War in Ukraine Developments

[PeterRS]

 

8 hours ago, Moses said:

Nobody likes Nazi here besides Nazi themselves. 

Before 2014, such people mostly either "accidentally died" or sat in prison.

You list nine Nazis and state nobody likes Nazis here! Odd how that photo you posted has at least 40 carrying Nazi flags. What happened to them?

"Accidentlly died", just like Putin critics Navalny, Lesin, Nemtsov, Berezovsky, Magnitsky, Markelov, Baburova, Estemirova, Politkovskaya, Shchekochikhin and others including the attempted assassination at Salisbury in England of the Soviet dissidents Sergei and Julia Skripal using the Novichok nerve agent. The BBC traced the poisoners directly to a flat in Moscow where the door was slammed in their face.

They had arrived in England at Gatwick Airport for just two days. In Moscow they later admitted the only place they wanted to visit during that time was Salisbury where the Skripals lived. No other sightseing? Why? Because, they said, it had a beautiful cathedral. Funny, surely, that there is the equally beautiful Winchester Cathedral just 40 kms away but it was of no intrest! That the poisoners did not wish to see anything else on their trip was a total joke! The Skripals were under medical care for months but both lived.The secret unit 29155 of the Rusian GRU under the command of General Andei Averyanov had organised the botched killing.

[floridarob]

Olddaddy’s split personalities are chaotic, harmless and fun....but at least they’re original.

Moses? He’s just a one-man spam bot programmed in Moscow......Debating Moses is like arguing with a Soviet history book that learned to type 🤷‍♂️

I might be a product of public education, so don’t expect Shakespeare— but at least it didn’t brainwash me into thinking war crimes look pretty in rose tint 🙏

[Moses]

3 hours ago, floridarob said:

Moses? He’s just a one-man spam bot programmed in Moscow......Debating Moses is like arguing with a Soviet history book that learned to type

When an opponent runs out of arguments, he starts discussing his opponent... nothing new.

[PeterRS]

7 hours ago, floridarob said:

Moses? He’s just a one-man spam bot programmed in Moscow......Debating Moses is like arguing with a Soviet history book that learned to type 

I suppose there is only so much you can counter facts by spouting Russian propaganda when much of that itself is nonsense. I note @Moses did not attempt to defend the two GRU officers who tried to poison the Skripals in Salisbury. That's no doubt because it is indefensible. The two Russians appeared on a Russian tv programme and had actually admitted to the Russian public the only reason they had decided to make a 2-day visit to the UK was because they wanted to see the famous Salisbury Cathedral. Naturally they did not say they had been ordered do so in order to murder the Skripals, but that is perfectly obvious to everyone.

[floridarob]

4 hours ago, Moses said:

When an opponent runs out of arguments, he starts discussing his opponent... nothing new.

I haven’t run out of arguments — I’ve run out of patience for recycled Kremlin fairytales.

At some point, it’s like debating with a broken tape recorder or even worse, Riobard 🙄

[Moses]

5 hours ago, PeterRS said:

I note @Moses did not attempt to defend the two GRU officers who tried to poison the Skripals in Salisbury.

I note nobody here "did not attempt to defend":

• Coup in Kiev in 2013/14
• Bombing of Luhansk by Kiev regime on June 2, 2014
• Ban on Russian language as second official
• Closure of Russian schools
• Closure of Russian medias, TV and radio
• Violation of the Minsk-1 agreement by Ukraine
• Violation of the Minsk-2 agreement by Ukraine

[Moses]

By the way: British proof "highly likely" still not confirmed by decision of any court... Strange...

[PeterRS]

6 hours ago, Moses said:

By the way: British proof "highly likely" still not confirmed by decision of any court... Strange...

It does not need to be "highly likely" or anything at all. The two GRU officers who made that two-day trip to poison the Skripals appeared on Russian TV - in Russia, that is - and stated, admittedly somewhat childishly, that their only purpose - stress "only purpose" - for making the trip was to see the wonderful Salisbury Cathedral. You would at least think that seasoned GRU officers and their superiors could have come up with some more believable excuse.

[Moses]

10 hours ago, PeterRS said:

The two GRU officers who made that two-day trip to poison the Skripals appeared on Russian TV - in Russia

If you said so, or yellow tabloid, or politician - it means zero. If court said so, then it may be fact. Unless court said so - it is speculation. Political speculation to demonize Russia.

There is no any proof, what visit of two "maybe GRU officers" and Sripal's case are linked. These "maybe officers" may had any mission from blowing up secret chemical laboratory in 15 miles from Salisbury to meeting with some Russian agents in the region. Their guilt isn't confirmed by any court. 

