Gaybutton

Am I understanding you correctly? Are you under the impression that you get any money back on the retirement visa after 5 years? I'd love for that to be true, but you don't get anything back. You just pay them their 1900 baht fee every year. You also get nothing back on the Elite visa.

Have it your way, gents. I haven't seen anyone disputing the facts Barry presents - only the way he presents them. If you want to believe you'll be able to travel to Thailand any time soon, fine with me. I hope you're right. Some also seem to think expats living here are gloating over the fact the we're here and you're not. That is not true. We all want the gay venues to reopen, survive, and eventually become what they once were. There is no way that can happen without gay farang tourists - lots of them - coming here to support them. There simply are not enough gay expats to do it and it really is not much fun, at least for me, to go to gay venues and find hardly anyone there. So yes - I would be delighted if every one of you could return to Thailand tomorrow. It is not just Barry Kenyon presenting facts. You might be interested in this article too: https://thepattayanews.com/2020/08/13/fact-check-is-thailand-closed-to-all-foreign-tourists-until-2021/

None of us expats in Thailand - at least none that I know - take delight in this situation. I don't know why you or anyone else thinks we do. If you truly believe that Barry is wrong, exaggerating, or simply doesn't know what he's talking about, I'd like to know what makes you think so or makes you think anything is going to happen or is true other than what Barry is saying. I'd also like to know what you think is going to happen and on what basis you think so. If you have any information that contradicts what Barry is saying, I'd like to know what it is and what the source of it is. I wouldn't be bantering this back and forth, but I don't like getting people's hopes up only to see them shattered when everything indicates it is going to be much longer than many, including me, thought before tourism opens again. I'm sorry to see you putting down Barry. Frankly, I never thought you were that type.

Foreigners flying into Thailand during the virus pandemic: the common myths By Barry Kenyon August 13, 2020 With the general ban on foreign tourism to Thailand, the internet is full of fake news and conspiracy theories sometimes designed to milk the cash of the unwary. Here are some circulating in UK, mainland Europe and US. If you can buy an airticket you can fly into Thailand Not so. The possession of an airticket does not guarantee you can even board a plane, yet alone actually get past immigration here. Each and every foreigner wanting to come must seek the approval of their local Thai embassy which has the power to issue an all-important certificate of entry without which you are doomed. If you visit the website of your local Thai diplomatic post you will see the documentary hill to be climbed. There are no scheduled flights into Bangkok, but only repatriation journeys for Thai citizens and approved foreigners. You can fly to a third country and cross into Thailand by a land border Enterprising suggestion, but no way. Even assuming you can fly to a country not too far from Thailand, all border crossings into the country are closed except to goods traffic and – at some posts – documented labourers from Laos, Cambodia and Mynamar. Unless you can prove you have permission to mix the concrete at the construction of a Thai condo or are legally casting the nets on a Thai fishing boat, forget that one. Swimming across a river in the middle of the night also not recommended, particularly if carrying a suitcase. I own a condominium in Pattaya and usually live there. Therefore, I am a resident In your eyes for sure, but not in Thai law. Ownership of property such as a condominium – and don’t forget foreigners don’t own land here – does not in itself bestow residency rights. In the Thai language “residency” in effect means “permanent residency” as an expression. Permanent residency is a long process in Thailand and requires you to have a recent history of working legally and successfully, to be able to communicate in Thai and likely to have proved your worth to the Thai economy or to Thai culture. You can always tell a permanent resident – his or her passport does not have an immigration stamp indicating an end date by which the holder must leave the country or seek an extension. I’m an Elite card holder so I have precedence over the others It is true that the Thai government did include this category of foreigner to be able to apply to their local Thai embassy to return or to visit. Essentially, it is a long-term visa of between 5 and 20 years in exchange for a non-returnable cash fee of between 500,000 baht and in excess of one million. However, the wheels of Thai bureaucracy turn slowly and, to date, Thai embassies don’t seem to have caught up. The website of the Thai embassy in London, to date, does not list Elite card holders as eligible for the certificate of entry. So everyone is waiting for clarification on this one. To return, you need comprehensive medical insurance worth at least US$100,000 which is impossible to obtain in Thailand Wrong on this one too. There are several Thai insurance companies offering insurance which fits the entry requirements. These can be applied for online. The fees are on a sliding scale according to age. However, if you are over 75 years, you may indeed find it impossible to be covered. One or two US-based insurance companies offer medical benefits up to age 120 (with free annual premiums once you are a centenarian) but whether such a policy would satisfy the officials at a Thai embassy is up to them. Not likely. What is true is that advanced age foreigners are currently banned from entry to Thailand whatever their status or reasons. That’s tough. https://www.pattayamail.com/news/foreigners-flying-into-thailand-during-the-virus-pandemic-the-common-myths-310969

