Members stevenkesslar Posted May 19 Author Members Posted May 19 1 hour ago, Suckrates said: I really DONT think most voters are as wrapped up in politics as you are, and as I have become ? No shit. The only question in my mind is whether I am more into politics than 99 % of people, or 99.9 % of people. Especially now I have to be careful. Most of my friends and family are Democrats or Democrat leaners. And they really don't even want to talk about this shit anymore. They are either enraged, and it just gets them worked up. Or they just want to tune out a situation they can't stand and will change as quickly as they can next year. I am pretty sure lots of people have a good reason to vote against this shit, and will. You and I do reach slightly different conclusions about the people who vote for Trump at the margin. Meaning NOT the core voters, but the ones that deprived him of the votes to win in 2020 but gave him the votes to win in 2024. My point is that people driven by racism voted for Trump in 2016, and 2020, and 2024. There is no question who they will vote for, and no way to change their minds. There just are not enough of them to ensure he wins. Studies have proven that, I think. And if they were 50% + of Americans, Trump would have won by 50%+ in 2016 and 2020. We agree that most people are not going to pay a whole lot of attention to politics. And especially in close races like 2024 the winner often gets decided by the people who care the least about politics, and are least likely to vote. That was definitely true in 2024. The people who care least about politics and are least likely to vote did vote for Trump, and gave him his narrow edge. So the hard core racists were always for Trump, and always will be. The hard core lefties or Gay activists will always be against him. It's these people who are disinterested and may not even bother to vote who we can largely thank for Trump 2.0. So mostly to me what it means is that Democrats better not create a situation like that, if we can avoid it. But if we create a situation where people who are not interested in politics and may not even vote end up thinking anything else would be better than this shit, that is what allows Trump to get just enough votes to win. Which he did. To me that is a pretty simple explanation. Quote
Members Suckrates Posted May 19 Members Posted May 19 9 hours ago, stevenkesslar said: We agree that most people are not going to pay a whole lot of attention to politics. And especially in close races like 2024 the winner often gets decided by the people who care the least about politics, and are least likely to vote. That was definitely true in 2024. The people who care least about politics and are least likely to vote did vote for Trump, and gave him his narrow edge. So the hard core racists were always for Trump, and always will be. The hard core lefties or Gay activists will always be against him. It's these people who are disinterested and may not even bother to vote who we can largely thank for Trump 2.0. So mostly to me what it means is that Democrats better not create a situation like that, if we can avoid it. But if we create a situation where people who are not interested in politics and may not even vote end up thinking anything else would be better than this shit, that is what allows Trump to get just enough votes to win. Which he did. To me that is a pretty simple explanation. LOL yeah, its simple, but disturbing..... the racist lunatics will stay crazy and stuck on Trump and everyone else will get exhausted and Trumplogged, and just tune out, giving Trump or Trump-like a 2028 WIN. Quote
Stable Genius Posted May 20 Posted May 20 But, but, but…Trump said the other countries would pay the tariffs, not us. Asking Walmart to "eat the costs" seems to imply differently. It's almost like Trump lied about the tariffs in the first place. Surely, THAT can't be true, can it? Like Mexico paying for the Wall. EmmettKlown? Fucknaway? Quote
Stable Genius Posted May 28 Posted May 28 Funny, Trump will use tariffs against our friends, but is hesitant to use sanctions against our enemies. vinapu 1 Quote
Members Pete1111 Posted May 29 Members Posted May 29 Trump is deporting the cheapest segment of US labor, which gradually moves the social security fund closer to insolvency (workers paying into the fund that will never collect). How will the economic engine work if cheapest labor slips away? Oh right, tariffs. So much $$ coming in. 🤣 Stable Genius 1 Quote
Moses Posted May 29 Posted May 29 9 hours ago, Pete1111 said: cheapest segment of US labor Do you mean illegal workers? Those who don't pay taxes, who get paid in cash, who don't contribute a single tax dollar to local fire, police, environment, roads, telecommunications, medicine, education, but still benefit from all of this? 9 hours ago, Pete1111 said: moves the social security fund Do illegal workers use the social fund? Some kind of logical contradiction: if they are illegal, why do they have the opportunity to use the social fund? And if they work, then why do they use the fund? Isn't it for the unemployed? (I honestly don't know how it works in the US) 9 hours ago, Pete1111 said: Oh right, tariffs. So much $$ coming in Tariffs aren't for to get more money from import - this is just side-effect. Tariffs create environment which stimulate foreign companies to built factories in the country, create jobs and pay taxes locally: without tariffs company will build factory in the country where labor is cheap, but tariffs may change situation - more expensive labor may be more profitable when company will count cost of cheap labor plus tariff. Also tariffs lowering trade debt of country and lowering price of servicing that debt. Quote
