Ten out of Ten babies say NO to circumcision

[ChristianPFC]

I just found this video "Ten out of Ten babies say NO to circumcision"

 

 

via this website http://www.circumcision.org/index.html

[Rogie]

Circumcision for non-religious reasons is controversial, and seems to be questioned rather more forcefully in certain quarters these days.

 

It seems reasonable to me to postpone circumcision until the boy or young man is able to give his consent.

 

Assuming a sensible policy is adopted, in time circumcisions for secular reasons will become less common.

[Guest thaiworthy]

I just found this video "Ten out of Ten babies say NO to circumcision"

I can find videos, too. The anti-circumscision groups invariably trot out their own personal "chamber of horror" vids whenever they want to make an emotional plea, generally regarding the rights of infants who might not want this to have happened when they grow up. However, I believe the men making this complaint are in the minority.

 

Here's a video that explains why circumcision overweighs the rights of a newborn, in my view.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs9d5IGLLLU

[Guest fountainhall]

I don't want to get into any pro-circumcision/anti-circumcision debate - especially one about medical reasons. But I am curious about one aspect of the operation. Why did two of the world's religions decide that lopping of the foreskin of a penis became essential to, or a right of passage towards, manhood? Indeed, as essential to be a member of those religions as it is to learn the essence of Torah or the Koran?

 

Why the penis? Why not part of a little finger, like the yakuza do? Why not put, say, a small tattoo on the foreskin instead? Why was it common during the ancient Egyptian Empire, yet the ancient Greeks all but abhorred the practice?

[ChristianPFC]

Circumcision for non-religious reasons is controversial...in time circumcisions for secular reasons will become less common.

As an atheist I see no reason why members of whichever relegion have the protection of the state. It makes me cringe when in Germany freedom of religion is weighed agains animal protection laws, when Muslims want to slaughter cattle in the traditional way.

 

It seems there are as many sites on the internet promoting circumcision as there are against circumcision. And I have to admit that my aversion against circumcision has religious traits: I believe in reasons against circumcision, and I don't believe in reasons for circumcision (other then acute medical reasons).

 

What surprises me is that while female circumcision (with far greater disadvantages for the girls/women than male circumcision for men) is now outlawed worldwide (but still practiced in some areas), there are open support groups for male circumcision in civilized countries.

 

The Yakuza cut of pieces of their finger when they make a mistake in their organization as an adult, so you can't compare this to circumcision.

 

But it could be worse. There are religious minorities who did or still do cut off even more:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_%28South_Asia%29

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoptsy

[Guest]

Why the penis? Why not part of a little finger, like the yakuza do? Why not put, say, a small tattoo on the foreskin instead? Why was it common during the ancient Egyptian Empire, yet the ancient Greeks all but abhorred the practice?

Maybe the Greeks were the ones who knew what they were doing ? After all, when they were having all that gay sex, why risk spoiling it by hopping off parts of their anatomy?

 

Religion seems to be an excuse for too many behaviours which are otherwise unacceptable.

[Rogie]

But it could be worse. There are religious minorities who did or still do cut off even more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skoptsy

Having checked out that link, I have to say the Skoptsy sect must have been one of the strangest of all time. Why on earth would any sect hell-bent on multiplying, cut off the organ of procreation itself? It does make you wonder what it was about Russian society in the 19th and early 20th centuries that such a sect could even be contemplated, let alone flourish. Very strange people the Russians . . .

[Guest fountainhall]

A short story to lighten the subject!

 

Three Holy Men & A Bear

 

A Priest, a Pentecostal Preacher, and a Rabbi all served as Chaplains to the students of Northern Michigan University in Marquette.

 

They would get together two or three times a week for coffee and talk shop. One day, someone made the comment that preaching to people isn't really all that hard. A real challenge would be to preach to a bear.

 

One thing led to another and they decided to do an Experiment. They would all go out into the woods, find a bear, preach to it, and attempt to convert it.

 

Seven days later, they're all together to discuss their experience.

 

Father Flannery, who has his arm in a sling, is on crutches, and has various bandages on his body and limbs, goes first. "Well," he says, "I went into the woods to find a bear. And when I found him I began to read to him from the Catechism. Well, that bear wanted nothing to do with me and began to slap me around. So I quickly grabbed my holy water, sprinkled him and, Holy Mary Mother of God, he became as gentle as a lamb. The Bishop is coming out next week to give him First Communion and Confirmation."

