PeterRS

I had several fascinating conversations with bar boys over the years. When Classic Boys had to be closed because of a fire in the premises above, most of the boys were farmed out for a few weeks to other bars. A friend and I were then quite regulars at Solid Bar near Mango Tree. On one visit we noticed a new guy who I asked over for drinks. He had a smile to die for and, surprisingly, spoke very good English. I took him off twice. On the second occasion he came back to my flat where we chatted for at least two hours before moving to the bedroom. What really surprised me was that he was 34 - and looked no more than 24, he was married with two young children, yet happilly bottomed - and sex was among the best I had experienced. Had he not been married and straight, he would certainly have been bf material.

It's a thought, but where would these bottle-buying customers come from? Up to about 10 years ago I recall occasionally seeing older Thais buying bottles and then sharing with the bar boys. Very rarely a farang would do the same. But the mamasans seemed not to like the practice because it kept half a dozen or so boys from dancing and not being avaiable for offs. Now with individual drinks up to 400 baht, I can't imagine what a bar would charge for an entire bottle! I suspect this sort of practice is never going to happen in gogo bars. It surely only happen in up-market bars in places like hotels and clubs where individuals buy by the bottle but are able to keep the bottle on the shelf for their next visits. That is certainly a change from the 'old days'. As far as I recall (and I believe my memory is good), if customers paid the off fee, boys had no choice. They had to go with them. There was rarely if ever a possibility for a boy to say 'No!'

Can I respond although I am rarely in Pattaya? I do think there are some similarities between Bangkok and Pattaya. First, for decades I used to visit the Bangkok bars very regularly - yes, i go as far back as 1979. I loved the bars in the 1980s and 1990s. I loved being a butterfly. But age and relationships caught up with me. Being in a committed partnership I have had no desire for years to go to the bars. Some others are likely to be in the same situation. Second, the increasing wealth in the countryside. There is no longer a supply of Thai boys prepared to strut their stuff in the bars. Hence the need for bar owners to find boys from neighbouring countries most of them working illegally. Third, Thaksin's Social Order Campaigns in the early 2000s. Interior Minister Purachai was determined with unusual zeal for any government minister to rein in the sex trade. A deeply religious man who lived modestly, Purachai seemed hell bent on a one-man crusade with a mission to restore Thai values. His measures were incredibly popular in the countryside and had a greater effect on the bars and bar offerings than perhaps many gay residents and visitors realise. Fourth, AIDS. It may seem odd to suggest that what is now more a chronic illness than a death sentence had an effect on the decline of the bars. Thailand was extremely effective on getting the message about HIV/AIDS out to the country in the late 1980s/1990s when the bars were still doin great business. But parents would certainly have got that message through to their sons, many of whom would be mid-late teens by the early 2010s. My view is that this created a reluctance to work in the bars which were by then attracting vastly more foreigners than Thais. Who knew if any of those foreigners harboured the HIV virus? Probably few, but I suspect enough to affect supply. Of course Thai customers were as likely to be affected as foreigners, but better the devil you know . . . Fifth. Very obviously the apps are a problem for bar owners, particularly if their primary response is to continue increasing drinks prices to ridiculous levels. Those on vacation can save well over 1,000 baht a day by not going to the bars. Sixth. Shows and noise level. I have no desire to see ladyboys miming to pop and Thai songs at noise levels which hurt my hearing. The shows of yesteryear were fun with a variety of interesting acts. Big cock shows are about the only left over. Fascinating for some. Boring for others. Seventh. With one or two exceptions, the bars have failed to accept that their market is changing. They can not exist by coninuing to try appealing to ageing farang. The new Immigration financial requirements brought in 3 years ago rule out retirement in Thailand for more than a few. Brits, for example, who used to make up quite a number of the Pattaya expat community. I have no idea of the numbers now but most older Brits can not meet a regular monthly 65,000 baht income; even less have the ability to lock up 800,000 baht for 5 months of each year and 400,000 for the rest. Lastly, the copycat mentality whereby one bar is more or less the same as the next virtually ensures a continual downhill slide. To quote the late great Ethel Merman, "you gotta have a gimmick." Bar owners need something that marks them out as different and appealing, just as Barbiery was different from Twilight in the early 1990s. It seems Nice Boys has it, although virtually all the boys seem to be straight. Winner seemed to have it with its concentration on twinks. As for others, all I know is what I read here. Over to other posters.

$18:85 is peanuts. Hong Kong squillionaires will pay vast sums for car licence plates. A Rolls Royce owner has BATMAN. 'Lucky' numbers also fetch vast sums. The record for a licence plate at auction last month was US$3.3 million!