vinapu Posted May 29 Posted May 29 6 hours ago, Moses said: Do you mean illegal workers? Those who don't pay taxes, who get paid in cash, who don't contribute a single tax dollar to local fire, police, environment, roads, telecommunications, medicine, education, but still benefit from all of this? sound plausible but in every economy we will find legal residents locals who also work for cash and never report it i.e. tax cheaters so no reason to single out illegals for tax avoidance. sad truth is , consumers as a whole are beneficiaries of illegals as they perform many jobs locals don't want for a price offered but illegals will do for reason of price / earning difference between country of employment and original country of residence where their families still may live. 1000 rubles saved stretches much further in rural Tajikistan than in Moscow and 1000 $ in provincial Paraguay may buy much more than inside Chicago's loop. In short there's market for their services. Biggest problem and source of resentment is fact that new comers may abuse generosity of social support systems in their host countries. As for not paying taxes, it's also myth to various degree depending on tax regime of country. People may not pay income tax by hiding income but they still pay sales taxes when they purchase goods and also property taxes through rent they pay to their landlords, just to mention those most popular. ( in my country government take from income tax and sales tax is roughly half / half ) I'm not writing that to voice support illegal immigration, just to illustrate that issue is much more complex and multisided than popular clichés in media are making us to believe Quote
Members Pete1111 Posted May 30 Members Posted May 30 14 hours ago, Moses said: Do you mean illegal workers? Those who don't pay taxes, who get paid in cash, who don't contribute a single tax dollar to local fire, police, environment, roads, telecommunications, medicine, education, but still benefit from all of this? Do illegal workers use the social fund? Some kind of logical contradiction: if they are illegal, why do they have the opportunity to use the social fund? And if they work, then why do they use the fund? Isn't it for the unemployed? (I honestly don't know how it works in the US) Tariffs aren't for to get more money from import - this is just side-effect. Tariffs create environment which stimulate foreign companies to built factories in the country, create jobs and pay taxes locally: without tariffs company will build factory in the country where labor is cheap, but tariffs may change situation - more expensive labor may be more profitable when company will count cost of cheap labor plus tariff. Also tariffs lowering trade debt of country and lowering price of servicing that debt. Having an economy that thrives on undocumented workers is like apartheid. No argument from me, except that I'm questioning why react now after decades of living off the fruits of their labor? Why turn on them like is happening? Trump claimed he would get rid of the bad element, and not all undocumented workers. I know, why should we believe him? But either way, Trump is fucking up what has been working by establishing tariffs, by deporting workers, by growing the billionaire class, by pissing on our neighbors, our friends, our allies... vinapu and stevenkesslar 1 1 Quote
Moses Posted May 30 Posted May 30 13 hours ago, vinapu said: they still pay sales taxes when they purchase goods and also property taxes through rent they pay to their landlords, mostly no: they renting property from landlords of their nationality who also do not pay taxes and buy goods in cheap shops where sales mostly going in cash and without taxation Quote
Goober Posted May 30 Posted May 30 The Dunning-Kruger effect describes a cognitive bias where individuals with low competence in a particular area tend to overestimate their abilities, while those with high competence often underestimate their abilities. Quote
vinapu Posted May 30 Posted May 30 9 hours ago, Moses said: mostly no: they renting property from landlords of their nationality who also do not pay taxes and buy goods in cheap shops where sales mostly going in cash and without taxation it depends on country, I was talking more about illegals in USA or broadly in the West where fiscal apparatus is working much better, more than Afghanis in Iran or Zimbabweans in Zambia and similar countries where at end of day not much is provided in terms of government services anyways. ( Property tax if not paid creates lien on property so eventually will be collected along with interest and city or state may even force sale to collect debt owing. Stores , unless dealing with stolen goods at one point are in tax chain- ie when they purchase their stock from wholesalers ) stevenkesslar 1 Quote
