratings on an issue he was winning.  Now he is losing.  He is a moron.  That concept is simple.

I don't view Dugan as immoral, or stupid.  She is a social justice warrior.  I can't read her mind. But it's a safe bet that she feels she did the right thing and followed the law.  On a much more general level, it would be fair enough to say that I think immigration activists were stupid.  But I would not use that word.  They were fighting for what they believed in, as is Judge Dugan.  So stupid is not the best word.  They went too far, and they did not heed the warnings they were going too far.  Biden, unlike Obama, was stupid for not saying NO earlier.  But this is politics.  Dugan seems to be politically nimble.

There is another nuance here, political rather than legal, that you don't get.  It follows that if everyone spent as much time as we have picking this apart, what Dugan did might help Trump.  For sure, if every judge in America organized together and they all called for immigration officials to be jailed, there would be a massive reaction against that.  But that is not what is happening.  Most people seem to care about political nuances as much as you care about legal ones.  Trump knows that, and keeps saying, "I am going after bad hombres who beat their wives."  And people want that.  I sure do.  But the minute he says, "I am going after a judge," that shifts very quickly.  The nuances don't really matter.  Then people say, "Oh, Trump is not following the law."  That is what is happening right now.  The polls confirm it.  You can dislike what Dugan did but still see this as political stupidity on Trump's part.  He is stupid for picking fights with judges.  Period.

[unicorn]

10 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

... I did not say Dugan was stupid, or that her actions were stupid...

Yes, you did: "... I think it is also true that it would be stupid for Democrats, or judges, to defend wife beaters who break the law..." (your words). Having memory problems lately? And, yes, he did have a valid deportation order, even if it did date back to 2013 (in Obama's day). I'm certainly not here to defend Trump, whom I despise. But it's extremists such as yourself and that judge who cause people to rally behind Trump, which is most unfortunate. As for Dugan, she's been removed from the bench by Wisconsin's Supreme Court. So much for "legal nuances." We'll see what the Grand Jury says. Regardless, what she did was stupid (as you know), and feeds right into Trump's hands. 

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2025/04/29/wisconsin-supreme-court-suspends-judge-hannah-dugan-after-charges/83354123007/

"The Wisconsin Supreme Court has suspended Milwaukee County Circuit Judge Hannah Dugan because she was charged with two federal counts on allegations of trying to help an undocumented immigrant avoid arrest after he appeared in her courtroom. Under the Supreme Court's order, Dugan is not allowed to carry out her responsibilities as a Milwaukee County judge beginning April 29 "until further order of the court."...".

https://www.cnn.com/2025/04/29/us/judge-hannah-dugan-suspended-immigrant-arrest/index.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/milwaukee-judge-suspended-hannah-dugan-rcna203629

"...The Wisconsin Supreme Court's order bars Milwaukee County Circuit Court Judge Hannah Dugan from her position while the federal charges are adjudicated. The court, which said it was acting on its own and not in response to a request from anyone, said the order was intended to protect public confidence in Wisconsin courts...".

[stevenkesslar]

3 hours ago, unicorn said:

Yes, you did: "... I think it is also true that it would be stupid for Democrats, or judges, to defend wife beaters who break the law..." (your words)

You're funny.

Seriously.  We should just agree to disagree.  This was interesting for me because I learned some things, albeit about "legal nuances". 

But you really should take my word for what I said.  It would be stupid for Democrats, or judges, to defend wife beaters who break the law. I said that, and I stand by it.  And now I have to defend it.  I did not say that was what Dugan did.  For example, if she said "ICE is full of Nazis, you are evil, and I will not let you assholes torture this poor innocent man," that would be an extreme example of a stupid judge saying stupid shit defending someone who broke the law.  But she did none of that.  And we actually don't know if he is a criminal, regarding any allegations of what he did to his roommate.  But we do know he did enter the US illegally and was deported in 2013.

If you think Dugan defended anything the guy did, you are again factually incorrect.  Note that most of what we know about what she said is from ICE, and their written documentation.  We know she asked them about an arrest warrant.   And what type it was.   We know she directed them to the chief judge.  So she was not defending a wife beater who breaks the law.  She was defending due process.

These nuances do not concern you.  You have made a perfectly fine argument that Dugan is stupid, and immoral.  But don't put that on me.  It does make sense to me that you can only see this one way:  she is stupid, and immoral.  It follows that unless she is helping ICE, she must be defending a wife beater.  That is how you appear to see it. I did not say that, and I don't think that.

I do think it is smart that the Wisconsin Supreme Court suspended her.  But you obviously don't agree with, or perhaps understand, my political point.  When Trump is going after illegal immigrants who beat their wives, he is winning.  Polls show that.  When he is going after judges, he is losing.  Polls show that.  So the more this is about Dugan, a judge, I don't see how that helps Trump or ICE in any way.  It of course depends on whether they prosecute her, and what happens.  If she did not break the law, she will be a hero and martyr to many. That does not help Trump or ICE.  We can be certain that Dugan's attorney will not argue she was trying to defend the actions of a criminal.  The attorney will argue she was defending due process and the rule of law.  Again, these nuances are not of interest to you.  You think she is stupid and immoral.

One other new point, that just goes more into nuances that disinterest you. 

It would be interesting to know what Dugan was thinking.  On one end, there are good MAGA folk who I'm sure feel like unless she was bending over backward to help ICE, she is immoral.  Immigration activists will treat her like Joan of Arc.  But what was she actually thinking when she did what she did?  The comical thing to me is that I'm guessing (I'm not a lawyer) that to find her guilty of helping this guy, they have to show intent.  Like she would have to say, "I wanted to help him evade ICE.  That was my plan."  And she is a judge, who knows the law.  So I think we already know that she will likely argue her concern is due process and the rule of law.  The last thing she or her attorney will likely do is say she was trying to help a criminal avoid arrest.  

Again, at this point it is almost all just repetition.  I think we have both learned whatever we are willing to learn.