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JKane

Curious what happened to the Russian invasion thread?

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5 hours ago, reader said:

And do you recall what happened about three weeks later?

Japan surrendered to the allies, thus avoiding an invasion of its homeland, savings hundreds of thousands on both sides.

Justifying the nuclear attacks to Japan is shameful and dangerous. The USA has zero moral authority to preach about use of nuclear weapons, as they are the only nation that ever committed such atrocity. If those attacks were justifiable, any attack can also be. I hope none of the current national leaders is planning to save lives by massacring millions of foreign innocent civilians. According to you, it would be a highly commendable decision. 

 

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When I was very young I remember the Cuba missile crisis and how certain we were that nuclear war would start in a day or two tops. I remember all the hundreds of tanks on railroard cars headed past our house to Florida. I remember talking my father into helping me bury a jar of personal items in the back yard as a time capsule for future people long after the nuclear war to find. We were that certain. 

Over all these many years I've become complacent about nuclear war like everyone else. It could never happen ! (Mutually-assured destruction, etc).

For the first time since I was that young boy I have in back of my mind sitting here in the middle of DC that any minute I could be vaporized without much warning.

People have finally gotten that crazy again. 

 

distances-of-major-cites-from-cuba.jpg

 

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Morgan Stanley is predicting 80% probability Russia has a “Venezuelan” type international debt default in April.  Russia has chosen to be a pariah state and guaranteed their own financial meltdown.  A big overreach by a Putin has backfired miserably.

I’m not buying the Russian nuclear threat to US/NATO either.  Russia has a layered command structure to launch & the down-the-line people just won’t go there first because they know it’s their own certain destruction. Think about that - any Russian launching nukes against US/NATO will know their own family will die within minutes.  And that’s assuming the Russian nukes are the one thing in their military command that actually functions. Big assumption.

The Western military folks seem to agree that a low-yield tactical nuke is the only real threat as shock theatre for the West - and that’s a far off scenario.  Just the fact that Putin is threatening nukes tells you how desperate he is.  

Once the financial meltdown is complete, Putin’s days are numbered.  People will be in the streets demanding change and they can’t put everyone in prison.  One thing Russia does very well is revolution.
 

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i wish people would quit reassuring everyone that the guy deep down in a bunker at the Kremlin with his finger on the hypersonic nuclear weapon button is just desperate and crazy. That is  the furthest thing from reassuring.

That's my argument for not cornering and making enemies desperate anyway. Not that I think Putin is or JFK was. Disrepected and overcompensating maybe. 

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12 hours ago, reader said:

And do you recall what happened about three weeks later?

Japan surrendered to the allies, thus avoiding an invasion of its homeland, savings hundreds of thousands on both sides.

And while on the topic, less not forget the Soviet's role in the episode. Prior to the nuclear bombings, Japan's leaders were privately making entreaties to the publicly neutral Soviet Union to mediate peace on terms more favorable to the Japanese. While maintaining a sufficient level of diplomatic engagement with the Japanese to give them the impression they might be willing to mediate, the Soviets were covertly preparing to attack Japanese forces in Manchuria and Korea. So Uncle Joe passed on an opportunity to avoid the Japanese catastrophe in order to gain some more of the spoils of war.

Whatever. US is only country in World what barbarically dropped nuclear bombs on heads of innocent civilians. Nuclear. Bomb. Point.

And never said "we are sorry". Germans did it after WWII. US never did.

And by your logic Russia should immediately drop bomb to Kyev? For to "save hundreds of thousands on both sides"? 

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5 hours ago, Moses said:

US is only country in World what barbarically dropped nuclear bombs on heads of innocent civilians.

Russia and Germany were both pursuing nuclear weapons at the very same moment and would have used them had they perfected it first. Eighty-seven years after the fact I view it as a catastrophe and cruel. But at the time all of East Asia, much of Europe and northern Africa had suffered mightily at the hands of the Axis powers, and perhaps none more so than Russia. And you didn't hear any one of them complaining when the war abruptly ended with the signing of the articles of surrender in Tokyo Bay.

Now eight other nations have since acquired them. And you don't seem to think it's likewise barbaric that your man Putin is now threatening to use them?