Just reminder: after poisoning of Livinenko by polonium, guilt of Lugovoy was confirmed by British court. After case with Skripal there is no court decision.

Russia had no reason to kill Skripal in the UK – unlike Litvinenko, who fled to the UK, Skripal spent almost 6 years in Russian prisons before leaving Russia legally in a prisoner swap with the UK. It is too complicated for Russia to wait 6 years and then release him, and then wait another 8 years to hunt him in a foreign country, rather than simply causing an “accident” in a Russian prison. Occam’s razor says no.

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, Moses said:

If you said so, or yellow tabloid, or politician - it means zero. If court said so, then it may be fact. Unless court said so - it is speculation. Political speculation to demonize Russia.

There you go again! It was LIVE PUBLIC TELEVISION in RUSSIA! That does not need a court. The two GRU officers were named and interviewed and STATED PUBLICLY they were only in the UK for 2 days to see Salisbury Cathedral. it is a matter of public record in RUSSIA! 

An interview on Russian television with suspects in the Salisbury poisonings was “shocking” and “welcome”, a senior police officer has said.

Alexander Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov denied being the culprits and said they were tourists who wanted to visit Salisbury Cathedral, during the interview on RT in September 2018.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/salisbury-alexander-petrov-sergei-skripal-salisbury-cathedral-gru-b2650559.html

[Moses]

2 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

It was LIVE PUBLIC TELESISION in RUSSIA!

In "live television in Russia" they told what they were in Salisbury as tourists.

And UK has NO any proof of any other facts. I'm sure you know that.

To be officer of secret service isn't criminal. Otherwise half of staff of UK embassy in Moscow should be arrested.

[PeterRS]

2 minutes ago, Moses said:

In "live television in Russia" they told what they were in Salisbury as tourists.

And UK has NO any proof of any other facts. I'm sure you know that.

Of course there is proof! Plenty of it. Only you refuse to face facts!

[Moses]

1 hour ago, PeterRS said:

Of course there is proof!

If here is proof of their guilty, why then there is no court decision?

For me British version of case is just political speculation.

Skripal was arrested in 2004, court decision issued in 2006. Only in 2010 he was exchanged. Russia had pretty much time to make his "hearth attack" in the prison - 6 years.

After exchange he lived in UK 8 years. There was no reason for Russia to wait 8 years.

My version: Skripal was "discharged" by MI5 or MI6 after he told all what he knew and became useless, while UK was in need "to pay" to Russia for extermination of Litvinenko by polonium right in the center of London, after which UK secret services lost face. British laboratory which works with Novichok is located just in 15 miles from Salisbury. It was good opportunity to discharge useless double agent and to make troubles to Russians, and MI5 or MI6 used it. Unfortunately for them Skripal survived.

P.S. Sutyagin, who was swapped together with Skripal in 2010, still living in UK and even working for UK and NATO.

P.P.S. In early October 2018, British journalist Mark Urban published a book, The Skripal File, which, based on several interviews with Skripal himself, indicated that Skripal supported Russia's annexation of Crimea and Putin's policy towards Ukraine, and did not believe that Russia had poisoned him.

https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/mark-urban/the-skripal-files/9781529006926

[PeterRS]

12 hours ago, Moses said:

1) If here is proof of their guilty, why then there is no court decision?

2) In early October 2018, British journalist Mark Urban published a book, The Skripal File, which, based on several interviews with Skripal himself, indicated that Skripal . . . did not believe that Russia had poisoned him.

1) You really do ask the most ridiculous questions when you already know the answers! The British Police have plenty of evidence to charge the two GRU operatives and ensure a British court would find them guilty, but Russia does not extradite its nationals to face trial in other countries. Therefore you know perfectly well they cannot be convicted in a court of law! Your version of what "might" have happened is utter nonsense,. Surely you cannot be that simple-minded?

2) You also state a lie. Mark Urban's book was published on October 2 2018. As the author himself claims, the entire book was written on the basis of interviews long before the attempted murder by the Russians and deals with the "new" spy war between the west and Russia. Further, it usually takes 9 months at least for a book to be published after submission of the manuscript. Even though the book was clearly rushed  into print, at no point in the book does Skripal ever state "he did not believe that Russia had poisoned him." Indeed Urban never spoke to Skripal after the poisoning. Further, due to the date of pubication, it is unable to mention much that follows below. The timing does not work! @Moses once again shows his ignorance and ventures into very obvious untruths.