For the time being the only way I know of for entering Thailand would be to get onboard the Star Ship Enterprise and beam down. Even buying the Elite card does not guarantee being permitted to enter Thailand. Suppose you somehow get permission to enter Thailand. How do you get there? Are any passenger-carrying airlines currently flying to Thailand? If there are any, I don't know them. And from your present location it is probably a long walk to Thailand . . .

I give up. You're right. The polls are rigged or never really took place at all. I'm lying about the people I talk with. Barry Kenyon's posts hold no more water or validity than anyone else's. Ok, that's it from me on this topic. I can't say any more than I've already said, so you gents might as well continue convincing yourselves that Thailand is going to open up to tourism within the next few months. If that happens, I will be happy to return to this topic and eat my words.

Actually, I personally don't need polls to tell me what Thais are thinking. I live here and talk with a great many Thais and often ask what they think about letting foreign tourists start coming back. So far everyone I've talked to are either opposed to it or it's not something they care about about. But I have not spoken with even one who was in favor of it. Of course, maybe I'm just making that up . . . Those of you who wish to delude yourselves into thinking farang tourists are going to be allowed back into Thailand any time soon, fine with me. Go ahead. I live here and have access, any time I want, to everything some farang can currently only dream about. I have nothing to gain by bursting dream bubbles. I'm only trying to make sure people understand the reality of the situation. If that's bad, so be it. __________________________________________________ Foreign tourists and retirees excluded from latest approval list to come to Thailand By Barry Kenyon August 4, 2020 This week the powerful Centre for Covid-19 Situation Administration (CCSU) has updated the groups of foreigners able to apply to board a plane to Thailand. Mostly they are categories who have business or work-related documentation or are thought to be affluent, such as those holding a Thailand Elite privilege card. There are a few eligible groups which can be broadly described as humanitarian gestures, including foreigners with Thai spouses and/or family financial responsibilities and those classed as “residents”, a much misunderstood term which refers exclusively to those who have no end date in their passport when they must leave the country or renew. A slightly odd grouping refers to medical tourists, usually thought to be magnificent contributors to the Thai treasury. However, the websites of Thai embassies abroad (including the UK) are stating that, to be eligible, you must have a letter from a hospital in your home country stating that you have a life-threatening disease that cannot be treated there. Very odd rule when you think about it. All these groups can board a plane only when their Thai embassy issues a certificate of entry which requires voluminous paperwork, expensive insurance and 14 days quarantine on arrival at your own expense. The Thai foreign affairs ministry is also stressing that entry approvals will be handled on a case by case basis. Almost all the permitted groups will require a non-immigrant visa. Meanwhile, Thai border posts remain closed for most human traffic, although labourers from neighboring countries who have registered online are trickling back to jobs in the construction, fishing and retail industries. New arrivals are subject to virus testing and quarantine facilities. Legal workers from Myanmar, Cambodia and Laos are governed by the multi-governmental Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), although non-registered or illegal workers are by no means unknown. In other words, foreigners who want to vacation in Thailand are excluded from the eligible groupings and likely to remain so as the government aims for continued zero community infections. All talk of travel bubbles, for example, appears to have been dropped as second-wave infections cause panic in countries such as Vietnam, China and Australia which were being considered as partner just weeks ago. Thai embassies abroad specifically state that they will not issue visas or certificates of entry for tourism or retirement. There has been substantial publicity about the plight of mainly European expats with one year retirement visas or extensions of stay who are marooned abroad but want to return to Thailand. We now know for sure that retirees are considered as tourists in this context, unless perhaps they can separately prove a live marriage to a Thai national. Retirees sometimes believe they are Thai residents because they have bought property or believe the Land of Smiles is their home. On the other hand, retirees are seen by the authorities as one-year-at-a-time tourists. Although they are formally required to show an income or have a Thai bank balance of at least 800,000 baht to qualify, the regulation is sometimes circumvented by third party intervention by generous friends or agents. The reality is that 90 percent of the foreigners who visited Thailand in 2019 would be banned by the CCSU regulations now in force. Whilst the scenario can change at short notice – a vaccine appears or the virus goes into remission worldwide or government policy changes – it’s demonstrably untrue that Thailand is slowly getting back to normal. And you can’t predict the future because, alas, it hasn’t happened yet. https://www.pattayamail.com/featured/foreign-tourists-and-retirees-excluded-from-latest-approval-list-to-come-to-thailand-309946

Do you truly believe that is what has been going on? Do you have any evidence whatsoever to support the idea that the Thai pollsters influenced or attempted to influence anything? By that logic, why not simply eliminate the middleman and post poll results without actually having polled anyone? Just make up results. Who's gonna know . . . ?