Nor do you speak out against his dropping conventional weapons on innocent civilians in Ukraine. You remain fixated on the present and the destruction of those with whom you share a common language.  That, too, is a catastrophe and particularly cruel.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, reader said:

Russia and Germany were both pursuing nuclear weapons at the very same moment and would have used them had they perfected it first.

History has no subjunctive mood. The US is the only country in the world in human history to have dropped nuclear bombs on innocent civilians. 

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8 hours ago, vinapu said:

there's no such thing like glorious war, fact obviously lost on militarists and their appologetists

Reminded of the ancient axiom: "all glory is fleeting".

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Let me be radical and say I agree Russia should not drop a nuclear bomb on Kiev to shorten the war and neither should any country drop one "to save lives". That is a contradiction. 

I drive little and have a Prius but yesterday I had to go to northeast DC to a body shop and I noticed gas at two stations out there was $4.58/gallon. I last got gas two weeks ago and it was $3.50. Today they say the US is stopping Russian oil so by the time summer driving starts gas could double. Does the government really think $9 gas is not going to cause a revolt? (few of them or other rich have any idea what gas costs). Most Americans who are lower middle class have to drive everywhere from neccessity. That's a high price for Zelinsky not having to recognize Donbas's independence. 

Remember, Americans started a revolution over high tea prices. 

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59 minutes ago, tassojunior said:

Most Americans who are lower middle class have to drive everywhere from neccessity.

Necessity is a matter of perspective.   Man has spent thousands of years not driving anywhere.  

It's only in the last 60 or 70 years that driving has become common place in developed countries. 

The US in particular has encouraged wasteful use of fuel, with low taxes .   At one point, I believe the tax system even excluded those hideous SUVs from the CAFE regulations ?   

Now, however low the taxes are on fuel in places like the US, eventually price rises will punish those who drive highly inefficient vehicles.    Oil is becoming more expensive to extract and there is the CO2 aspect as well.

To your credit, you drive a Prius and drive little, but eventually other US motorists will need to adjust their behaviour.

 

I guess it's not just the US either.    

Thanks to a daft tax system, Thailand is full of big heavy brick shaped pick ups and the government has mistakenly been trying to keep diesel prices down.    They should have been encouraging people to drive more efficient vehicles.

 

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12 hours ago, reader said:

Russia and Germany were both pursuing nuclear weapons at the very same moment and would have used them had they perfected it first.

We will never know that, because the US was the first AND ONLY nation in EIGHTY SEVEN YEARS to commit such atrocity. Of course, it helps you to think they would have done it, but it is just a conjecture.

12 hours ago, reader said:

Eighty-seven years after the fact I view it as a catastrophe and cruel. But at the time all of East Asia, much of Europe and northern Africa had suffered mightily at the hands of the Axis powers, and perhaps none more so than Russia. And you didn't hear any one of them complaining when the war abruptly ended with the signing of the articles of surrender in Tokyo Bay.

There were plenty of contemporaries astonished at the atrocity. Whether or not they were a few or many, a majority or a minority, is subject of debate. But if you "didn't hear any of them complaining", you were not listening. Of course no one would complain about the ending of a war, but the monstrosity committed by the USA had plenty of critics back then.

I agree with the rest of your post. Putin is a piece of shit and his attack on Ukraine is absolutely repudiable. I support the UN declarations, and any other decisions coming from the UN General Assembly to stop Russia's expansionism and this abusive, inhumane war. But I have a hard time feeling any empathy for US leadership and their imperialist game in Eastern Europe. 

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1 hour ago, Latbear4blk said:

But I have a hard time feeling any empathy for US leadership and their imperialist game in Eastern Europe. 

Imperialist games???

Could you please elaborate.

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5 minutes ago, Latbear4blk said:

Bringing to the OTAN nations that used to be soviet republics. 

Do you mean that once in Soviet sphere, nation is condemned to eternity in being there? 

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3 hours ago, reader said:

Imperialist games???

Could you please elaborate.

When the Clintons helped Putin win the election against the communists in Russia and he finished dismantling the USSR, Russia expected to be part of of the EU and NATO and a western democracy. Instead Russia was spat on by the west and NATO was moved onto it's border with missiles pointed at Russia. Not being able to shake the Cold War goal of destroying Russia out of our minds was the dumbest mistake the US has ever made. 

Now China is the strongest country in the world and we've lost any hope of the US-Europe/Russia being an alliance to equal China because of our Cold War obsession to defeat Russia.  

