Min

I understand. There are merits on both sides of the argument. However, my main point was trying to help Jason see why his guy flat out told him "I want you to come to my bar" (instead of just implying) even though they have dinner with each other every day. Of course, the decision on how to act is totally his. I'm also aware that with Bangkok drink pricing, it's costly to help raise the boy's status that way. Let me share some of my own experiences. I used to have a regular boy in Pattaya's X-boys, who often sent me a message during more quiet nights "Min, please stop by and give me a drink. I have had none so far." To be honest, the only thing I liked about that bar at the time was him so I only set foot inside whenever I want to off him (usually once per week). Other nights, whenever I passed by, I went straight to the stage and tucked 100B in his underwear and then left. Other boys oohed and aahed, and my boy looked proud as a peacock. That was of my way of showing him public support without breaking the bank.

You may want to try to look at it from the boy’s perspective. He might think that if you care for him, you would show up in his bar frequently, offing and/or buying him drinks, and by doing that, show others how popular he is, increasing his values and status in the bar. Several boys, once given a choice by me, 100B tip or one more drink (from which they get 50B), invariably go for one more drink to increase the total number of drinks they secure for the bar. This is not just about money. The boy might even expect you to also buy drinks for his less fortunate friends, raising his status among those too. In other words, giving him “face” in the bar may mean more to him than having dinner together every day. If you are not sure, have a heart-to-heart with him and see what he thinks, which would probably help you better balance between personal interactions and public display of support

Could you two take the chance and make a video together?

Wonder why you singled out Olddaddy? Because of his porn-star potentials?

Brief update on T. and the Dutch customer, the story that started this thread (as usual, my threads never have a clear focus and I just put down whatever takes my fancy at the moment). It looks like they are going steady. The customer stops by every day without fail, only sits with T., sometimes for a very long time (the other day, he arrived at 7pm and was still there at 11pm, when I left). There is only one off so far, but the customer will stay here for two more weeks, so WE AT THE BAR all hope for something more substantial out of it. J. stopped T. every time we ran into him to get an update. Yes, we care that much, especially when it comes to a chance for a long-term relationship. Speaking of long-term relationships, last night I sat with V., currently the oldest boy in the bar (34). He currently dates a farang boyfriend, an American expat, who gives him a generous monthly allowance of 30K Baht and still allows him to work in the bar. "I can sit and go drinking with customers, but no sex. That's his condition. He said if he ever found out that I cheated, he will end our association immediately." V. already bought a house in his hometown, a few hours away by bus from Pattaya. 16K monthly down payment would come from the aforesaid allowance. He's also been trying to save, earmarked for opening a coffee house in his hometown. "That is one reason my boyfriend allows me to continue to work here. He wants me to do the saving myself." V. told me. "When I reach my target of 200K, I will stop working in the bar and move back home." "But what about your boyfriend? He lives here in Pattaya, right?" "Oh, he will move and live with me in my house. That's our plan for a future together." According to V., the said boyfriend actually sat in the bar and observed him at work for some time before finally approaching him. Their relationship is still fresh and they do it step by step, At the moment, V.'s been staying with him 3 days a week, aiming for living with each other full-time down the line. "It seems you guys got it all figured out. Your boyfriend is so thoughtful. You have a good thing going for you. I think you should avoid doing anything that may jeopardize the relationship. Work harder, take good care of him, keep him staying in love with you. Don't risk it just for some quick buck." "I know. He said he loves me and wants to be with me for a long time. If he keeps his part of promise, I won't cheat. " "Do you love him?" I asked. "Actually, at the moment, I only like him." V. was honest with his answer. "But my feeling for him is growing. I want to be with him every day." When asked about his previous relationships, V. said he was in love with a German guy a while ago. "When he decided to leave Thailand and move back home, I had cried for days because I know I would never see him again. I still miss him sometimes." "Suppose the German guy comes back to Pattaya right at this moment, what would you do if you have to choose?" It didn't take long for him to come up with an answer. "I would sit with him and talk but would not do anything that may break my boyfriend's heart. I know how hurtful it is to have your heart broken. My boyfriend has been good to me. I would not do anything to hurt him." (I wish all those younger boys working in the soi would share the same view). It's already midnight. I gave V. his tip and told him I want to sit with him again some time in the future to get updates on his relationship. "J. told me you are a lovely person. Now I think so too." V. said "You are a lovely person too." I said So we said goodbyes, feeling happier because both of us are lovely hehehe. PS. I really like the arrangements made between V. and his boyfriend. Maybe it's time I make a similar deal, officially, with J., (whose own dream is opening a clothes store back in his hometown).