So far Thai public opinion is opposed to foreign tourism reopening. While many seem to think the loss of tourist money is having much of an impact on Thai politics or the majority opinion of the Thai people, so far the reality is the opposite is true. I'm sorry to come across as so negative, but based on the evidence the idea that tourism might reopen, with Thailand welcoming tourists with open arms, is only wishful thinking. Nobody will be happier than I if I turn out to be wrong, but I base my opinion on what I see, not on what I hope.

That's right. And I posted mine. Is that a problem?

I don't think it matters what this tourism chief says. He is not in a position to make those decisions. I hope nobody minds, but I'm posting a copy of a post I placed on my board this morning: ______________________________________________________________________________________ After reading Barry's article below, if anyone outside of Thailand still thinks you're going to get to return to Thailand any time soon, or even within reasonably foreseeable future, let me know. I'm curious as to what makes you think so. By the way, those of you who think Thailand will relent and start opening tourism again because of economics, I don't know, but I still have seen nothing to indicate Thailand is even going to take that into consideration. Many are posting on all kinds of boards with their ideas and opinions as to what Thailand should do, might be forced to do, or how attention should also be focused on other major causes of death and chaos. However, I don't recall any Thai powers-that-be asking for farang advice. The only thing that counts is what Thailand is gonna do and when they're going to do it, regardless whether their decisions make sense to us. In short, don't start packing your bags for a holiday in Thailand just yet . . . ________________________________________________________________________ Elite card is not a free pass to return to Thailand By Barry Kenyon August 3, 2020 Following press reports in UK that the long-stay visa known as Elite is an automatic permission to return to Thailand, Thai embassies abroad are stressing that all foreigners must follow the proper procedures. There have been several instances of Elite card holders purchasing an air ticket to Bangkok online only to be refused boarding at the airport. The Elite is a 5-20 year visa offered in exchange for a non-returnable, initial cash payment of between 500,000 and 2,000,000 baht according to which option is chosen. Last month, the Thai government agreed to allow Elite holders to be included in the list of foreigners who are eligible to request entry permission from the Thai embassy in the country of intended departure. The other privileged groups are permanent residents, who hold a police red book, medical tourists seeking substantial surgery, work permit holders and sponsored business people, registered students and those with Thai wives or dependents to support. All these potential groups, plus Elite holders, must submit copious documentation to the appropriate Thai embassy including proof of medical insurance worth at least US$100,000 and proof of virus-free status. Another requirement is that all non-Thais pay for 14-days quarantine at a state-approved hotel on arrival. The Thai foreign affairs ministry stresses that all applications are handled on a case by case basis. Nobody can travel without a certificate of entry issued by the embassy after consultation with Bangkok authorities. General tourists and retirees are not currently included in the list of categories permitted to return, according to the website of the Thai embassy in UK. Thailand has been coronavirus-free of community transmission for several months, but there are regular Covid-19 cases of returning Thais who have been identified during the compulsory quarantine period. The Elite card is not issued by Thai embassies worldwide but by the government in Bangkok after liaison with the immigration bureau. Applications can be made on-line from virtually anywhere in the world and are welcome irrespective of age or nationality. However, Elite membership does not allow working in Thailand nor ownership of land. It is basically a long-term visitor visa which additionally carries perks such as fast-track immigration and discounts at some leisure and retail outlets. Holders are not exempt from the requirement to report their address every 90 days if they have not left the country for three months. Several British nationals, desperate to return to Thailand, told Pattaya Mail that they had applied on-line and been told the processing period was between two weeks and two months. Once granted, the card could be picked up by special arrangement at a Bangkok airport. They are allowed to request permission to travel from the Thai embassy during the application period after payment of the cash sum. One applicant Roger Inkerman said, “The Elite offers me the only possible way to return this year, so I’m keeping my fingers crossed.” Views differ on the overall merits of Elite. Some claim it is expensive, does not exclude members from regular reporting at the immigration bureau and has few tangible benefits. But others point out that a cash payment of 500,000 baht for a guaranteed five years is a fair deal, especially as there are no further financial requirements or checks. Roger Inkerman concluded, “It’s good value for money when you remember that the annual Thai retirement visa requires you always to have 800,000 baht in your account for five months and 400,000 baht for the other seven. This is money you can’t spend. Elite is a better deal.” https://www.pattayamail.com/featured/elite-card-is-not-a-free-pass-to-return-to-thailand-309876

Why not take him off and find out . . . ? If nothing else, at least you would be rubbing more salt into vinapu's wounds.