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8 hours ago, vinapu said:

Do you mean that once in Soviet sphere, nation is condemned to eternity in being there? 

No. I mean that the USA think they are entitled to own the world. When they step in territory where there is another imperialist nation, we have clashes like this one.

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For hundreds of years, most nations have gone around annexing territory during their period as a major military power.

The US is a commendable exception and as far as I know, hasn't annexed any large territories by force for over a century. 

There have been a few badly considered interventions, but in most of the world, they are supporting democracy.

 

Meanwhile, countries like Russia and China go around annexing territory and supporting the worst kind of dictatorships (North Korea, Myanmar, Syria, Belarus etc).

Since the democratic parts of Europe have become too stupid and complacent to spend enough on defence, we're rather fortunate to have had a power like the US around.     Just don't count on this lasting indefinitely.  

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15 minutes ago, z909 said:

Meanwhile, countries like Russia and China ........supporting the worst kind of dictatorships (North Korea, Myanmar, Syria, Belarus etc).

 

you are correct but we shouldn't wax too lyrical as some of US friends were no lesser SOB's , Trujillo, Somoza not to mention man of the Year of Time magazine Saddam Hussein.

Power of China was built mainly on greed of Western corporations and us, Western consumers.

All this doesn't change fact that Russia is naked aggressor now, it's not that Ukraine was lobbying rocket across the border from time to time and they got impatient, it's just premeditated brutal move trying to show who is the boss .     

When all that will be over there's chance Putin and his war will be remembered in Ukraine as nation building moments

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7 hours ago, tassojunior said:

Not being able to shake the Cold War goal of destroying Russia out of our minds was the dumbest mistake the US has ever made.

Actually, the idea is to curb Russia's imperialistic tendencies. Many in Europe don't think that's such a bad idea.

7 hours ago, tassojunior said:

Now China is the strongest country in the world and we've lost any hope of the US-Europe/Russia being an alliance to equal China because of our Cold War obsession to defeat Russia.  

That's a lot of conjecture in one mouthful. Nevertheless, if it wasn't for the navies of the US, UK, Australia and a few others, the entire South China Sea (to wit: the eleven-dash line) would be governed by China's imperialistic tendencies and blocked to free navigation.

2 hours ago, Latbear4blk said:

No. I mean that the USA think they are entitled to own the world. When they step in territory where there is another imperialist nation, we have clashes like this one.

Given that there are only three superpowers, and two of them are Russia and China, the expectation for the third defaults to the US. Not everyone may always agree with its actions,  but most are damn glad that it has skin in the game.

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Labeling Russia a “superpower” is a not accurate, unless solely based on nukes.  Russian economy pre-sanctions was about the size of New York State.  Not remotely close to US or China.  They don’t produce anything for export except oil & gas - nothing manufactured for export. It’s a klepto-state designed to protect the criminals at the top of the food chain.

Post-sanctions & impending economic collapse - Russia will be more insignificant than ever.  Free press is dead & it’s now a police state with a captive population.  All the progress over last 25 years is gone.

The main problem with Russian society and leadership is they are focused on the past & restoration of Greater Russia, creating an extended sphere of influence adjacent to the Russian borders regardless of economic consequences.  In contrast, China looks to the future, engaging globally with economic development.  China is a legitimate superpower, Russia is not.

The US, as usual is part of the current problem - had the US fully engaged w Russia post Soviet collapse and assisted in democratic reforms, there would most likely be no Putin now.  As Putin consolidated his authoritarian rule, the US was in meltdown from 9/11 and pursuing forever wars in the Middle East.  Huge missed opportunity to integrate democratic Russia and avoid more European war. Thank you George W.

Btw - the US has annexed territories against the wishes of the local populace - we staged a coup in Hawaii to depose the monarchy in 1893 & made it a state in 1959.  Other territories won during wars & retained have no federal voting rights.  Not exactly democratic.

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47 minutes ago, Slvkguy said:

made it a state in 1959

They chose statehood(just saying) 😉

Out of a total population of 600,000 in the islands and 155,000 registered voters, 140,000 votes were cast, the highest turnout ever in Hawaii. The vote showed approval rates of at least 93% by voters on all major islands. Of the approximately 140,000 votes cast, fewer than 8,000 rejected the Admission Act of 1959.

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