TDS or Trump derangement syndrome updates

[stevenkesslar]

28 minutes ago, Suckrates said:

And it should be clear that the typical Trump voter accepts being lied to and betrayed by him...... 

So I guess we aint in the same "glory hole" on this point hon ?   😏

I think we are talking about two different types of voters.  As you say, you are talking about Trump voters.  And within that, I would distinguish between people who voted for Trump, and people who identify as MAGA (about 3 in 4 Republicans or so).

You are absolutely right that there are Trump voters who simply obey.  @lookin has made a bunch of really thoughtful posts for years about authoritarian followers, citing various sources.  So that is a good concept for the kinds of voters who you are talking about.

They are loyal and true and obedient and cruel.  Just like our good loyal MAGA pup.  Don't forget to give him a treat.  He'll be extra cruel just to spite you, Sis.

Of course, they don't think they are cruel.  They think they are loyal and true and obedient and good.  That was my point about citing these Republicans leaders in Valadao's district.  Of course they are not going to make people sick or hungry!  Of course Donald Trump would never do that!

Riddle me this, Batman.  I have a Trump voting relative who is literally on the board of a food bank.  He is a very smart and compassionate guy, who is very proud of what the food bank he serves on does.  Best guess is that food banks would literally have to double their output to make up for the SNAP cuts.  Which is basically impossible.  So what is the point?  Do good by serving on a food bank board, and then support someone who wipes out all the good you did, and makes hunger a lot worse?

Now, what would happen if Donald Trump personally decided our good and loyal and true pup had to be turned into Trump Steaks to feed hungry Trump voters when Trump takes their Medicaid and food away?  Would the loyal pup suddenly be less obedient?  That's a tough one.  You'll have to ask the dumb dog yourself.  If you can get him to stop barking.

I'm talking about different voters.  We know that Trump lost in 2020 and won in 2024.  We know Valadao lost in 2018 and won in 2020.  We know there are swing voters.  I think it is clear that Trump won a lot of votes in 2024, especially among people who are working class or young or poor, because they were pissed about inflation or rent or gas prices or whatever.  Trump promised not to fuck with them, or their Medicaid.  He promised to lower their prices.  Tillis was right.  They are being betrayed. 

My point is they are not stupid.  The polls say they have already figured it out. 2 in 3 voters don't like this bill.   Independents abhor it.  When they find out more about the cruel details in the bill, I think they may be even more pissed.  But Trump voters, of course, love it.  Especially ones who say they are MAGA.  Aka The Cult.

You're talking about the cultists or authoritarian followers.   I totally agree with you.  I am talking about swing voters or independents.  

[Suckrates]

30 minutes ago, stevenkesslar said:

I think we are talking about two different types of voters.  As you say, you are talking about Trump voters.  And within that, I would distinguish between people who voted for Trump, and people who identify as MAGA (about 3 in 4 Republicans or so).

You are absolutely right that there are Trump voters who simply obey.  @lookin has made a bunch of really thoughtful posts for years about authoritarian followers, citing various sources.  So that is a good concept for the kinds of voters who you are talking about.

I'm talking about different voters.  We know that Trump lost in 2020 and won in 2024.  We know Valadao lost in 2018 and won in 2020.  We know there are swing voters.  I think it is clear that Trump won a lot of votes in 2024, especially among people who are working class or young or poor, because they were pissed about inflation or rent or gas prices or whatever.  Trump promised not to fuck with them, or their Medicaid.  He promised to lower their prices.  Tillis was right.  They are being betrayed. 

My point is they are not stupid.  The polls say they have already figured it out. 2 in 3 voters don't like this bill.   Independents abhor it.  When they find out more about the cruel details in the bill, I think they may be even more pissed.  But Trump voters, of course, love it.  Especially ones who say they are MAGA.  Aka The Cult.

You're talking about the cultists or authoritarian followers.   I totally agree with you.  I am talking about swing voters or independents.  

I am now gonna be a real CUNT here.....   Your points well taken, but if swings and indys ARE NOT STUPID they would NOT have voted for Trump over Harris....  They has already experienced years of Trump,  knew who and what he was.....A LIAR and con man, and a man who tried to overthrow a free and fair election TO STAY IN POWER.  they knew the agenda he was pursuing.....  they knew everything they needed to know NOT TO VOTE for him again.....     so what do they do ?    THEY VOTE FOR HIM...   That act shows me they are no different or better than the CULT !    Excuses ARE just excuses, and there were no excuses to be made to vote for Trump in 2024 after a basically failed Presidency in 2016......  