The history of the attempted murder of Skripal is in itself quite fascinating and was clearly a massive embasrrassment to the Kremlin and Putin. Let's look closely at the timeline.

March 2018

Thursday 1: Julia Skripal flies from Russia to London to visit her father, a former Russian spy living in Salisbury, England.

Friday 2: Two GRU agents under false names Alexander Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov arrive at Gatwick Airport from Moscow at 16:42 hours. They book into the City Stay Hotel in East London for two nights. The room is later found to have traces of Novichok a deadly nerve agent manufactured in the south of Russia.

Saturday 3: At 11:45 the two Russians board a train from Waterloo Station - destination Salisbury. In those days that would have taken fractionally less than 2 hours. CCTV footage shows them in Salisbury at 14:25. On 'live' Russian TV following their public exposure by the British, the two Russians stated they were "merely tourists" and travelled to Salisbury on the recommendatiom of friends. "Our friends had been suggesting for a long time that we visit this wonderful town," Mr Petrov said. They claimed they only stayed an hour in Salisbury on Saturday 3 March because of the snowy weather conditions, but returned early on Sunday 4 March to visit the sights. Clearly the March 3 visit had nothing to do with snow. It was a reconnaisance mission.

Sunday 4: At 11:58 the Russians are seen on CCTV close to the Skripal's home. Following drinks at The Mill pub before visiting a Zizzi restaurant, at 16:15 a member of the public calls the police about a man and a woman lying hunched on a bench near the main car park. The couple are Sergei and Julia Skripal. In hospital, they are supsected of having been poisoned. At 13:50 the Russians are seen on CCTV heading towards Salisbury train station. What? Perhaps @Moses can now tell us what happened to all the sighseeing they had planned? On their return to London they immediately headed for Heathrow airport. At 19:28 they boarded a plane for Moscow.

Wednesday 7: The Police believe the Skripals were poisoned by a nerve agent. The case becomes a murder investigation.

Thursday 8: One of the senior police officers who had visited the Skripal's home is in a serous condition after being exposed to the nerve agent,

Monday 12: Prime Minister Theresa May confirms in parliament that the poison was the nerve agent Novichok, made solely in Russia. Russia is given an ultimatum to explain why Novichok was found on British soil.

Wednesday 14: Russia fails to meet the dealine. Britain expels 23 Russian diplomats.

Wednesday 28: 27 more countries expel more than 140 Russian diplomats after hearing evidence from the UK.

4 June: British Counter-Terrorism Assistant Commissioner reveals 2,300 objects have been recovered from the Salisbury investigation, adding 4,000 hours of CCTV footage have been examined.

4 and 5 July: Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess, two more British subjects living close to Salisbury, are revealed to be in critical condition following exposure to Novichok. Dawn Sturgess a mother of three dies as a result on 8 July.

14 July: Police find a Nina Ricci perfume perfume bottle in Mr. Rowley's home which contains Novichok. Salisbury MP John Glen confirms the couple were in the habit of "looking into bins". The method used to poison the Skripals was spraying Novichok from the perfume bottle on to their front door handle and then discarding it.

 19 July: Police confirm they are certain they have identified who brought the Novichok into the UK. The UK soon adds new sanctions on Rusia.

4 September: The world's chemical weapons watchdog confirms the Novichok that killed Ms. Sturgess was identical to that used on the Skripals.

5 September: Scotland Yard confirms it now has sufficient evidence to charge two Russian nationals Alexander Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov over the Salisbury poisonings. The charges include conspiracy to murder, attempted murder, the use and possession of Novichok contrary to the Chemical Weapons Act and causing grievous bodily harm with intent.

Later in September: The two Russians appear on Russian State TV in what is obviously a stage-managed affair filled with iies. The flaws in the Russians argument are massive. Perhaps @Moses can explain the following -

1. What is the average salary of a member of the GRU and how long would it take to save up enough to purchase two round trip tickets to London on scheduled flights flying into and out of the two different London airports?  They cannot therefore have been cheaper charter flights.

2. Having purchased airfares and they were on holiday, why only two nights?

3. They were in Salisbury for around 3 hours in total. Sightseeing? Total B/S. And why Salisbury, a city not known for its sights apart from the Cathedral? Why not Winchester which is close by? Since they were in London, why not St. Pauls Cathedral? Why not the main Canterbury Cathedral? Why not the magnificent Ely Cathedral near Cambridge? The answer is simple. The Skripals Iived in Salisbury and Putin wanted them executed.

4. They claimed on Russian television that men do not carry ladies' perfume. That's a real joke since one of the benefits of flying is duty free shopping at which they could have purchased perfume for their wives and/or girlfriends. 

