Do you clap when no one's done anything?

[unicorn]

Am I alone in thinking it's a bit silly when the audience claps as the conductor enters the orchestra pit, or when the curtains rise at the start of a play, musical, or opera? I certainly clap after a piece is played, or after a well-sung aria, and so on. But should just showing up for work merit applause? Occasionally, I will applaud as the curtains are raised, when I see an impressive set. But then I'm applauding the set designer(s)/production crew, whose work is on display, rather than the actors or singers, who haven't started working yet. 

[PeterRS]

I have been to quite a few opera performances in my time and never thought about the tradition of applauding the conductor as he enters the orchestra pit. I think it is partly a mark of respect, in just the same way the audience applaud when a conductor walks to the podium in a symphony concert. I always do it, but I think it is also an ideal way of getting the audience to become perfectly quiet before an opera/concert starts. I actually do not like applause after a particularly well sung aria as this slows down the dramatic action. Nor am I a fan of applauding as the curtain rises just because the scenery is particularly impressive. I think applause should wait till the end of each Act. As @unicorn points out, although the designers' work is finished by then, on opening night all on the production team will appear on stage after the singers and take their own applause.

I love two videos of the Richard Strauss opera Der Rosenkavalier, one conducted by Herbert von Karajan and the other by arguably the finest conductor of the 20th century Carlos Kleiber. Both enter the pit to applause but then do not pause: they start the orchestra virtually at the height of the applause. They get straight into the orchestral prelude which, prior to the curtain rising, depicts two of the main characters making passionate love in bed. It concludes with four quick "upthrusts" on the horns - and what that signifies is perfectly obvious! 

On a side note, a dozen years ago I spent three lovely days in Dresden just to attend a Rosenkavalier performance at the renowned Semper Opera. This was mostly destroyed during the war in the massive air raids on Dresden and it took the city 40 years to reconstuct it. It was where Strauss was Music Director for many years and many of his operas were given their premiere, although not Rosenkavalier. The acoustics are superb. Just next to the hotel where we stayed is the glorious Frauenkirche which was aso partially destroyed during the Dresden bombing. The interior is superb. A burst of colour hits you as you enter.

The exterior of the Semper Opera 

The glorious interior of the Dresden Frauenkirche

[unicorn]

4 hours ago, PeterRS said:

... I think it is also an ideal way of getting the audience to become perfectly quiet before an opera/concert starts. I actually do not like applause after a particularly well sung aria as this slows down the dramatic action...

I never thought of it as a great way to get people to shut up before the overture. Yeah, you're right--that makes sense. As a friend of a professional opera tenor, I assure you that the singers greatly appreciate applause after a successful aria. I think that most of the rebuilding of Dresden came in the first 15 years after re-unification. I went there once in the late 80s when they were part of the DDR, then another time about 10 years ago. It was like an entirely different city. Until re-unification, the church was just a pile of bricks left at the site, labeled as a so-called "memorial to imperialism."

 

[PeterRS]

3 hours ago, unicorn said:

I never thought of it as a great way to get people to shut up before the overture. Yeah, you're right--that makes sense. As a friend of a professional opera tenor, I assure you that the singers greatly appreciate applause after a successful aria. I think that most of the rebuilding of Dresden came in the first 15 years after re-unification. I went there once in the late 80s when they were part of the DDR, then another time about 10 years ago. It was like an entirely different city. Until re-unification, the church was just a pile of bricks left at the site, labeled as a so-called "memorial to imperialism."

There are still many who believe that the three massive overnight bombings of the city by American and UK aircraft towards the end of the war were in fact a war crime. Many believed that Churchill intended to destroy what was a cultural landmark of major significance in retaliation for the Nazi bombing of Coventry earlier in the war. It was argued that there was little of military significance in the city apart from some railway junctions. 

I'm delighted you included Fabio Luisi's rendition of the Nozze di Figaro overture. He is one of the true major conductors of today. Some years ago he was hired by New York's Metropolitan Opera as the potential successor to James Levine. He would have been perfect. But the Met's GM, the perfectly dreadful Peter Gelb who should never have been given the job, decided as he has throughout his reign that he wanted someone younger.