So dear,  for me,  we are still NOT in the same "glory hole"......      Your well taken points are in the camp of "well it only makes sense that they would not......."      but we have already seen that "they would" and DID in 2024.    Unless their own lives change significantly, you can bet they would vote for him AGAIM if given the chance..... But lets hope they WONT get the chance !     CAPISCE ?????

[Stable Genius]

[stevenkesslar]

4 hours ago, Suckrates said:

 CAPISCE ?????

Of course, Sis.

You're so sexy when you get passionate.  It is one of the endless things I love about you.

[Suckrates]

1 hour ago, stevenkesslar said:

Of course, Sis.

You're so sexy when you get passionate.  It is one of the endless things I love about you.

[Pete1111]

17 hours ago, Stable Genius said:

Not to mention how Republican state legislatures have been emptying Treasury reserves across the Country.

The dumb voters may never understand what hit them.  Will they ever take ownership and stop blaming the Dems?

Voters love their Republicans like Russians love their Putin.

 

 

[stevenkesslar]

1 hour ago, Pete1111 said:

The dumb voters may never understand what hit them.

I think the essential problem is that us dumb voters like getting money.   What's that about, anyway?

Dick Cheney said back in the last century that Reagan proved deficits don't matter - politically.  He ran them up and he won in a landslide and got his heir Bush 41 elected.  His heir said "no new taxes" and lost.  Because he raised taxes and it pissed people off.

Clinton proved that in a way, too.  He created a surplus and his heir apparent, Gore, lost.  W. then proceeded to run up annual deficits again.  Trump seems to be against most of what W. did, I guess.   Like starting wars with four letter countries that start with IRA... 🤔  Or running up deficits.   Trump would never do that, of course.

Final example:  Labor won in the UK in a landslide.  Then they did what they must have thought was fiscally responsible, and cut people's benefits.  Then they got crushed in the recent elections.  And everyone said it was about the benefits, stupid.

Stanley Druckenmiller identifies as a super rich guy, and an old school low tax low government Republican.  He said something a few years back that I think was prescient.  He said maybe Republicans can hold off taxing the rich, like him, more for a few more election cycles.  So far, he nailed it.  But eventually when it comes down to cutting Medicare or Social Security or something like that, Druckenmiller knows the pitchforks are aimed right at his pocketbook.  

In that sense, however it goes, Mamdani may be the handwriting on the wall.  People don't want their Medicaid cut or their food taken away to help the noble rich.  Either that, or Musk trains Grok to have us all believing that Hitler was good, and guys like Musk and Trump will do what's best for us.    If you dissent, you are deported.  That's the challenge us dumb voters face.

 

[Stable Genius]

[lookin]

On 7/11/2025 at 1:21 PM, stevenkesslar said:

You are absolutely right that there are Trump voters who simply obey.  @lookin has made a bunch of really thoughtful posts for years about authoritarian followers, citing various sources.  So that is a good concept for the kinds of voters who you are talking about.

Thanks for remembering that, @stevenkesslar.  I find in my off-board life, as well as this on-board life, that it's really difficult for most of my friends to understand what makes the authoritarian follower tick.  If you're not one of them, it's tempting to get mad at them, call them stupid and ascribe a host of negative qualities to them.  This contributor to Psychology Today made a list of thirty qualities guaranteed to make non-authoritarian-followers give them a wide berth.  I also get the willies when I'm around an authoritarian follower.

But I'm also aware that I'm not going to change them.  I have a friend who goes on endlessly about his family members who were Bolsonaro supporters and are now Trump fans, and he spends hours trying to convince them how wrong they are.  I got hoarse telling him he's wasting his time and I've now concluded that I'm wasting my time telling him he's wasting his time.

For me the goal is not to rail against authoritarian followers, as tempting as that is, but to figure out how to reduce their negative political impact.  If I believe, which I do, that their identity revolves around following a leader, then one solution would be to find them a better leader than Donald Trump.  Some religions have been successful in attracting authoritarian followers, sometimes promoting their fear of the other and dislike of ambiguity.  And, of course, the military is a natural fit for authoritarian followers.  The Republican party under Donald Trump has made a specialty of bringing them into the tent, but the Democratic party has not.  And the Democrats have lost elections as a result.

And that's where I get stuck.  I don't want to belong to a political party that's based on a fear of the 'other', that doesn't tolerate opposing thoughts, and that follows a leader rather than a set of values.  Personally, I'm a big fan of Bernie Sanders but he's not a Democrat, he doesn't promote fear of the other, he allows for different points of view and - unfortunately - he's unelectable.  Or so they say.