These are all facts - not some made-up nonsense by @Moses. I will finish with more lurid background of Russia targetting Skripal. Skripal was a former Russian Military Officer. In December 2004 he was arrested outside his house and later convicted of high treason due to espionage for a foreign government. In 2010 he was swapped for Russians in jail in Britain. President Medvedev, during the four years Putin had to step down as President, then pardoned Skripal. Putin was mad and branded him a "traitor". Skripal's wife, son and older brother had all died in Russia in mysterious circumstances. Skripal was an ambarrassment to Putin who wanted him to suffer the same fate.

But Putin's henchmen botched the job. I wonder if they are still alive.

[Moses]

2 hours ago, PeterRS said:

1) You really do ask the most ridiculous questions when you already know the answers! The British Police have plenty of evidence to charge the two GRU operatives and ensure a British court would find them guilty, but Russia does not extradite its nationals to face trial in other countries. Therefore you know perfectly well they cannot be convicted in a court of law! Your version of what "might" have happened is utter nonsense,. Surely you cannot be that simple-minded?

So, for Litvinenko's case they can, and for Skripal's they can't?

Why?

I give you answer: they know - they have no proof. They have no one direct evidence. 2 agents of GRU walking by streets of Salisbury - all their evidence. We already know, what to be agent of secret service isn't crime. And to walk by streets of Salisbury isn't crime as well.

 

2 hours ago, PeterRS said:

President Medvedev, during the four years Putin had to step down as President, then pardoned Skripal.

That's bullshit: Skripal never been pardoned. He was just swapped.

And now next question: Why UK doesn't have direct evidence? Why do they prove it with cameras from ATMs and stores?

Skripal was under state protection, which means that his home should have been under constant surveillance by agents and cameras. How did it happen that no one recorded the fact of the crime itself - the application of poison to the door knob?

 

[PeterRS]

13 minutes ago, Moses said:

So, for Litvinenko's case they can, and for Skripal's they can't?

Why?

I give you answer: they know - they have no proof.

 

The usual Soviet-syle propaganda. I provided a lot of proof in my post above. You have refuted absolutely none of it other than to lie about what is written in Mark Urban's book! You can refute that by showing here the relevant page in that book where you claim that Skripal himself does not agree that it was the Russians who poisoned him. I have countered that argument. You have not. Skripal never said that!

In fact you counter not one of my points! So much for "proof"! You don't even confirm that the Russian GRU staffers who poisoned Skripal actually said - in other words they told the Russian public, apart from @Moses apparently - on Russian TV that they did in fact visit Salisbury. But they said it was for sightseeing. For all of three hours? You agree? Total B/S.

[Moses]

You gave no one answer to my question since first mention of Skripal in this thread:

• Why did Russia have to wait 14 years? It would have been much easier to eliminate Skripal on its own territory, in prison.
• Why was there no trial and no verdict? The absence of the accused on the territory of the country has never prevented the verdict from being passed, and the Litvinenko case is proof of this.
• Why was Skripal not properly guarded and Britain did not have a single piece of direct evidence?

[PeterRS]

17 minutes ago, Moses said:

You gave no one answer to my question since first mention of Skripal in this thread:

• Why did Russia have to wait 14 years? It would have been much easier to eliminate Skripal on its own territory, in prison.
• Why was there no trial and no verdict? The absence of the accused on the territory of the country has never prevented the verdict from being passed, and the Litvinenko case is proof of this.
• Why was Skripal not properly guarded and Britain did not have a single piece of direct evidence?

You realise you are digging yourself into a much deeper hole? Just give it up. You have zero argument, you make ridiculous unverifiable points and those you do make are basically nonsense in regard to the Skripal case.

[Moses]

5 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

You have zero argument, you make ridiculous unverifiable points and those you do make are basically nonsense in regard to the Skripal case.

Looks like you have no answers to my questions. It was expected. Occam's razor, dear.

And British "highly likely" bullshit without court verdict, without single direct evidence. Absence of direct evidence is real reason why after 7 years there is still no trial and verdict in this case.

Pure speculations.

[PeterRS]

15 minutes ago, Moses said:

Looks like you have no answers to my questions. It was expected. Occam's razor, dear.

And British "highly likely" bullshit without court verdict, without single direct evidence. Absence of direct evidence is real reason why after 7 years there is still no trial and verdict in this case.

Pure speculations.

Utter rubbish! Russian propaganda machine working overtime, clearly. Incidentally, you should get your facts more straight if you are going to find anyone to believe the nonsense you spout about Russian spies.