In order to answer your question more thoroughly, here is a bit of history: before he came to Thailand, J. had 2 ex-boyfriends. One is Thai, who he met totally online, dated a few months, even prepared to travel to Thailand to meet then somehow found out that Thai had a local boyfriend. Then he got a Laos boyfriend, who lived in a different province and who used to pick him up on his car (having your own car in Laos rural areas is a big deal so I guess this ex-boyfriend was pretty well-off by the local living standard). J.'s first and only sexual experiences in Laos, according to him, were with this ex-boyfriend, but "we don't have sex that much because he lives far away." It looks like this boyfriend doted on him and also provided him financial support (J. worked in a shoe factory at the time, which paid minimum wages). Then 7 months later, the same old story: he found out the boyfriend had another boy in yet another province, so cut him out of his life completely. The boyfriend later wanted to get back together, but J. said "No, he hurt me badly with his cheating, I could never forgive". Then he moved to Thailand and met me. Again, this is what he said: I'm the second person he ever had sex with. He made it clear that he wants a long-term relationship but also that he expects financial support from his partner because he himself is responsible for a big family back home. "My friends have had chances to travel and have fun but all I know since high-school graduation is work and work." When he introduced me to his mother, he even asked "Can I say you are my boyfriend?" There was a tinge in my heart that he even has to ask for permission. But as he explained, this time the relationship is different. There is a big difference between us in terms of social and financial status, and I'm also his customer from whom he received money in exchange for sexual favors. It's funny that when I travel to his village to meet his family for the first time, the whole village stopped by just to see what J's foreign boyfriend looks like (Who spread the news, I have no idea, but the gossip mills there obviously just spin as fast as in JC) Back to your other question, I used to think that he must have other, however limited, sexual encounters with other customers because after all, he needs money and he works in JC. But to this day, I haven't had a single concrete evidence of that. The whole bar, where he works, knew about us and appeared to cheer for us. After just a few weeks, every time someone saw me, the first thing they said is "J. is blah blah". I once asked the bartender "Why everybody mentioned J. the instant they see me. I'm just one of his customers." And you know what he said. "Because from beginning, you guys never looked like customer and boy. Whenever I see you two together, I see a couple." I treat many boys in that bar nicely including those I never off, buying them drinks on those "lean" times when they couldn't make one single drink the whole night. Some keep an eye on J. for my sake, give me updates about him when I'm not around, but not a single one ever said he saw J. went to a hotel with a customer. What @gayinpattayawho I believe lives full-time in Jomtien and knows a lot about what's going on in the complex, just said in his comment above, further cemented the belief that he probably never went with another customer. I myself never demand that he can only go with me though, but I did say if he has sex with other customers, always play it safe to protect both of us. I know J.'s type (Asian, slim, smooth and fair complexion). There was one time when suspicion raised its ugly head, I decided to test J. (a decision I later regretted) by asking H., a Taiwanese friend, who I know would be J's type, to approach him, posing as a customer. This is a drama in its own right that I may recount another time, but after found out that H. was my friend, J. did tell H. "Min was the only person I have sex with since I arrived in Pattaya" (J. himself never told me this). Thanks for the info though. That helps I'm still trying to learn more about J. and his values in life, and on many occasions, have struggled to understand why he did what he did.