SInce we are discussing music and opera in particular, one of the finest orchestras in the world is the Dresden Staatskapelle. I am thrilled to have heard it several times on tour in Taipei, the latest with Thielemann conducting Wagner and Brahms. In my earlier post I mentioned Carlos Kleiber. A notoriously difficult conductor for managements (who generally failed to realise that he was a deeply private, sensitive and insecure personality) although utterly adored by singers, he was hired by Deutsche Grammophon for a CD recording of Wagner's Tristan und Isolde in Dresden. He wanted a more youthful voice for isolde and chose the glorious Welsh soprano Dame Margaret Price, even though she could never have sung it in a full live performance. The result is magnificent. But Kleiber was unhappy (not unusual for him) and he ended up walking out of the recording before it was complete. He then threatened to sue DGG if they ever tried to release any of it. Fortunately for posterity, the engineers had been recording all the rehearsals as well as the 'takes'. In the end DGG did release the full opera and Kleiber did not sue. Amazingly the full opera is available on youtube.

Remarkably, although the accolades for Kleiber as the finest conductor of the 20th century continue, in his lifetime it is extraordinary to realise he only conducted 400 opera performances and less than 100 symphony concerts. Thankfully there are a few videos available, including this of Beethoven's 7th Symphony with Amsterdam's Concertgebouw Orchestra. Many regard it as the finest ever recorded. But even for those who would not dream of sitting through more than a few minutes, do tr\y and watch the first five. See how Kleiber is unike almost every other conductor. He is truly living that music. How I wish I could have seen and heard him conduct.

 

[vinapu]

4 hours ago, PeterRS said:

There are still many who believe that the three massive overnight bombings of the city by American and UK aircraft towards the end of the war were in fact a war crime. Many believed that Churchill intended to destroy what was a cultural landmark of major significance in retaliation for the Nazi bombing of Coventry earlier in the war. It was argued that there was little of military significance in the city apart from some railway junctions. 

 

 

Churchill was right, nothing destroys morale of fighting nation more than  destruction of cherished  cultural symbol. demolish some shipyard , military base or factory , it will only strengthen resolve, demolish nation's icon, you may be called barbarian but war has chance of ending very soon and as by product,  you may immortalize yourself.

Only one column is left from Artemida's temple in Efes but name of that idiot Herostrates lives forever.

[unicorn]

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

There are still many who believe that the three massive overnight bombings of the city by American and UK aircraft towards the end of the war were in fact a war crime. Many believed that Churchill intended to destroy what was a cultural landmark of major significance in retaliation for the Nazi bombing of Coventry earlier in the war. It was argued that there was little of military significance in the city apart from some railway junctions...

I must respectfully disagree with the view that the bombings of German cities wasn't justified. As the son of a Belgian resistance private, and grandson of a Belgian resistance colonel, I will attest that they also witnessed the indiscriminate bombings of civilians by the Nazis. As my father said, "It was important for the Germans to understand that war isn't simply about reading stories in the newspaper of foreigners getting killed." If the Germans were going to raze the allies' cities and kill civilians, it was also important that they, too, understand that the same could happen to them. This may be part of the problem in the Russia/Ukraine war. The typical Russian probably reads in Izvestia about the hundreds of civilians being killed in Ukrainian food markets (or sees it on TV), and thinks "That's nice. Good thing we're in no danger." 

When one's opponent repeatedly targets the civilian population and its structures, rather than military ones, they should perhaps be given one warning, then expect the same in return. That's probably the only way to change the minds of those who support tyrants. At a certain point, one has to stand up to bullies. 

[Keithambrose]

9 hours ago, PeterRS said:

There are still many who believe that the three massive overnight bombings of the city by American and UK aircraft towards the end of the war ,  fact a war crime. Many believed that Churchill intended to destroy what was a cultural landmark of major significance in retaliation for the Nazi bombing of Coventry earlier in the war. It was argued that there was little of military significance in the city apart from some railway junctions. 

I'm delighted you included Fabio Luisi's rendition of the Nozze di Figaro overture. He is one of the true major conductors of today. Some years ago he was hired by New York's Metropolitan Opera as the potential successor to James Levine. He would have been perfect. But the Met's GM, the perfectly dreadful Peter Gelb who should never have been given the job, decided as he has throughout his reign that he wanted someone younger.