You state the Litvinenko case again st the agent who poisoned his tea was tried in a court of law. Absolute lie! His murder by the Rurrians was the subject of a Public Inquiry which is a very, very different issue. You also ask why the Skripal case was not subject to a similar "trial". The Skripal case and the Novichok affair was also the subject of a Public Inquiry. End of Discussion!

[Moses]

10 minutes ago, PeterRS said:

Utter rubbish! Russian propaganda machine working overtime, clearly. Incidentally, you should get your facts more straight if you are going to find anyone to believe the nonsense you spout about Russian spies.

You state the Litvinenko case again st the agent who poisoned his tea was tried in a court of law. Absolute lie! His murder by the Rurrians was the subject of a Public Inquiry which is a very, very different issue. You also ask why the Skripal case was not subject to a similar "trial". The Skripal case and the Novichok affair was also the subject of a Public Inquiry. End of Discussion!

So, you don't deny, what UK has no one, even single direct evidence?

So, you haven't any answer why Russia made is on so complicated way: waited 14 years and then suddenly risks 2 agents and uses poison on foreign territory instead of creating "accident" on own territory. 

By the way: mother of Skripal died in 2021. Wanna as well accuse Russia, as you did in speculation about death of his wife on British land?

[PeterRS]

5 hours ago, Moses said:

So, you don't deny, what UK has no one, even single direct evidence.

Are you that simple-minded? I have quoted a mountain of evidence giving dates, times, locations, statements made by the GRU agents on Russian Television - and you merely make up an utterly ridiculous propaganda story.

I will aswer one point, though, As you know extremely well - and like everything else you fail to acknowledge it, agents are often held with a view to an exchange of spies. That has happened throughout the history of the USSR and carried on by Russia. Why would it seek to execute Skripal in Russia when it would have a dead man instead of a living exchange spy?

And when are you going to answer any of the mutifold and very detailed questions I have asked? Obviously never because you are Putin's proagandist on this Board. But your ridiculous story of how the Skripals were poisoned merely goes to show you have no desire to discuss the truth. You are merely Putin's propaganda machine.

[Moses]

7 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Are you that simple-minded? I have quoted a mountain of evidence giving dates, times, locations, statements made by the GRU agents on Russian Television - and you merely make up an utterly ridiculous propaganda story.

Dear, "direct evidence" are fingerprints of agents on door or door knob, photos/videos of agents adding poison on knob. Proof of their action.

Photos of agents on streets isn't evidence at all. Because walking by city streets isn't crime.

[PeterRS]

4 hours ago, Moses said:

Dear, "direct evidence" are fingerprints of agents on door or door knob, photos/videos of agents adding poison on knob. Proof of their action.

Photos of agents on streets isn't evidence at all. Because walking by city streets isn't crime.

You still fail to answer my specific questions. Since the alleged purpose of sightseeing in Salisbury (ONLY Salisbury as they confirmed on Russian TV) why did they spend just three hours in the city - less, actually, since they walked rather than take taxis - before making a quick get away back to Moscow?

But you are Putin's propagandist on this Board and your deflections and lies will continue.

[PeterRS]

21 hours ago, Moses said:

That's bullshit: Skripal never been pardoned. He was just swapped.

Yet again you lie big time. Why, when the truth is obvious? So much for your bullshit!!

July 9 2010 Sputnik News/RIA Novosti - Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has signed a decree on pardoning four individuals imprisoned in Russia for alleged work for Western intelligence agencies, the Kremlin press service said on Friday.

The pardoned individuals are Alexander Zaporozhsky, Gennady Vasilenko, Sergei Skripal and Igor Sutyagin.

https://sputnikglobe.com/20100708/159742682.html

For your information, Sputnik News is owned by the Russian Government!

July 9, 2010 12:17 PM GMT+7  Updated July 9, 2010

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has pardoned four people jailed for passing secrets to the West as part of a Cold War-style spy swap with the United States, local news agencies reported on Friday. Medvedev signed a decree to pardon Alexander Zaporozhsky, Gennady Vasilenko, Igor Sutyagin and Sergei Skripal, who are all serving prison terms for espionage, his spokeswoman Natalya Timakova was quoted by Russia's state RIA news agency as saying.

 

For your further information, Natalya Timakova was Press Secretary to Medvedev from 2008 to 2016. She has the federal state civiian rank of 1st class State Councillor of the Russian Federation, as I am sure you should know well! Quit the bullshit @Moses. Your lies have been found out too often for anyone to believe anything you write.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/uk/russias-medvedev-pardons-four-jailed-spies-report-idUSTRE6680SH/