I suspect both @reader and @Gaybutton are pretty close to the mark. As was written elsewhere very recently, 40 or so years ago, the boys who worked in the bars were all young Thais from poor upcountry families. The gay bar owners were copying the girlie bar model where nudity at some point in the evening was an important part of the job. It was very obvious that some of the boys at that time felt shy shedding their pants. A few seemed to revel in it. But like it or not, if they were not prepared to get nude, there was no job. More generally Thais have a reluctance to show all their assets. That was equally true in the early saunas. As I know from attending hot springs, Japanese, Koreans, Taiwanese and occasionally some Chinese nationals are mostly perfectly happy being nude in front of others - perhaps in part a hang over from communial bathing which was historically so common in those ountries. But appearing in skimpy briefs is very different in my view. If the boys in the bars find some objection to this, then the bar owners should get rid of them. Dancers in jeans would have zero attraction for me. Only if it is a legal requirement should the bar owners tolerate it IMHO.

Re alcohol, surely one indicator has been the recent World Cup. Many English fans have over decades generally been rgarded as louts at soccer tournaments with many arrested, mostly for drunken behaviour. This year with alcohol outlets very limited, English fans have been praised as "exemplary" with not one arrest.

No doubt some will disagree with me, but I think Thailand should make travel insurance mandatory with quite high minimum limits on the policies. Indeed, i think every country should do the same. It is highly irresponsible for any individual to travel to any country without ensuring your health is protected and you personally are protected finacially from any hurt you may inflict on third parties. Travel policies are not an expensive addtion to over all travel costs. And for regular travellers, annual policies are proportionally even cheaper. For my recent 17 day trip to Taipei, full travel insurance arranged through my bank (which effectively subcontracts through Chubb), cost less than 1,000 baht.

This seems to me almost criminal on the part of the THAI authorities. During covid Cathay sent its unused aircraft to dessert locations in Australia and the USA where there is virtually no moisture in the air. With the high annual humidity in Bangkok and being close to salt water droplets being blown in from the ocean, who knows what disasters face these aircraft down the road?

I have been told I am big - infrequently! But I once met a Japanese boy from an app who claimed to be medium. We arranged to meet in the coffee shop in my hotel so that either of us could call off if we did not like the other. He turned out to be quite gorgeous, exactly as described and we were soon in my room. As we embraced, I was suprised. I told him that what I was feeling was certainly not medium. Nor was it large. It was extra large. I soon discovered I was right! Over six months we met several times. What joy!

Two issues strike me from that damning account. and In other words, Tesco's auditing process and its holier than thou attitude is just a sham. Profts are profits and damn be those who suffer as a result! Shame on them.

Totally agree. I thought it was a fantastic game with some beautiful football. I go one further back than @vinapu as I recall some of the matches in 1966. Whoever would have believed that North Korea had a team in those finals and they beat Italy! The top scorer in that tournament was the immaculate Portuguese, Eusebio. Finals have traditionally been pretty drab affairs as neither team wants to lose. Last night Argentina took to the pitch and dominated as though determined to win. Could the French have come back without Mbappe? Messi crowned his career and will retire from international football a Club and national hero. Celebrating his 24th birthday tomorrow, Mbappe is unquesionably the hero of the future.

When the World Cup was awared to Qatar back in 2010, few could believe what sort of madness had overtake FIFA. Since then, we have finally had proof about FIFA being the supremely corrupt body we always suspected it was. The World Cup has always been a huge event with matches covering stadia in several cities around the host countries. Tiny Qatar was neither known as a soccer nation not did it have any decent soccer stadia. No probem parrotted FIFA. Qatar had promised to build stadia with special air conditioning systems to counter the horrendous summer heat. As we know, that was never going to work and FIFA did a unique about turn by changing the timing of the tournament to November/December. Then there were Qatar's strict Muslim prohibition against gays, dress for women etc. etc. How much Qatar ended up bribing FIFA officials will probably never be known. We do know that many of those on the bidding committee who voted for Qatar have ben charged with corruption or are in jail. We know, too, that the heads of FIFA had to resign and are also charged with corruption on a large scale. Yet, whatever happened in the past, it does seem to me that holding the World Cup in a new and very small part of the world seems to have been not only effective but hugely effective. Teams and supporters have for the first time not have to fly to different cities between matches. The success of Morocco, despite coming in fourth overall, has been exhilarating, the passion of its army of supporters spreading to others. The last-minute alcohol ban in stadia has been a very big plus with very few arrests. British fans in particular have traditionally seen more than a large amount of loutish and drunken behaviour at all soccer tournaments. At this World Cup it seems their behaviour has been exemplary. That surely is one lesson FIFA must learn for future World Cups. But while the tournament has been a success, FIFA and the Qatar government can and must put some icing on their cake by finally admitting the large number of migrant worker deaths in building the World Cup infrastructure and providing suitable compensation to the familiies. If not, in the fullness of time, it is this disgrace that will forever tarnish the legacy of Qatar 2022.

This could be no more accurate! As I said in another post quite recently, I regard social media as "unsocial media". I have a young Thai friend. He is intelligent, cute, has just graduated from university, speaks reaosnable English and has started his first job. He desperately wants to meet and fall in love with a foreigner. It has nothing (or very little) to do with cash or moving to a foreign country. He just wants the love and companionship of another human being. He happens to be a friend of my partner and we have met up quite often. A few weeks ago he had met a foreigner about whom he was becoming crazy. So the four of us went for dinner one night. This young man hardly spoke to his 'crush' during dinner, spending most of his time texting and staring at his phone. Afterwards, I told him quite firmly that when he was out with a foreigner the mobile phone stayed firmly in his pocket. He also had to learn the basics of starting conversations and making his foreigner friends feel he was at least interested in them - and not only in bed.