SInce we are discussing music and opera in particular, one of the finest orchestras in the world is the Dresden Staatskapelle. I am thrilled to have heard it several times on tour in Taipei, the latest with Thielemann conducting Wagner and Brahms. In my earlier post I mentioned Carlos Kleiber. A notoriously difficult conductor for managements (who generally failed to realise that he was a deeply private, sensitive and insecure personality) although utterly adored by singers, he was hired by Deutsche Grammophon for a CD recording of Wagner's Tristan und Isolde in Dresden. He wanted a more youthful voice for isolde and chose the glorious Welsh soprano Dame Margaret Price, even though she could never have sung it in a full live performance. The result is magnificent. But Kleiber was unhappy (not unusual for him) and he ended up walking out of the recording before it was complete. He then threatened to sue DGG if they ever tried to release any of it. Fortunately for posterity, the engineers had been recording all the rehearsals as well as the 'takes'. In the end DGG did release the full opera and Kleiber did not sue. Amazingly the full opera is available on youtube.

Remarkably, although the accolades for Kleiber as the finest conductor of the 20th century continue, in his lifetime it is extraordinary to realise he only conducted 400 opera performances and less than 100 symphony concerts. Thankfully there are a few videos available, including this of Beethoven's 7th Symphony with Amsterdam's Concertgebouw Orchestra. Many regard it as the finest ever recorded. But even for those who would not dream of sitting through more than a few minutes, do tr\y and watch the first five. See how Kleiber is unike almost every other conductor. He is truly living that music. How I wish I could have seen and heard him conduct.

 

Carlos Kleiber conducted one of the greatest Opera performances  I have witnessed at Covent Garden, Othello. We heard it twice in one season for an odd reason. Domingo was to sing the role that year,  conducted by Kleiber, and in the same season,  Jon Vickers was to sing Tannhauser. Vickers had not sung the role of Tannhauser before, and during rehearsals he said he would not perform  the role, as Tannhauser was a Nazi! What happened,  therefore. was that he sang Othello instead, so 2 performances a few months apart, by two of the greatest tenors of the time. Personally,  I thought Vickers was marginally better, not just because he was a client  of my law firm! So Kleiber conducted Domingo, and Colin Davis, vickers. Interestingly,  Margaret Price sang Desdemona in one production, I think with Domingo.  My younger son was being taught trombone, by David Chandler, who played in the Orchestra  at Covent Garden,  and one parents' evening,  asked me to say what was the best performance I had heard at Covent Garden.  I said Othello, with Kleiber, and David  Chandler agreed. He said that I wouldn't  hear him again, there, as he wanted too many rehearsals,  and management  couldn't afford it!

 

 

[PeterRS]

5 hours ago, Keithambrose said:

1. Carlos Kleiber conducted one of the greatest Opera performances  I have witnessed at Covent Garden, Othello. We heard it twice in one season for an odd reason. Domingo was to sing the role that year,  conducted by Kleiber, and in the same season,  Jon Vickers was to sing Tannhauser. Vickers had not sung the role of Tannhauser before, and during rehearsals he said he would not perform  the role, as Tannhauser was a Nazi!

2. Interestingly,  Margaret Price sang Desdemona in one production.

3. . . .asked me to say what was the best performance I had heard at Covent Garden.  I said Othello, with Kleiber, and David  Chandler agreed. He said that I wouldn't  hear him again, there, as he wanted too many rehearsals,  and management  couldn't afford it!

1. I constantly kick myself that I could have attended one of the Kleiber/Domingo performances when La Scala visited Japan. The three-opera season also included one of my favourites, Verdi's Simon Boccanegra with a stellar cast led by Claudio Abbado. With ticket prices so expensive I could only attend one. At that time I was much less aware of Kleiber's brilliance. C'est la vie! I only saw Jon Vickers once and that was in the Royal Opera's Peter Grimes. A shattering performance I will always remember! Incidentally, another reason Vickers would not sing the role of Tannhauser was his very deep Christian faith. He believed the character was immoral!

2. I consider Dame Margaret Price had one of the greatest soprano voices of the century. It was sometimes called "liquid gold". And one of the saddest is that there is so little on vdo available. In addition to the full Kleiber Tristan there is this youtube audio of the Liebestod at the end just before she dies. Is there any better version? I believe not. When he was invoved in casting the recording, he always wanted his good friend Dame Margaret with whom he had not only worked with but knew well as both lived in Munich. DGG executives did not like the idea, but it was a masterstroke.

3. Very few people could understand Kleiber. But as I noted above, he was adored more than any other conductor by orchestral musicians and singers - and indeed those who attended his very few performances. It is thought that he was always trying to be as good as his conductor father Erich Kleiber whom be worshipped, and never felt he achieved that. Yet great though Erich was, his son outshone him. And it may have been that realisation that all but made him a reclusive figure during the last ten years of his life prior to his death aged 74.