So here are some questions I'm asking these days.  Is it possible to win a national election without appealing to authoritarian followers?  Can a contemporary political party succeed without an authoritarian leader?  Is there a stronger rallying point than fear of the other?  Can differences of opinion become a strength rather than a weakness?

Based on what I see in many other countries today, and what I've seen in this country in the past, the answers are clearly "yes".  But, after I'm all done defining the problem, how do I go about solving it?  What do others think?  Can the Democratic party peel away some authoritarian follower voters while staying true to its values?

[unicorn]

Wow. Trump is now threatening to revoke Rosie O'Donnell's citizenship (she's US-born), as if he had that authority...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-rosie-odonnell-u-s-citizenship-revoke-threat/

"President Trump says he is considering "taking away" the U.S. citizenship of a longtime rival, actress and comedian Rosie O'Donnell, despite a decades-old Supreme Court ruling that expressly prohibits such an action by the government. "Because of the fact that Rosie O'Donnell is not in the best interests of our Great Country, I am giving serious consideration to taking away her Citizenship," Mr. Trump wrote in a social media post on Saturday...". 

[stevenkesslar]

3 hours ago, lookin said:

 But, after I'm all done defining the problem, how do I go about solving it?  What do others think?  Can the Democratic party peel away some authoritarian follower voters while staying true to its values?

 

Well, I have one somewhat subtle three word answer:  Que sera sera.

 

 

 

Que sera sera does roll off the lips better than "working class economic populism", doesn't it?  😉

I think we had a version of this discussion years ago on Bill's website.  I talked about left-wing economic populism.  I got the sense you were not enthralled, perhaps incorrectly.  As you note, it does involve embracing authoritarian followers, and many of their sensibilities.  But everything that has played out suggests economic populism is where the dial is at, for now.  Canada a bit less so, since they just elected an Establishment globalist type.  I guess there is no explaining what Canadians do, is there?  😝

Part of my point with que sera sera is that it does have to just play out.  We already know these things can potentially end badly.  Because it did, here, in 2020.  Trump got his ass kicked. 

But not as much as he could have, or should have.  And some of that was because of working class sensibilities around things like Defund The Police.  And whether or not America is this awful racist place.  And even (ugh!) "Latinx". 

If I recall correctly I did advocate "left-wing" economic populism.  So it was partly my bad.  Just like you keep talking about authoritarian followers, Ruy Teixeira keeps reminding us that "working class voter" generally does not mean left-wing.  To oversimply, they are mostly culturally moderate.  Polls show that when it comes to raising taxes on the rich, the working class are for it.  When it comes to culture war, the working class thinks Trump is a bit closer to their values than Democrats like Harris.  Sanders, as you noted, ran great campaigns twice and failed.  America revolted when it looked like Bernie might win in 2020 and lined up behind Working Class Joe instead.

So we'll see how it plays out.  Trump says, correctly, he won thanks to high prices and the border.  Had there been no COVIDflation, and had Old Joe gotten out of the way and let Harris or some other Democrat win a primary and run, I don't think Trump would have gotten 49.8 % of the vote. 

But what do I know?  Some asshole named Steven Kesslar just posted something about how 78% of Americans are unpatriotic because they want to give undocumented immigrants a path to citizenship.  So when you come down to it only 1 in 5 Americans or so like this Kesslar prick embrace far-right views.  And even lots of Republicans don't like Trump's tariffs policies because they threaten to raise prices eventually.  Did I mention how Independents deplore Trump's new "victory" and how it will screw Trump voters on Medicaid?  And make working class people in Kentucky hungry?

So, as my Sister In Cock says, they voted for this shit.  Que sera sera.  Let them live with it.  Seems like the more they live with it, the less they like it.

As you and I know, this topic is very complex.  But the basic formula is what AMLO did in Mexico.  First, the poor and the working class.  How do we make life better for them?  Second, embrace their sensibilities, too.  A lot of college-educated elites in Mexico don't like AMLO for embracing Hecho En Mexico fossil fuels and the like.  And the globalist elite types decry AMLO's authoritarian tendencies.  

My view is that right now it would help Democrats to embrace a very simple view.  The working class is smart.  And college graduates suck.  Especially if they are White.  Did I mention I am a White college-educated liberal?  But Teixeira is right.  As Democrats become less working class and more attuned to the priorities of college-educated liberals, they have not become more popular.  This happened under Obama.  In 2008 Democrats could win Iowa, Montana, and Missouri.  Now we can mostly win places where there are more college students than cows.  Do the math.

