Disrupting the supply lines to Ukraine

[Keithambrose]

15 minutes ago, vinapu said:

that's the difference between Ukraine and Russia.

News from Ukraine are seeping in, in Russia culprit would quietly disappear in handy car or plane crash or got elevated to higher position and it would be just another ' vsio normal'no " day

Or pushed out of window, to lower position!

[Moses]

2 minutes ago, Keithambrose said:

Or pushed out of window, to lower position!

I think at next few months you'll see chain of "accidents" and "suicides" of Ukrainian ministers for to cut links from corruption scandals to Zelenskiy personally. (By the way: read my comment on prev. page)

[iendo]

1 hour ago, Moses said:

it is installed by Western propaganda "urban legend" for to make Ukraine to look "democratic"... by fact Ukraine and Russia are the same...

Have you seen NABU (anticorruption burau) in the news? Zelenskiy made 2 efforts already for to dissolve it. Last time - in August'25: all detectives and prosecutors from NABU were arrested in August by Ukrainian secret service (I think at that time Zelenskiy got information who's voices are on NABU's tapes). Only fast intervention of EU stopped it - EU just immediately switched off all  money supply lines. And after 5 days NABU again has been restored. 

So, thisу current scandals are going not because UA is democratic country, but because EU forced current situation against Zelenskiy's will.

I understand that you think Western media also uses propaganda. I agree that every country presents information in its own way and that you always need to look at multiple sources. But the situation in Russia cannot be compared to the West. The scale, the methods, and the consequences are completely differen

In Russia, people are arrested for criticism, journalists disappear, political opponents fall from balconies, businessmen die under strange circumstances, and even using the word “war” can lead to prison. That is not an “urban legend.” It is documented by Russian courts, Russian laws, and human rights organisations. No Western country arrests people for using the wrong word, or shuts down every independent newspaper.

So yes, the West has bias, but it does not have a system where public criticism automatically leads to prison. That difference matters.

About Ukraine: I know the NABU case you mentioned, and it shows that Ukraine still struggles with corruption and political pressure. But it also shows the opposite of your conclusion. Things came out because: journalists could report it, EU institutions stepped in, the government had to reverse its actions under international pressure

Those mechanisms only work in countries where transparency still exists. In Russia, nothing like this would even appear in the news, and there would be no external institution able to intervene.

So, corruption in Ukraine does not mean Ukraine and Russia are “the same.” It means Ukraine is still chaotic and imperfect, but it is not a closed authoritarian system where everything is suppressed.

That difference is important when we talk about propaganda or compare political systems.

[Moses]

44 minutes ago, iendo said:

But the situation in Russia cannot be compared to the West. The scale, the methods, and the consequences are completely differen

Please read again: I do NOT compare Russia and West. I do comparation Ukraine and Russia. And both countries are the same:

2 hours ago, Moses said:

by fact Ukraine and Russia are the same...

[iendo]

5 minutes ago, Moses said:

Please read again: I do NOT compare Russia and West. I do comparation Ukraine and Russia. And both countries are the same:

I understand your point, but I still disagree. Ukraine and Russia are not the same, even if both countries have corruption and political pressure.

In Russia, there is no real opposition, no independent media, no investigative journalism, and no way for courts or the public to challenge decisions from the top. People who criticise the government face prison or worse, and there is no outside institution that can force the government to reverse its actions.

In Ukraine, corruption is a serious problem, but the difference is that things can still be exposed. Journalists publish investigations, courts sometimes block decisions, civil society protests, and international partners can pressure the government to undo illegal steps, as happened in the NABU case. None of that is possible in Russia.

And before we continue, I would also like to know if you agree with what I said earlier. Calling the war a war can lead to prison in Russia. Independent newspapers are closed. People fall out of windows or disappear after criticising the state. If we want to have a good faith discussion, we cannot deny that these things happen. Do you agree with that part?

[Moses]

2 hours ago, iendo said:

Calling the war a war can lead to prison in Russia.

Wrong. Putin himself uses word "war". For example official Russian news agency quoted him here https://ria.ru/20241018/ukraina-1978774925.html  "War in Ukraine started in 2014". So it is urban legend on the West since 2023.

Private Russian TV channel Tsargrad uses word "war" as a tag for to filter news https://tsargrad.tv/tags/vojna-na-ukraine It is channel which propagate monarchy in Russia. It isn't that popular, but you may see on any TV-receiver it in every city of Russia without subscription or special equipment. 

