Who are the Terrorists????

[Guest shebavon]

Whilst I generally agree, I have to point out that your comment about comparison to Iraq and Kosovo is at best misleading. This comment was made by Israel's Army Chief Legal Officer - not by the writer. It is therefore totally biased.

 

 

As you rightly say, 'what a mess.' But that mess creates more problems for Israel, as the article points out in its first paragraphs.

 

"As in Israel

[Guest slackersam]

Didn't Lebanon fire a couple rockets last week?

[Guest shebavon]

Didn't Lebanon fire a couple rockets last week?

Yes they did, but Hezbollah publicly proclaimed that they were not their missiles launched. Rather a rogue launching.

 

Hezbollah could just as easily created a second front if they felt it was in their best interest.

 

It appears that they, Egypt, as well as the Israeli and W. Bank Palestinians are not in support of the Hamas government.

[Guest slackersam]

Let's all thank God, Allah Jehova and Kali that Egypt isn't getting involved.

[Guest shebavon]

Let's all thank God, Allah Jehova and Kali that Egypt isn't getting involved.

Amazing, they signed peace treaty about 35 years ago, and no wars since.

[Guest slackersam]

A rare thing in the middle east.

[KhorTose]

Today Hamas also agreed to a cease fire in Gaza. Maybe, just maybe they have got so tired of killing each other we may look for some kind of peace. However, I have been accused of being an optimist before, and it may be true this time.

[Guest shebavon]

Today Hamas also agreed to a cease fire in Gaza. Maybe, just maybe they have got so tired of killing each other we may look for some kind of peace. However, I have been accused of being an optimist before, and it may be true this time.

I consider myself an optimist as well, but if I was to bet on this one, I would say they are both taking time to reload. I hope I'm wrong though.

[Guest slackersam]

Agreed.

[Guest fountainhall]

Perhaps you believe the Israeli army can walk on water. The launch sites are mobile launched. . . How many Israeli lives do you think they should have risked? What would the price of failure have been assessed at?

 

The army sometimes gives the impression it can . I realise the launch sites are mobile and probably change position several times a day. But throughout Israel's history the country's security services have shown an amazing ability to strike at its foes in other countries (as shown in Steven Spielberg's "Munich", for example). I cannot believe it does not have a fairly strong under cover presence on the ground in Gaza.

 

But that's speculation on my part. As to how many Israeli lives should be risked? I don't know how to answer that because I am not part of the Israeli policy making apparatus. I believe their casualties in the 'war' so far are less than 20. The Palestinian losses are over 1,000 of which 40% + were women and children. No matter why and how the missiles are launched, I believe very strongly that slaughter on such a scale can not be justified.

 

I also believe, as suggested in the interesting NYT article you posted, that Israel's continuous use over the years of overwhelming force on its neighbours ultimately turns most of the world against it. Maybe the the country could tolerate that position as long as the US backed it to the tune of many billions of dollars per year. According to the logic of the rise and fall of the great powers throughout history, in the not too distant future the US will no longer be the dominant power in the world. I believe it will do Israel a power of good to start listening to world opinion for a change.

[Guest MonkeySee]

Many people in the world think George Bush is a terrorist and criminal, as can be seen from the following article.

 

"You are a liar and a war criminal! Farewell!" blurted Muhammad al-Salami, a professor in Baghdad University, infuriated by the TV footage of the outgoing U.S. President George W. Bush who was giving a farewell speech after eight years in office.

 

Others in the professor's office simply sneered or just kept silence.

 

"Every time when I see Bush on TV, I get angry. He was behind hundreds of thousands of crimes against Iraqi people during the past eight years of his ruling," said al-Salami.

 

Bush waged a global War on Terrorism after 9.11 incident, and asserted that an "axis of evil," consisting of North Korea, Iran, and Iraq was "arming to threaten the peace of the world."

 

He launched the war with an invasion of Iraq on March 20, 2003,which led to the quick defeat and the eventual execution of Saddam Hussein.