 

Reverend Bob spoke next. He was in a wheelchair, with an IV drip in his arm, and both legs in casts. In his best fire and brimstone oratory he claimed, "WELL, brothers, you KNOW that we don't sprinkle! I went out and I FOUND a bear. And then I began to read to my bear from God's HOLY WORD!

 

But that bear wanted nothing to do with me. So I took HOLD of him and we began to wrestle. We wrestled down one hill, UP another and DOWN another until we came to a creek. So I quickly DUNKED him and BAPTIZED his hairy soul. And just like you said, he became as gentle as a lamb. We spent the rest of the day praising Jesus."

 

The Priest and the Reverend both looked down at the Rabbi, who was lying in a hospital bed. He was in a body cast and traction with IV's and monitors running in and out of him. He was in real bad shape.

 

The Rabbi looks up and says, "Looking back on it, circumcision may not have been the best way to start!!!"

[Guest thaiworthy]

I hope the animal rights activists aren't reading this. I can see it now. The bear grows up and complains that his rights were violated.

 

Robert Heinlein has been often quoted: Never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and it annoys the pig.

 

But then, the anti-circumcision folk do seem to get annoyed quite easily these days.

[Rogie]

But then, the anti-circumcision folk do seem to get annoyed quite easily these days.

Yes they do!

 

Dr Antony Lempert, a GP and chairman of the British Secular Medical Forum, has submitted a motion to the BMA conference calling for doctors to stop performing "irreversible, clinically unnecessary surgery on the genitalia of non-consenting minors."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13932711

_____________________________________________

 

But when the following measure was proposed back in July this year . . .

 

San Francisco Superior Court Judge Loretta Giorgi ruled Thursday that the measure to criminalize circumcision must be withdrawn from the November ballot because it would violate a California law that makes regulating medical procedures a state -- not a city -- matter.

 

Giorgi then ordered San Francisco's election director to remove the measure from city ballots.

 

The ban would have made it illegal to "circumcise, excise, cut or mutilate the whole or any part of the foreskin, testicles or penis of another person who has not attained the age of 18 years." And under that ban, any person who performed circumcisions would face a misdemeanor charge and have to pay up to a fine of up to $1,000 or serve a maximum of one year in prison.

. . .some religious bodies objected vociferously!

 

Marc Stern, associate general counsel for legal advocacy at the American Jewish Committee, said the Jewish community was "clearly appalled" by the proposed ban.

 

"This is the most direct assault on Jewish religious practice in the United States," said Stern. "It's unprecedented in American Jewish life."

and, not to be outdone . . .

 

"We would agree with the Jewish religious and legal scholars regarding the practice, and ... to my knowledge, there is no compelling medical reason to ban it," said Ibrahim Ramey, the human civil rights program director at the Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/san-francisco-circumcision-ban-striken/story?id=14179024#.TrklGPSXu7s

_______________________________________________

 

Thailworthy also said:

The bear grows up and complains that his rights were violated.

Well, the way I see it is if the bear was converted to Islam or Judaism he would be shouted down. If he stuck to his guns and stayed secular he'd have every right to object vociferously, or even voraciously

[kokopelli]

 

But then, the anti-circumcision folk do seem to get annoyed quite easily these days.

 

No comment on circumcisions, but do like your new Avatar, Thaiworthy. Does it have special meaning?

[Guest thaiworthy]

No comment on circumcisions, but do like your new Avatar, Thaiworthy. Does it have special meaning?

Funny you should ask that. Indeed it does! I perform magic shows for children (and sometimes grown-ups as well) here in the U.S. Also, I am taking a cue from PattayaMale and others to allow the boyfriend a little privacy by replacing his picture from my former avatar. This seems more suiting. Thanks for noticing.

[Guest]

No comment on circumcisions, but do like your new Avatar, Thaiworthy. Does it have special meaning?

 

Managing to successfully change the avatar is quite an achievement. I'm still trying to update mine with some recent material (no prizes for guessing the source).

[Rogie]

Managing to successfully change the avatar is quite an achievement.

I thought you already had, then went back to the original one, but I must have imagined it.

 

Your comment implies there is a difference between putting one in for the first time and changing an existing one.

 

In any case, a wave of his wand and in one bound Thaiworthy is free (of his old avatar) and blessed with the new.

[Guest thaiworthy]

I will have to teach good ol' Z909 on the finer techniques of prestidigitation whereupon the member featured in his avatars levitates slowly to a fully erect position. Presto! But I kinda get the feeling he can work his own magic singlehandedly (no pun intended). Ok, actually the pun was intended but I do like the recurring themes in each one.