I think many boys are aware of that but they probably also have their own principle(s) to stick too. Early in our relationship, actually when I just started out as his regular customer for a month, I did put that question to J. "If you agree to have sex with more customers, you can make a lot more money. Why don't you do it? You are working here as a money boy. Sex is, after all, just job." "No, if I don't have feeling for a guy, I won't have sex with him. Period." "But you will lose out on a lot of money..." "Money is not everything. I just try to get what I can." That conversation was a turning point for me as I started to see him in a different light - a young person of principles. I started to make sure, no matter how many times we met that month, I gave him enough money to live and to send home (a poor family of 8 siblings, all farming, father died of heart problems 2 years ago).

You are probably right that you know who J. is. But I’m curious that how some old geezers knew he agreed to go hotel with me that week. We certainly did not advertise that fact.

Oops. What do you mean by "That was you?" Did we have a chance to talk in the bar?

I'm in a mood of reminiscence today, so in the spirit of the Bangkokbois and his Dancing with Devil series, I'll relate here some of my own falling in love with a bar boy. I met my special boy, J., in Jomtien a year ago. When we first met, I thought he's the best looking boy in the bar at that time (and that's saying something because that bar is full of boys my type). He told me he only started work 4 days ago, already received quite a few offers for off, but he said no to all of them. "If I don't like and feel comfortable with a customer, I won't go with him to the hotel." "Would you go with me?" I asked after more than an hour sitting with J., talking about his life back in Laos, his family and also his previous love life. "Yes." There's no hesitance in his answer. "For how much?" "2000" "Why so much? Other boys only ask for 1500, and many would go for 1000." (to be honest, if he asked for 3000, I would still agree because he's exactly my type - body, face and personality even (and a killer smile to top it off), but I feel it's my obligation to bargain so as not to upset the market and some fellow customers "I know, but I want 2000." "Is 1500 ok?" "No, 2000." J. was firm. "Why?" "Because I never go with anyone before and this is my first time." (not sure about the logic of that argument, but I gave up haggling quickly, feeling thankful he didn't ask for 3000). So I paid the bar fine (300), my own drink and the boy drink (150), and off we went to Boyztown, where my hotel is. On the baht bus, I asked him a question I usually ask boys "What type of guys do you like to be your boyfriend?" "Someone like you." was his answer, again with no hesitance. At that time, I just laughed it off (well, bar boy standard line) and told him exactly what I thought "You would say that to all customers." "No, I do not." He seemed upset. After almost a year together, I finally believe he meant what he said that day. The next day, I'm back to the bar in order to off him again. I was early but he's already with a customer, someone from Australia. So I sat with another boy, whom I chose randomly, at a table opposite, so that I could watch what's going at the other table (I know I should not do that but I can't help myself). The customer seemed smitten with J.. He hugged the boy all the time, ordered food from outside, even bought him a bouquet when a door-to-door flower seller stopped by. At my table, ironically, things went the other way around. The boy sitting with me (who happened to be D. also a new boy, who started work as the same time as J.. He is the one who was asked to give a customer 40-min blowjob I talked about in the other thread), seemed very passionate and clingy. He hugged me tight, his hands all over my body, even found their way inside my underwear. He placed my hand on his shorts to show me he's already getting hard. Kept asking me if I want to off him. Unfortunately, my attention was all on the other table. To be fair, the cheerful Australian who sat with J. seems a very nice guy, except that he... sat with J. And then, he paid the off fee. "So much for I only go with someone I like and feel comfortable huh" I thought. Why I felt so upset about a money boy I just met? He's a money boy and that's what he does. I kept reasoning with myself all the way to M-bar, another bar where lots of boys know me. I need a distraction. And you know what, there's that customer again with J. sitting in a dark corner. Obviously, they just moved bar. I don't want to stay there, so I left again. Enough for today, I decided to go back. When I reached my hotel in Boyztown, I got J.'s message. It turned out he only agreed to go drinking in another bar (the customer did ask him for a hotel visit at the end of the night but he turned that down and still received a generous tip of 1500B just for being a companion) and he was free already. J. also seemed upset because he actually checked with D. to see if I eventually offed D. and D. somehow got the idea that I would come back to off him after I'm done with bar hopping. I don't recall saying anything to that effect, but after all, I don't remember whatever I said to D. back in the bar. The third day, I learned my lesson and told J. in advance I will come to take him off. On the bus, I received his message "Where are you? There's a customer who wants to sit with me, so I have to check with you. You want me to wait for you or is it okay I sit with him first?" Of course, I want J. to wait for me, but I also want him to make more money with drinks so told him it's ok to sit with the customer, I could wait until he's free. What a wait it was. The customer, an Asian one and quite young this time, sat with J. for nearly 3 hours through a bunch of drinks, probably trying to get him to agree to a hotel visit. After nearly 2 hours, I got impatient and messaged J, saying if the customer wants to off him, he can go but let me know so that I don't waste my time waiting. "NOOO, I want to go with you" came back the instant answer. Then, I decided to watch the show in M2M bar to kill time. About 45 minutes into the show, I got J.'s message "Come, quick, before I have another customer". It feels like a who-gets-to-the-bar-boy-first competition. I quickly paid the bill, left the show midway, and walked briskly back to the bar. J. literally ran from inside to meet me at the entrance with his stuff. That trip, the only boy I offed is J. and the rest is history. PS. Last night, on our way back to my hotel situated right in JC, J. ran into a customer, who sat with him a few times in the bar. "Where are you going?" The customer asked on passing by. "To hotel" J. flashed his irresistible smile, pointing at me. The customer stopped mid-stride, turned and did a double take. J., to a hotel, with a customer?