I think what is most likely to happen is at some point - and I have no clue as to when that might be - Thailand will start allowing tourists in from countries that are not experiencing a virus problem. Countries that are having the problem, especially the USA where not only the virus is rampant, but so many people refuse to even wear a face mask, it's going to be a very long time before they are allowed in. And even then, I'm still expecting a quarantine requirement - at the traveler's own expense. One of the potential problems for gay holiday makers is whether there will still be enough gay venues in business to make travel to Thailand even worthwhile at all. I'm envisioning a worst case scenario to be much higher airfares if the airlines require social distancing, fewer airlines even flying to Thailand, proof of insurance that covers Covid-19, 14 day quarantine required at your own expense, mandatory health checks even after being released from quarantine, and only a few gay venues still open if any even survived long enough to remain open. I wish I could feel optimistic about it, but in my estimation even if tourists are allowed in unimpeded tomorrow, it will still be at least several years before gay venues even resemble the way things were just a few years ago. Along with the Covid-19 problems, the gay scene in Pattaya was already in trouble with many bars going out of business and prudish over-regulation courtesy of the powers-that-be, long before anyone ever heard of Covid-19. The Covid-19 crisis may very well be the unfortunate straw that finally breaks the Thailand gay scene's back. This is one time I hope I'm totally wrong about every word I wrote in this post, but so far I haven't seen or even heard anything that would alter my prediction.

In that case, consider yourself officially invited to a party - at my house - any time . . .

That's another restaurant I've never heard of . . .

Thank you Michael. I would like to see more such posts when people find good, reasonably priced restaurants, no matter where in Thailand. There are never enough of these posts. Sometimes I wonder, even in Pattaya where I live, how many good "undiscovered" restaurants there are still to be found. I would never have heard of Ash Kickers if you hadn't posted about it, but now it's definitely on my list for next time I'm in Bangkok. Especially now, with the absence of farang tourists, letting people know about these places certainly helps to attract customers. These days, the venues need all the customers they can get.

If the proposal is passed as proposed, the answer is yes. However, don't make the mistake of assuming it will be so great or something you would want to jump into. Many serious questions already have come up - and none of know the answers yet. I suggest reading the topic about it on my board. See: https://www.gaybuttonthai.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10441

I can handle it if Trump wins that one . . .

Definitely. For me, no question about it, my vote goes to Biden. I am also still eligible to vote in Florida elections. There are two I will vote against when it's time for their elections, One is that moron governor Ron DeSantis. The other is Marco Rubio. For Trump and every one of his supporters currently in office, I hope I'll get to play my favorite Carol Channing song from Hello Dolly - "Wave your little hand and whisper so long dearie." Remember: "Vote early and often . . ."

This has not been mentioned anywhere and I have no evidence of any kind whatsoever to back this up. It's just a thought on my part, so don't be alarmed - but I can't help wondering if and when the bars do reopen, will the powers-that-be ban taking boys off . . . ?