 

More than 600,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed in the U.S.-led war. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) also said two million Iraqis had fled to neighboring countries.

 

Full story at: http://english.people.com.cn/90001/90777/90854/6576570.html

 

[Guest slackersam]

It's too bad that Obama doesn't seem willing to investigate the Bush Administration.

[Guest fountainhall]

This from the BBC's website this morning.

 

The worst-hit areas in the Gaza Strip after Israel's three-week offensive look as if they have been hit by a strong earthquake, aid agencies say. Correspondents in Gaza City say entire neighbourhoods have been flattened and bodies are still being recovered. The United Nations says some 50,800 Palestinians are now homeless and 400,000 are without running water.

 

I think this reinforces my point about the use of vastly overwhelming force.

[Bob]

Our Bushie proudly proclaims that somehow by his strong actions he has prevented another terrorist attack here in the US during the last 7 years (a rather facetious argument, of course, almost like me arguing that my humming "Blue Moon" for the last decade has prevented an alien attack - see, it works!). But at what cost? A trillion dollars or more, maybe a couple of hundred thousand dead, a substantial loss of civil liberties, etc. And the net result? Well, probably a million or more people in the world now that would like to blow the shit out of us.

 

So too, the Israelis. By killing a few hundred Hamas fighters (and many more innocent civilians), they have probably made hundreds of thousands of more enemies in the Arab world that will gladly try to blow the shit out of them in the future. What a great victory (not).

 

Nobody seems to learn anything from history.

[Guest fountainhall]

There a similar story from Victorian England. A businessman commuting to London by train each morning noticed that one of those in the compartment always rolled up a page of his newspaper and threw it out of the window. Eventually, the businessman decided to put aside natural English reserve and ask what the man was doing.

 

"I throw newspaper balls out of the window to keep away the elephants."

 

"But we don't have elephants in England," came the reply.

 

"Exactly. You see how successful it is!"

 

That has always been the weak link in Bush's argument. It's hot air, impossible to prove!

[KhorTose]

So too, the Israelis. By killing a few hundred Hamas fighters (and many more innocent civilians), they have probably made hundreds of thousands of more enemies in the Arab world that will gladly try to blow the shit out of them in the future. What a great victory (not).

Nobody seems to learn anything from history.

 

I would even say it was more basic then a history lesson. If someone wrongs you and causes you to hate so bad that you become just like what you hated to begin with, who has won?

 

The Jews so hated what happened to them during WWII at the hands of the Nazis, that they have allowed themselves to become Nazi-like themselves. That they have allowed this to happen to them, is one of the saddest chapters in the long history of a great people.

[Guest slackersam]

As of noon today in D.C. it will be a moot point.

[Guest shebavon]

I would even say it was more basic then a history lesson. If someone wrongs you and causes you to hate so bad that you become just like what you hated to begin with, who has won?

 

The Jews so hated what happened to them during WWII at the hands of the Nazis, that they have allowed themselves to become Nazi-like themselves. That they have allowed this to happen to them, is one of the saddest chapters in the long history of a great people.

Please explain how the actions of the Israeli's is Nazi-like? What gives you the right to attack Jews as if Judaism is a monolith. To me it sounds kind of Anti-Semitic on your part to lump all Jews together.

 

Where are the death camps, gas chambers, forced sterilization of women, labor camps?

 

Russia recently had a similar situation in a breakaway province of Georgia, but I did not hear Nazi-like bandied about. The US in Iraq, is that somehow Nazi-like?

 

Those of you who have been criticizing Israel fail to answer the basic questions. How many missiles should you absorb before you act to stop the aggression against your civilian populations? What do you do about the weapons being hidden amongst the civilian populations? Just how do you go about urban warfare, because that is where the enemy is hiding. In the civilian populations using them as shields.

