Americans and Israel

[PeterRS]

Headline on today's BBC website -

Americans used to be steadfast in their support for Israel. Those days are gone

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cr4n90g6v9qo

Given Israel's actions against the general population in Gaza and elsewhere, is that surprising? 52,000 murdered in Gaza - a great many being women and children. Major preventions re aid for the general population. No more need be said.

[floridarob]

5 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Americans used to be steadfast in their support for Israel

A majority of Americans couldn't find Israel on a map.... and know even less about Palestinians, they know what their favorite news channel or cult leader  has told them to think.

[unicorn]

I guess that one has to define "support for Israel." I support it as a state (as I support the state of Palestine). That doesn't mean I approve of Netanyahu's actions, or even him as a person. I believe that he, as well as Trump, are sociopaths who should spend the rest of their lives in prison. I'd also love to see Hamas obliterated. I've even seen Palestinians demonstrate against Hamas, and Israelis demonstrate against Bibi. But I'm fine with the Israeli people and Palestinian people. I've even been sending a generous amount to an organization which helps the Palestinian people, while also being audited to make sure that help doesn't make its way to Hamas:

https://www.anera.org/

Anera’s policy is to supply assistance to only legitimate and capable institutions and to comply with U.S. laws. We filter individuals and agencies against computerized lists maintained the U.S. Treasury Department on its Office of Foreign Assets Control list. Because Hamas, for instance, is designated as a “terrorist group” by the U.S. State Department, Anera does not work or even coordinate with them.

Anera’s local staff evaluates our partners and assesses accountability, management, technical capacity, and community outreach. Through this process we determine if the institution is capable and eligible to work with Anera.

When a project is completed, we generate detailed financial and program evaluation reports. We use robust monitoring and evaluation systems. In this manner, Anera continually evaluates projects from a fiscal and impact standpoint.

Anera is audited annually by independent auditors and we follow Generally Accepted Accounting Principles, which are standard financial guidelines for most non-governmental organizations. This measures many of the benefits and the success of each program. Read our accountability statement.

[Keithambrose]

6 hours ago, unicorn said:

I guess that one has to define "support for Israel." I support it as a state (as I support the state of Palestine). That doesn't mean I approve of Netanyahu's actions, or even him as a person. I believe that he, as well as Trump, are sociopaths who should spend the rest of their lives in prison. I'd also love to see Hamas obliterated. I've even seen Palestinians demonstrate against Hamas, and Israelis demonstrate against Bibi. But I'm fine with the Israeli people and Palestinian people. I've even been sending a generous amount to an organization which helps the Palestinian people, while also being audited to make sure that help doesn't make its way to Hamas:

https://www.anera.org/

Anera’s policy is to supply assistance to only legitimate and capable institutions and to comply with U.S. laws. We filter individuals and agencies against computerized lists maintained the U.S. Treasury Department on its Office of Foreign Assets Control list. Because Hamas, for instance, is designated as a “terrorist group” by the U.S. State Department, Anera does not work or even coordinate with them.

Anera’s local staff evaluates our partners and assesses accountability, management, technical capacity, and community outreach. Through this process we determine if the institution is capable and eligible to work with Anera.

When a project is completed, we generate detailed financial and program evaluation reports. We use robust monitoring and evaluation systems. In this manner, Anera continually evaluates projects from a fiscal and impact standpoint.

Anera is audited annually by independent auditors and we follow Generally Accepted Accounting Principles, which are standard financial guidelines for most non-governmental organizations. This measures many of the benefits and the success of each program. Read our accountability statement.

A very sensible comment.  I have many Jewish friends, including two Rabbis, who are committed  to the State of Isreal, but bitterly opposed to Neranyahu. They still support the two state solution.

 

[Pete1111]

How did thousands of Palestinians advance so far into Israel and kill so many?  For all the $ billions in military support that Congress has sent Israel year after year, does anyone want to know how Netanyahu's government allowed an attack of this scope?  Instead of taking responsibility, even resigning, he has shifted blame, and used the attack to strengthen his power.

That said, I know how Palestinians treat gay men.  I would feel foolish supporting people that freely want to do us harm.  The Middle East has become a sh!t hole for gay men since the Arab Spring.  Israel is the only place that remains somewhat safe for us.

The BBC piece discusses how opinion is shifting among the young.  I could ask the campus protesters where are your protests against Trump's colleague in Moscow?  Tens of thousands of Ukrainian civilians have died. Wake up.  

 

 

[PeterRS]

5 hours ago, Pete1111 said:

How did thousands of Palestinians advance so far into Israel and kill so many?  For all the $ billions in military support that Congress has sent Israel year after year, does anyone want to know how Netanyahu's government allowed an attack of this scope?  Instead of taking responsibility, even resigning, he has shifted blame, and used the attack to strengthen his power.

I don't think we know eactly how many Palestinian fighters invaded Israel. What they did was brutality in the extreme and inexcusable. But there are several facts we have to be aware of. Almost 2,000 Israelis and foreign nationals were killed and 251 taken hostage. Reprisals were bound to follow, but the scale of those reprisals, considering some hostages still have not been released, is massively out of all proportion to the scale of the original attack, both in terms of the horrific number of deaths and the near destruction of most buildings in Gaza.

We have to remember that in 1993 there was a glimmer of hope when it seemed a two-state solution would emerge. The Gaza Strip had been handed over to the Palestinians after the creation of israel. Under international law, israel has no right to that land. That illeglly ended with the Six-Day war in 1967 when Israel took it over. The plan for a two-state soution remained in discussion but was doomed to failure after Israel's moderate Prime Minister and was hero, Yitzak Rabin, was assassinated by a right-wing Jewish extremist. The stage was set for the eventual take over of the right wing in Iraeli pollitics.

It took until 2005 before Israel dismantled its settlements and left the Strip. Israel assumed leadership would be taken over by the Palestine Liberation Organisation. Two years later the more militant Hamas which had never accepted the state of Israel assumed power. Thereafter for years Natanyahu's governments propped up Hamas. He assumed that reducing the influence of the PLO would virtually end discussion on a two-state solution.

So what happened in October 2023 is entirely due to Netanyahu. He took his eye completely off the ball. In August 2023 his own security advisers were telling him that security had become weak and Israel had to so something to beef it up - and quickly.

In November 2024 the independent Civilian Commission of Inquiry into October 7, which was organized in July 2024 by survivors of the October 7 attack and the families of victims who were either killed or kidnapped, released a report placing broad blame on the Israeli government for effectively bolstering Hamas throughout Netanyahu’s tenure and leaving the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) ill prepared for the assault. Although the report named Netanyahu, Yoav Gallant, Benny Gantz, the IDF, and intelligence agencies among those responsible for the security failure, it especially condemned Netanyahu for undermining coordination between the political and military echelons.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Israel-Hamas-War

But then of course we know Netanyahu had other reasons for not concentrating on his country's security. For years Netanyahu has been facing trial for five different cases of bribery, fraud and breach of trust going back to 2016. Although his trial commenced in 2000, it has still not reached a conclusion. Successive hearings have been postponed for a variety of reasons. Prolonging the war in Gaza and entering into conflicts with other nations ensures that judgement in his trial keeps on being postponed. And all the while the USA backs him. There are many rotten apples in the Middle East. Netanyahu is one of them.

[Olddaddy]

9 hours ago, Pete1111 said:

How did thousands of Palestinians advance so far into Israel and kill so many?  For all the $ billions in military support that Congress has sent Israel

I believe the conspiracy theories,... because they let them in and knew about it 

[vinapu]

12 hours ago, PeterRS said:

And all the while the USA backs him.

that summarises it all