I visited Luang Prabang before the bridges were built. It is a glorious town (it seems too small to be a city) and well worth a visit. Just walking around there seemed to be quite a few gay guys when I was there. Sitting by the river late one afternoon, a cute young guy wandered over to my table and said his equally cute young friend fancied me! Sadly I was leaving for Bangkok in 30 minutes.

I'm not a facebook member, but when I try to open that link I get a message about being protected from a malicious site. But the event looks very interesting.

Thanks for spotting that. They're below the flight path and a few miles from the airport. Missed approaches will generally be much closer to the runways.

Along with all the nighclubs which burn to the ground killing dozens because the owners lock emergency exits and pay no attention to fire regulations!

Thats' a very one-sided comment. I have friends who live virtually above the flight path in Stanmore. I assume you think all those folk in that area are perfectly happy having noisy jets roaring just above their apartments overnight. You call them do-gooders! That's rich given that Australia has really stringent noise pollution levels. Staying with my friends I find the first flights coming in at around 6:00 am bad enough. If you consider these pople selfish, how do you expect them to move, given the enormous house prices in Sydney? WHy not move the parties elsewhere? And instead of adding on to existing airports that have been in use for many decades, why not build new airports away from urban centres like Tokyo, Osaka, Singaore, Hong Kong, Taipei, Beijing and a host of other cities?

Great conversation that will turn out to be, I don't think!

i absolutely loathe loud noise and steer clear of such places. If you wear ear plugs, how can you converse with the boys?

Could not agree more. It seems customer are coming much more for the shows which are much cheaper and very amateur versions of the popular professional boy cabaret shows like Tiffany's and Simon.

I agree. In all my years of visiting and then lliving in Bangkok, I have never been influenced by anything a mamasan has told me about tips. It's my decision, and since I never discussed in advance with the boys it was always what I decided. I always gave more than what I later read was the minimum. But then virtually always i had a great time. Sad to say i also know someone who did the same. Even more sadly he lived in Bangkok. He would regularly visit one bar and the boys knew not only that sitting with him would result in just one drink, one 20 baht note (occasionally 2) and no off. Very rarely he would arrange for one boy to visit him at his home on the outskirts of the city when he'd tip the lowest possible amount of around 1,000 baht and not pay for transport. It was hugely embarrassing and several people pointed this out to him. But he never changed.

Great photos! Many thanks @12is12 and @vinapu

They have to be called tips because in Thailand the provision of sexual services at a fee is illegal. A reality of which a few may still not be aware. I see your point - but do not fully agree with the comparisons. At a restaurant the bill for your food and drinks already includes wages for all the staff. Many waiters hope for something extra in the form of a tip but have no guarantee. And clearly no waiter is in a position to negotiate a tip. But most will still be earning a liveable wage. If they find it's not, then they move on to another restaurant or elsewhere. I do not know what basic wage, if any, the boys get from working in the various types of bar. But I'm pretty sure that it does not compare to most other service businesses as it will be far from a liveable amount. So they are not only expected to generate income for the bar from inflated drinks prices and off fees, they have to earn their own "tips" on top. I also have no doubt that most of the boys discuss what tips they get from customers and this leads to a minimum expectation. But like the waiter, they have no guarantee. Whatever a boy may ask for, it's a negotiable amount dependant on quite a number of factors. As you write, it is merely an "expected" amount but to a considerable extent it is dependent on all the various aspects of supply and demand. Same now with the apps. I do agree that the situation was different 30 - 40 years ago though. In those times all the boys westerners came across in the gogo and host bars were Thais from very poor upcountry families. There were no mobile phones and fancy clothes so much of what they "earned" went back to their families. "Tips" were very much dependent on a boy's attractiveness to customers and how well he performed during the off. In my experience "tips" were never discussed in advance and I can recall only one occasion (of many!) when a boy asked for a bit more than offered. My comments are based almost exclusively on Bangkok because I have little experience of offs in Pattaya.

Isn't that the point? What someone tips is their choice. Naturally everyone - be they rich or poor or more likely somewhere in between - has their own priorities, desires and limitations. If my friend A is happy tipping 1,500 and friend B 3,000, that's entirely a matter for them in my view - not me. If both are happy with the outcome, why should we on this Board keep on all but challenging those who tip higher or lower than we might do? I've read posts about this from guys who say that the offs need to earn a living and X amount is too low, just as I have (much more frequently) other posts from guys who write a larger tip distorts the market! But isn't that precisely what it is? A market. A market for services. And as with all offering services, pricing is dependent on the market. I understand that newbies do like to have some information. But so much has been quite regularly posted, finding it by taking a few minutes of time on the Search engine is surely not an unreasonable request! Or could there be a separate thread limited to discussions on tips and offs?