[Guest]

I thought you already had, then went back to the original one, but I must have imagined it.

Your comment implies there is a difference between putting one in for the first time and changing an existing one.

 

Well, I must have managed it once to get Aqux guy in as the avatar

.

My efforts to freshen it up with a new 2011 model have resulted in the new avatar showing in my profile, but the old one still appears next to posts. Very confusing.

[Guest fountainhall]

. . . the new avatar

Do I get a royalty every time someone looks at your posts?????

[Guest thaiworthy]

And I have to admit that my aversion against circumcision has religious traits: I believe in reasons against circumcision, and I don't believe in reasons for circumcision (other then acute medical reasons).

Well, that explains things a little better, I guess. I still wonder though, what does the PFC in ChristianPFC stand for? Prefer Foreskin Connected?

[kokopelli]

Here is a link to info on circumcisions as originally done in Biblical times:

 

http://www.nccg.org/lev20110401.html

 

Basically just a snip of the tip and not scalping the stalk.

[ChristianPFC]

PFC means Private First Class (the equivalent of the rank I hand when I left the compulsory military service in Germany). But I like your idea!

 

I found another joke about circumcision:

 

At the end of the tax year, the IRS office sent an inspector to audit the books of a local hospital.</p>

<p>While the IRS agent was checking the books, he turned to the CFO of

the hospital and said, "I notice you buy a lot of bandages.  What

do you do with the end of the roll when there’s too little left to be of

any use?" </p>

<p>"Good question ," noted the CFO.  "We save them up and send them

back to the bandage company and every once in a while, they send us a

free roll." </p>

<p>"Oh," replied the auditor, somewhat disappointed that his unusual

question had a practical answer.  But on he went, in his obnoxious

way. "What about all these plaster purchases?  What do you do with

what’s left over after setting a cast on a patient?" </p>

<p>"Ah, yes," replied the CFO, realizing that the inspector was trying

to trap him with an unanswerable question.  "We save it and send it

back to the manufacturer and every so often they will send us a free

bag of plaster." </p>

<p>"I see," replied the auditor, thinking hard about how he could

fluster the know-it-all CFO.  "Well," he went on, "What do you do

with all the remains from the circumcision surgeries?" </p>

<p>"Here, too, we do not waste," answered the CFO.  "What we do is

save all the little foreskins and send them to the IRS office, and about

once a year they send us a complete prick."</p>

 

(Can you believe it? The website I got this from does not allow copy paste! So I had to take a detour, therefore the formatting is left - to lazy to remove it.)

[Guest thaiworthy]

Great joke! Love it, though I heard one similar to it and has a different ending.

 

"What do you do with all the remains from the circumcision surgeries?"

We take it to a tanner. He makes a small wallet out of it and when you rub it, it turns into a suitcase.

[kokopelli]

Surprise, surprise, but circumcised foreskins are recycled! Among other things they are used to grow cells for skin grafts.

[kokopelli]

After much on-line research plus first hand experience, I conclude there is no valid reason for circumcisions other then a medical necessity. Religious and culture rituals fit into the category of body modification/mutilation such as piercings, scarring, tattoos, etc and serve no real purpose. Doctors do this procedure only to put money in their pockets and parents allow it so sonny-boy will look just like his daddy. I doubt that any kid would want this procedure if given an option not to have it done. That is why it is usually done to infants who have no say in the matter.

[Rogie]

Religious and culture rituals fit into the category of body modification/mutilation such as piercings, scarring, tattoos, etc and serve no real purpose.

I agree with the gist of your comments.

 

Not sure about the bit about serving no real purpose though. In many cases that is true, so for example at one time the only men you'd see with an ear ring were old sailors. Then in the early 70's in Britain they caught on amongst students and skinheads and now they are very common amongst all strata of boys and men and completely meaningless (IMO), so yes that is an example of something with no real purpose at all, other than as a fashion accessory. However, when you say the religious and cultural rituals serve no real purpose, yes that is true in a physical sense because they aren't in any shape or form an improvement on mother nature, but the fact is they persist, so must serve some other sort of purpose which will vary but will always be of enormous significance, both on a personal and 'tribal' level. I think cannibalism has almost completely died out, but if an anthropologist visiting a headhunting tribe in the 1930's was told they ate the brains of their victims because they believed by doing so gave them magical powers, you'd be a brave man to tell them it served no real purpose!

[kokopelli]

Correct, circumcisions for religious/cultural purposes serve no real purpose in the physical sense. No doubt Rabbis and Mullahs and Shamans would disagree with that comment.