 

The West Bank chose the Palestinian Authority in a move towards peace. Too bad the Gazans brought this on themselves through choosing Hamas. Elections have consequences. And so does war.

 

Palestinian choices since WW1. Back the Ottoman Empire, Back the Nazi's, lost wars in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973. Backed Iraq in both wars.

 

 

[Guest slackersam]

The Israelis forced people out of their homes so that they could have their own settlements - and they did so to a single ethnic and religious group, creating tons of Palestinian refugees. They blatantly stole people's lands and homes. That's what is Nazi like - i.e. not all Nazi references refer to death camps, they can also refer to territorial issues.

 

My guess is that if they didn't steal land and property and gave people the right of return (and backed to pre 1967 borders) they wouldn't be having the problems they are having now.

 

And it's bullshit to tell people they should have elections and then bomb them when they don't elect people you like.

[Guest shebavon]

My guess is that if they didn't steal land and property and gave people the right of return (and backed to pre 1967 borders) they wouldn't be having the problems they are having now. "

Israel already gave back the Sinai and has had a lasting peace with the Egyptians. Better relations exist with the W. Bank Palestinians who have not been lobbing missiles at either the Israeli civilian or military population. Pretty much 90% of the land taken after 67 has been returned, and all of Gaza.

 

Perhaps when there are representatives of Gaza ready for a serious discussion of peace, talks will get serious.

 

My guess is that even if Israel agreed to pre 67 borders, that would not be enough to Hamas whose charter says No Israel, we want it all. PLO changed their charter.

 

"And it's bullshit to tell people they should have elections and then bomb them when they don't elect people you like.[/quote

 

The reason Israel bombed Gaza was not because they did not like the elected government, it was because that government (Hamas) was lobbing missiles at the Israeli civilian population.

 

"The Israelis forced people out of their homes so that they could have their own settlements - and they did so to a single ethnic and religious group, creating tons of Palestinian refugees. They blatantly stole people's lands and homes. That's what is Nazi like - i.e. not all Nazi references refer to death camps, they can also refer to territorial issues. "

 

That is not Nazi-like, it has gone on throughout history. It is military reality, has happened on all continents, including our own seizure of lands from Native Americans, just 150 years ago.

 

It may not be right, but that is what happens when borders are arbitrarily drawn, and subject to wars and occupations. Sometimes the justification is greed, and sometime it is to improve security situations.

[Guest slackersam]

You don't see the connection between forcing hundreds of thousands of arabs out of land they've lived in for generations and arabs lobbing missles at Israel?

 

If people stole my home I'd try to kill them too.

[Guest shebavon]

You don't see the connection between forcing hundreds of thousands of arabs out of land they've lived in for generations and arabs lobbing missles at Israel?

 

If people stole my home I'd try to kill them too.

After the Arab attack on Israel in 1948, there were forced population exchanges on both sides. Even after things settled down, the Jewish populations of Iraq,Egypt, Jordan, Libya, Sudan to name a few countries, were expelled though their families lived there for generations.

 

Israel decided to absorb as many as possible.

 

The Arab states decided to leave the Palestinians to fester in UN basket case camps.

[KhorTose]

Please explain how the actions of the Israeli's is Nazi-like? What gives you the right to attack Jews as if Judaism is a monolith. To me it sounds kind of Anti-Semitic on your part to lump all Jews together.

 

Shebavon, sorry I am going to have to steal a quote that Wesely uses on another Web site.

 

I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

- Robert McCloskey

 

Lack of sleep when I wrote this is my only excuse, and I sincerely apologize if I have offended you with my, less then specific and very poor choice of words. However, I will stand by the following choice of words.

 

The majority of the "Jews of Israel" have become Nazi-like. As to the why I said that it would take up pages and you already know most of it. Suffice to say the following:

1. I did not like the Irgun's (Etzel) actions at Deir Yassin in 1948.

2. Ben Gurion is on record from 1936 on as saying Israel's borders should be the biblical borders.

3. The deliberate attack on the Liberty in 1967. (I was in the Army Security Agency at the time, and yes, the attack was deliberate.