Again, it's complicated.  But one of my favorite phrases in politics right now is what Ruben Gallego said.  Every Mexican American man wants a big ass truck, and cheap gas to fill it with.  Hell, in addition to making cheap gas right here in the gold ole USA maybe we could even import it from Mexico. 

90 % of Mexicans view Trump's America unfavorably.  That is more than any other nation in the world.  Surely, Mexico has their fair share of authoritarian followers.  To your excellent point, I think it is because they had a somewhat authoritarian leader in AMLO who focused on their priorities.  Pensions for seniors.  He literally put money and food in the hands of the poor.  He helped working class people who aspire to work hard so they can buy a home and a big ass truck.  Is Trump doing these things?

The one thing that is the opposite of "que sera sera" is what AMLO and Trump had to do to win power.  AMLO fought like hell for decades and lost several times along the way.  But when he won, he had a vision and the talent to make that vision work.  Trump has neither.  Other than to have a big ego and help rich people and autocrats like himself.  AMLO handed his successor a landslide victory.  And she is a female environmentalist Jew, for Christ's sake.  JD Vance is a hillbilly.  But the way this is going, he ain't gonna win in 2028 if he runs.  Not in a landslide, and not at all.

But importing what worked in Mexico will help.  I think Harris did a great job under the circumstances.  She will likely run to be my Guv, and I will happily vote for her.  But she was no AMLO.  She sounded like AMLO during one debate she prepared well for, when she kicked Trump's ass.  We need someone who can exude the working class passion AMLO did, and have the plan he can talk about without needing to prepare.

 The huge question to me is can Democrats embrace someone like AMLO.  If we even have one here.  If not, maybe we can import one from Mexico.  😉

If it's meant to be, it will happen.  Que sera sera.

 

[Goober]

30 minutes ago, unicorn said:

Wow. Trump is now threatening to revoke Rosie O'Donnell's citizenship (she's US-born), as if he had that authority...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-rosie-odonnell-u-s-citizenship-revoke-threat/

"President Trump says he is considering "taking away" the U.S. citizenship of a longtime rival, actress and comedian Rosie O'Donnell, despite a decades-old Supreme Court ruling that expressly prohibits such an action by the government. "Because of the fact that Rosie O'Donnell is not in the best interests of our Great Country, I am giving serious consideration to taking away her Citizenship," Mr. Trump wrote in a social media post on Saturday...". 

MAGAts are too stupid to know that donOLD doesn't have the authority to revoke Rosie's citizenship. donOLD's post was just a shiny object meant to distract his MAGAts that have their panties in a twist over donOLD's administration's incompetent handling of the Epstein case.

[Suckrates]

12 hours ago, Goober said:

MAGAts are too stupid to know that donOLD doesn't have the authority to revoke Rosie's citizenship. donOLD's post was just a shiny object meant to distract his MAGAts that have their panties in a twist over donOLD's administration's incompetent handling of the Epstein case.

For ALL the people STILL on the fence about the dangers of Trump,  there needs to be A LOT more TDS,  and the realization that Trump is CREATING and taking ALL the powers he needs to do anything he wants,  and there aint noone around to STOP him.......In fact, he has enablers and for the most part willing participants that pretend to idolize him that will give him, or accomplish for him any CRAZY shit he proposes,  no matter how lawless or ILLEGAL......Sure he creates distractions solely so he can create and DIRECT the media narrative, and thats why he jumps so fast from one thing to another.....  When the heat gets too hot in the media "kitchen"  he just "spins a new yarn" to take your attention away from the old and to the New.....In this way he has always been masterful,  probably the ONLY thing he a master of ?   But its dangerous and destructive,  and he IS making great progress on his Project 2025 agenda goals......By the end of his "supposed" 4 year term,  America will be unrecognizable, and no longer a Democracy.  Just look at the damage to Democracy in almost 8 months .....

So flipant individuals may call it TDS, and chuckle at the ridiculousness of it, but simply look at Americas reality and then determine if you need to TAKE IT MORE SERIOUSLY ?

Trumps own DERANGEMENT is growing with every WIN he has,  What happens when he SNAPS ?   

[Goober]

2 hours ago, Suckrates said:

So flipant individuals may call it TDS...

Notice that those who bring up TDS are low IQ MAGAts who have nothing to counter with, so they try to distract.