I wouldn't be trying to book any flights just yet. Even if foreigners are allowed to enter Thailand unimpeded, which currently they are not, there are still quite a few things we just don't know yet, such as: 1. Even if they are allowed to fly to Thailand, how many airlines will do so? 2. What will the price of tickets be? 3. Are you willing to risk the possibility of another Covid-19 breakout, and ending up stuck in Thailand if international flights are prohibited again or if your home country won't permit incoming flights? 4. Will your hotel choices be available? 5. Even if the bars are allowed to open again (which by the way may be very soon), will they open again before they can be sure there will be enough customers so they can at least break even? 6. Will the bars have problems getting boys? Many boys went back home when they lost their jobs. Now bus fares have gone up considerably due to the social distancing restrictions. They would not only need enough money to pay the bus fare, but unless something changes the boys are usually paid at the end of the month, which means they would need to have enough money to pay a month's rent and security in advance, enough money for food, personal items, etc. In short, will the bar boys even be able to afford to return? 7. What will be the social distancing restrictions in the bars? We don't know yet. Will the boys and customers be required to wear face masks? Will there be restrictions on the operating hours? 8. Are you willing to risk arriving in Thailand only to find yourself quarantined for 14 days? __________________________________________________________________ And then, there's this. As far as I know, this is the latest information: Foreigners allowed to enter Thailand on case-by-case basis May 29, 2020 Under phase 3 of the lockdown relaxation, foreigners with work permits or permission from the Labour Ministry or other government agencies will be allowed to enter the country, the Foreign Ministry announced on Friday (May 29). “Permission to enter does not cover all groups as we are proceeding step by step,” said deputy spokesman Natapanu Nopakun at a daily briefing on the Covid-19 situation. The Foreign Ministry has informed Thailand’s foreign chambers of commerce about the relaxation. Eligible foreign nationals are invited to submit applications at Thai Embassies in their countries. They must have health insurance and a health certificate. They will also be subject to 14- quarantine on entry to Thailand, either in a state facility or in a private facility at their own cost. Details of the letter sent to all foreign chambers of commerce in Thailand are as follows: 1. The Royal Thai Government's invocation of the Emergency Decree on Public Administration in Emergency Situations BE2548 (2005) (No I) dated 25 March BE2563 (2020) to control the outbreak of the Coronavirus Disease (Covid-19), closes the entry into the Kingdom of non-Thai nationals, in accordance with the laws on communicable diseases and immigration. However, clause 3 (5) of the Regulation issued under the said Emergency Decree, also allows non-Thai nationals who either possess a valid work permit or have already been granted permission from a Thai government agency to work in the Kingdom, to apply for permission to enter the Kingdom. 2. It is, however, requested that only those in urgent need to enter the Kingdom may submit an application for entry. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs, in consultation with the Board of Investment and the Ministry of Labour, will consider all requests for entry on a case by case basis, taking into account urgency and economic importance, among others. 3. The procedure for non-Thai nationals who wish to submit an application for entry are as follows: 3.1 Contact the Royal Thai Embassy or the Royal Thai Consulate-General in their country of departure to apply for 'Certificate of Entry into the Kingdom of Thailand" at least 10 working days before the date of intended departure. The applicants must present: (1) copy of his work permits or copy of Ietter of permission issued by a Thai Government agency (in most cases, by the Ministry of Labour) to work in Thailand; (2) a valid health insurance policy covering all expenditures of medical treatment, including Covid-19 worth at least 100,000 USD. 3.2 The Thai Embassy/Consulate-General will forward the application to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Bangkok. If the application is approved, the Thai Embassy/Consulate-General will be instructed to issue the "Certificate of Entry into the Kingdom of Thailand" and appropriate visa to the applicant. 4. At the port of departure/embarkation (eg airline check-in counter), the approved applicant is required to present (I) a "Certificate of Entry into the Kingdom of Thailand" issued by the Royal Thai Embassy Consulate-General; (2) a completed and signed "Declaration Form" obtained from the Embassy/Consulate-General; (3) a Fit to Fly Health Certificate' issued no more than 72 hours before departure; and (4) a health insurance covering all expenditures of medical treatment, including Covid-19, while traveling to Thailand in an amount of at least 100,000 USD. 5. Upon entry into the Kingdom, non-Thai nationals will be subjected to a 14-day state quarantine at a government-designated Alternative State Quarantine (ASQ) facility at their own expenses, and obliged to comply with the government's disease prevention measures pursuant to clause 11 of the Regulation issued under Section 9 of the said Emergency Decree. Ministry of Foreign Affairs https://www.nationthailand.com/news/30388723

I wonder how they are planning to control how many people enter each car and how many people are even allowed to wait on the platforms. Even then, how do they control social distancing? "There are some things you cannot do." Colin Firth (Dr. Wilhelm Stuckart), 'Conspiracy'

Don't forget - no matter what AirBnB does, and I don't remember if this applies to all of Thailand, but in Pattaya short term rentals less than 1 month are only available at hotels and properties designated as hotels. Other than that, in Pattaya short term rents have been made illegal. There has been a great many complaints about this, but those complaints are falling on deaf ears. In Pattaya, at least, that's the way it is.

I don't know just who to report things like that to, but you should make a point of finding out and reporting it. The penalties for price gouging are severe and people are being arrested for it. Don't think the authorities will just ignore it and do nothing about it. This is one time they really are doing something about it.

Don't be so sure about the second one . . .