4. There is justification for Attacking Egypt in 1967, but not Syria and Jordon. They were provoked by Israel. Dylan himself is on record as stating this.

5. The seizure of homes and land in the West Bank from the Palestinians

6. The building of settlements on that land by right wing religious "god is on our side settlers". It is okay to be the chosen people, but not to act like other people are inferior and of no consequence.

7. Sixty years of defying UN mandates.

 

These are just a very few of the high points. I could spend some time and give you many other points and quotes, some from Israelis and American Jews who agree with my Nazi-like assessment, but as I said earlier, you know most of this. I have been reading you post and you are to well read and informed not to know there is great dissent inside the Jewish community as a whole, and inside Israel specifically. I am not the first to make this comparison and it is not only Gentiles or Arabs saying this. Come on now.

[Guest fountainhall]

The Jews so hated what happened to them during WWII at the hands of the Nazis, that they have allowed themselves to become Nazi-like themselves.

 

I agree this is an unfortunate allegation and I see Khortose has apologised to shebavon. I believe it is wholly understandable that the Jewish race - indeed all humanity - should do all possible to ensure it does not happen again. Sadly, as we have seen in many countries including Ruanda and Cambodia, to take 2 of the most extreme, the world has not learned and genocide continues sometimes on a monstrous scale while the world stands by and watches.

 

Yet, perhaps because the Jews suffered so much under the Nazis, I am always surprised that the Israel government is so insensitive to the suffering it causes other peoples, namely the Palestinians. shebavon you have asked the question many times -

 

How many missiles should you absorb before you act to stop the aggression against your civilian populations?

 

Surely the more pertinent question is

 

"Why are the rockets being fired in the first place?"

 

It is precisely because Israel has done little to try and live at peace with its neighbours. Indeed, it has, through various actions, incited them - deliberately, perhaps - so as to "justify" strong military action. Witness Ariel Sharon's war crimes for the Qibya massacre and massacres in the camps at Sabrah and Shatila. Witness that same Sharon deliberately provoking retaliation by his high profile visit to the Temple Mount complex in 2000. No doubt you will argue that Sharon had every right to visit the site. But everyone knows that for every action there is a reaction. That warmonger making the visit accompanied by 1,000 law enforcement officers had but one outcome and I am certain he knew it - the intifada.

 

Re the recent war, the secretary general of the United Nations visited Gaza yesterday and announced he was "shocked and heartbroken" by the scale of the destruction.

 

As I have stated before, like it or not world opinion is swinging against Israel precisely because it provokes and then uses military tactics that result in monstrous destruction of life and property which bears little relation to the reason for such retaliation.

 

What especially saddens me is that when I was a student, I and most of my contemporaries were very pro-Israel. Many went to work in kibbutz during the summer vacations. We felt it was important that Israel not only exist, but thrive. Now I deplore the country's leadership and I totally fail to believe what it says about wanting to live in peace with its neighbours.

[Bob]

I'll fully grant that the Israeli government is responsible for overreacting and causing too many civilian casualties and that the Israeli government for far too long has acted terribly and stupidly towards the Palestinian people; however, to use that background as some type of cleansing cover for the intentional attacking and murder of civilians by some of the Palestinian factions is way beyond me.

Intentionally attacking and killing civilians is reprehensible and a war crime - regardless of who's doing it. And one side doing it is no justification whatsoever for the other side doing it. At least that's my view.

 

Most Palestinians and Israelis are decent people; however, some on both sides are no more than murdering thugs and idiots who cause nothing but terrible effects on the rest of their own countrymen.

Rather sad and it's absolutely pathetic that neither side seems able to engage in any honest dialogue and compromise to craft a fair solution. That's what true leaders should do and just maybe neither side has any such leaders (and/or that the rabid element of each side has had the ability to drown them out).