Actually, many veterans here know better than ditching regular customers, who would continue to support them in difficult times, for a quick buck. If you ask boys in my favorite bar who has the most customers, they would all say "K.", who sometimes had between 20 and 30 drinks in a single night. When I asked him to sit with me for the first time, he actually declined my request (politely of course) because one of his regular customers said he would stop by.

If you need a cameraman, who would work gratis, count me in

Some SHORT-TIME price updates for Pattaya (based on boys' input) There are basically three levels of price for short time 1. Tourist level: 1500B, boys usually ask for 2000B but ready to be bargained down to 1500. Some even maintain two tiers: 1500 for no anal & 2000 with anal. If boys accompany you to another bar for drinking and/or watching shows but no sex involved, they usually expect anything between 500 and 1000 (plus the bar fine). 2. Local expat level: 700B to 1000B 3. Local Thai level: 500B (usually made via apps like Blued and Hornet) When J., my boy, heard about that 500B deal, he laughed out loud and said "It's ridiculous!" He was probably spoilt by the 3000B I normally give him, but I told him to put himself in other boys' shoes. If you are alone in a foreign country, far away from home, and you have no steady income, no boyfriend/regular customers to turn to when in need, you probably would do anything just to survive. There is a Thai boy named Th., who just moved to Pattaya last month from Bangkok. He's currently working in JC's M-bar, where most of the boys are freelancers. 18 years old, gay but straight-acting, quite good-looking (tall, silk smooth skin with fine facial features, slim but not too fit). I asked if he had many offs since he moved here, and he said no, mostly drinks. Why? You are pretty! Because when customers approached him, he asked for 3000B (because he got paid like that in Bangkok) and they all bargained down that price by an absurd amount (some even started from hundreds up!). I told him, with that level of expectation, he should move to a more touristy area, like Boyztown. Actually, he would have the best chance at Boyz Boyz Boyz, but too bad that the bar's age limit was upped to 21 about a year ago. Speaking of Boyz Boyz Boyz, most of their working boys are straight and usually expect at least 3000 from lady customers, who in fact tend to give more. If they are forced to deal with a gay customer, they may ask for 5000 upward either to make it worth their while or simply so that the customer would give up. I also notice a more noticeable trend of boys picking and choosing customers. K., a very attractive Laos boy, who just started working in Jomtien a few weeks ago (he was a Mor lam dancer back in Laos), told me "I know customers choose boys, but we choose customers too." In his first day at work, probably because of his good look, big "tool", and new-face freshness, a customer offered to take him for the whole weekend for a generous tip, only to receive a firm NO. The bar staff, when he told that story to me, added "Let's wait until the low season and he'll see."

It looks to me you’ve come up with a new career idea every few hours

Hic, then I guess they all are in it. No wonder, the other waiter (the English-speaking one) couldn't care less when I talked about the cheating. I was cheated only once by the Chinese-speaking waiter my first time there. Later on, I visited the place quite often so probably they know better than trying to pull a fast one on me.

Jason, long time no see, but I can see from the other thread that you are doing well Haha, and how much do you think I should ask for my cut? (100B is the norm from what I heard) Except when you check for the "insertion" rite? A little update: the customer made good on his promise. Yesterday, when I entered the bar, the new lovebirds were already busily at it and it wasn't even 9 pm. But it looks like the gentleman wants to take it slow, taking time to get to know the boy better (I like that). He promised he would be back again tonight and probably with an off. Oops, this is news to me. The other day, I took off my own shirt in the bar so that my boy can massage my shoulder. I wish you were there to warn me about what's legal and what's not

Again, that Chinese-speaking person is not mamasan. He’s just a normal waiter. Other staff in the bar know about his bullshit (I talked to them about this) but nobody would do anything because he’s probably valuable in dealing with Chinese customers. Some boys told me they gave him 100 or 2 if he helped them score a Chinese customer. So just take my advice, ignore him and ask for another waiter. He won’t bother you anymore. FYI. There is only one mamasan in that bar, that tall Thai guy.

Last night, I sat in my favorite haunt with J., my regular boy, whom I have been taken off almost every day whenever I'm in Pattaya since last Dec (1-year anniversary coming up). As usual, I asked him to pick a friend to sit with us. J., from Laos, called T., another Laos boy, over. He said "Although we are not close, I want to help him. I hardly ever saw he had customers. " T. is slim, not bad looking but quiet and reserved in manner (kinda out of place in this kind of bar), and on the older side in terms of barboy age (28). We talked and he indeed had few customers. Been working here for nearly two months, only 4 off so far, not so many drinks either, so he barely made it. While we were chatting, a customer, who was sitting alone at the next table, looked on with interest. Then he asked me in English if T. is also working in the bar, probably because he was fully dressed while all other boys (including my own) were shirtless. Feeling an opportunity is presenting itself, I confirmed and asked if he wanted to sit with the boy, explaining that although T. was sitting with us, I'm more than glad to let him switch tables. The guy appeared he wasn't sure what to do, saying that he's pretty new to the scene and still trying to figure out how things work. So T. remained at our table but the customer joined in the conversation on a translation-chain basis, meaning he said something to me in English, I Google-translated into Laos then showed it to J. who in turns repeated to T. It went like that for a while, and all of a sudden, the customer said loudly, to no one in particular, "It would be better if he takes off his shirt". When that idea finally reached T. down the translation line, he still looked sort of uncertain about what to do. It was time something needs to be done to speed things up. So I stood up, marched over to T., who was sitting across the table, and took off his shirt with my hands. Then I chaperoned both him and his drink to the next table, and gently pushed him down next to the customer. Now T. can communicate directly with the customer using google translation. Things started going smoother and the customer ordered two more drinks for himself and T. The customer is Dutch but lives in Spain. He said he is quite reserved himself so has great affinity for a shy boy like T., who, in the customer's words, obviously was not self-aware of how handsome he is. The customer himself is not bad-looking either, and J. confirmed he checked off several things on a bar boy's list "neat-looking, polite, no body odor, not too old, not too fat." "I'm not gonna take advantage of the boy the first time we talk. I can't promise that the next time though." He said. Gentlemanly conduct, but me think "Please. He's ready to be taken advantage of. That's why he's working here". Then I noticed there was still some (physical) distance between T. and the customer, who sat ramrod straight. I told J., who told T. to get closer. Since T. still didn't look like he knows what to do, I gestured for him to follow my lead: I nudged closer to J., hugged him, rested my head lightly on his shoulder, and placed a peck on his cheek. T., albeit a bit haltingly, followed suit, down to the pecking part. The customer, obviously seeing the whole thing, looked both amused and happy. He declared "I've been here for only three days and I'm already in love!" Again, I told J., who reminded T. to ask for the customer's contact. They later parted ways with what looks like a big tip for T. and the promise by the customer that he will come back and talk to the boy again tomorrow. I believe, he, being such a gentleman, will keep his word. I also believe I would make a good Mamasan in case I need a side job. To end on a warm note: late into the night, after J. went back to his room, I came back to the bar to watch the soi winding down. I looked inside and saw T., now totally shirtless, dancing energetically with other boys, smiling broadly when he saw me. He seemed to get that confidence boost he needed. Then I sat at the bar outside, chatted with the bartender and watched people. Somehow I might look a bit lonely and sad, to the point that another gentleman, who'd obviously mistaken me for someone in need of a customer, came to give me a hug upon leaving the bar and whispered in my ear "Don't be too shy. Things will get better!"

Of course, information from this kind of source is susceptible to distortion and personal biases/grudges. I certainly don't rely on it to form my opinions about fellow customers (No plans anyway. After all, I don't know any of them). But it does give me ideas about what kind of info boys tend to focus on and share among each other. Believe me, I already heard several things less than flattering about myself. Sometimes the boy even said it, in my presence, in Thai to another boy because he knows I don't understand, and the latter later told me. That sums up nicely things they tend to focus on.

Sometimes, just to kill time, I would (discreetly) point at a customer, who's sitting in the same bar or just passing by, and ask the boy(s) what "the store" makes of him. If boys know you for a long time and trust you, they can be honest and sometimes very specific in their opinions, which, I believe, are shared by many others in the same bar. Here are some snippets I collected yesterday in Pattaya. "That customer's all smiling but boys don't like to sit with him because he's very demanding." "That one is worse. He once opened a bottle and forced me to drink a lot to get me drunk so that he can deep-kiss me. I don't kiss customers in the store and I hate it. He also asked me go hotel with him. I no go." [the last part was made originally in English] "He's Japanese, nice and generous. Come here a lot, usually sit with many boys at the same time. Also take us out to parties and restaurants without doing anything nasty to us." "He has a handsome face but he's not clean. Body odor, bad breath. I don't want to go with customers who are not clean." "He's nice and gentle. Most of the times, he just want to talk and us to listen. No groping." "He once asked D. to suck him for 40 minutes first. Yes, he said FORTY MINUTES. Then had sex for 2 hours in total and he gave only 1000 Baht". [I did manage to talk to D. about this particular case and saw his horrified look at the mention of the customer. He's probably scarred for life.]

If it is the Chinese-speaking one (who is just a waiter and who always try to pull a fast one on new customers), you were definitely ripped off. I fell victim to him once, years ago, my first time in Toy Boys too. Next time you see him, just tell him to f*ck off and ask for another waiter. That's what I did and he left me alone since.

I was in Toy Boy Boyztown tonight. There were 2 Indians guys who came in together and they ordered one single beer to share between them. After they left, another pair of young Indians in their 20s came in. The way the female clung to her companion, it looked like they are a couple. And the guy carried with him a half-finished beer bottle. They sat down, gawking at boys in underwear on stage for a few minutes while the guy continued to finish his own beer, ignoring the waiter literally shoving the bar’s menu to his face. Then they stood up and left. The remaining customers looked at each other like what the hell just happened. Maybe the business was so slow the bar tolerated such behaviors. It’s sad.

Are you holding a big Zero right now At any rate, I felt bad for Korn too, but not bad enough to cough up 1000B just to help him save some face. You made life too complicated man!

Actually, the main purpose of wearing a condom during a show is the particular knot they made at the base of their penis to wrap the condom tightly around it so that it could stay hard for long. Certain straight boys may also use the same trick to keep it up during his sessions with a customer.

Just out of idle curiosity, what would you offer Justin Bieber then? Speaking of comedy, did you see that ridiculous big cock show in the New Dream Boy, where all the guys drag (wigs, skirts and all), stumbling around on high heels with their cock picking out under the skirt?