2 hours ago, iendo said:

Independent newspapers are closed.

Wrong. There are a lot here. But they aren't popular since population supports Putin in mass. So they appear on horizon and die. What is true - mass medias can't be financed from abroad currently. But without Western support they just don't survive.

Russia has introduced a foreign agent law, similar to the US. Those receiving foreign support are required to use the "foreign agent" label in all publications. And since patriotism is currently quite high here, no one buys such publications, they have no advertising, and the media is dying.

2 hours ago, iendo said:

People fall out of windows or disappear after criticising the state.

Oh, that's complete BS. Urban legends. At least at the state level. Perhaps at some private level it exists, but it's all about property, money, or corruption. Politics has nothing to do with it. The Russian state isn't as cannibalistic as the Western media portrays it. The state does something much simpler and easier: it creates conditions in which such people prefer to leave Russia. Not because it's dangerous to live here, but because they can't make a living here. No one hires them here, and because of sanctions, the West can't support them here—it's impossible to transfer money here. So they leave, and then start working for Western media and singing songs "How terrible it is to live in Russia."

 

[khaolakguy]

For over two decades, President Vladimir Putin has squeezed dissent in Russia. Critics, journalists, and defectors have faced dire consequences after opposing him. From poisonings to shootings, mysterious falls from windows, and even plane crashes, there is a long trail of silenced voices.

This list is just a sample. Relevant to discussion on Ukrainian corruption is the fact that when Magnitsky exposed corruption by top government officials in Russia it was he who was put in jail where he subsequently died from torture and medical neglect.

https://www.newsweek.com/putin-critics-dead-full-list-navalny-1870692

 

[iendo]

1 hour ago, Moses said:

Wrong. Putin himself uses word "war". For example official Russian news agency quoted him here https://ria.ru/20241018/ukraina-1978774925.html  "War in Ukraine started in 2014". So it is urban legend on the West since 2023.

Private Russian TV channel Tsargrad uses word "war" as a tag for to filter news https://tsargrad.tv/tags/vojna-na-ukraine It is channel which propagate monarchy in Russia. It isn't that popular, but you may see on any TV-receiver it in every city of Russia without subscription or special equipment. 

Wrong. There are a lot here. But they aren't popular since population supports Putin in mass. So they appear on horizon and die. What is true - mass medias can't be financed from abroad currently. But without Western support they just don't survive.

Russia has introduced a foreign agent law, similar to the US. Those receiving foreign support are required to use the "foreign agent" label in all publications. And since patriotism is currently quite high here, no one buys such publications, they have no advertising, and the media is dying.

Oh, that's complete BS. Urban legends. At least at the state level. Perhaps at some private level it exists, but it's all about property, money, or corruption. Politics has nothing to do with it. The Russian state isn't as cannibalistic as the Western media portrays it. The state does something much simpler and easier: it creates conditions in which such people prefer to leave Russia. Not because it's dangerous to live here, but because they can't make a living here. No one hires them here, and because of sanctions, the West can't support them here—it's impossible to transfer money here. So they leave, and then start working for Western media and singing songs "How terrible it is to live in Russia."

 

We are still talking about basic documented facts, not opinions. You are free to support Russia, but we cannot pretend these things do not exist. If we want a good faith discussion, both sides must at least accept verifiable reality.

1. Using the word “war”
Your examples do not show what you claim. Putin started using the word only after the Duma changed the law in June 2024. For two years before that, people were fined or prosecuted for calling it a war. There are court cases, charges, and sentences that are publicly documented. We cannot erase that just because the Kremlin later changed strategy.

2. Independent media
Saying “there are a lot” is misleading. Almost all major independent outlets were blocked, closed, or forced abroad between 2022 and 2023. What survives inside Russia is tiny, restricted, and can be labeled “foreign agents” at any moment. Again, this is documented by Russian authorities themselves. Ukraine has corruption, but it still has active investigative journalism and actual media pluralism. These are not comparable situations.

3. People falling out of windows, poisonings, disappearances
Dismissing all of it as “Western urban legends” is not serious. Many cases were reported by Russian police, Russian hospitals, and even state media before censorship tightened. Some of these people were officials, oligarchs, or critics who died under extremely unusual circumstances inside Russia or inside state buildings. You do not have to blame the state for every case, but denying that these events happened at all is simply not honest.

Now I will repeat my question, because you avoided it completely:

Do you agree that for years people in Russia could be fined or prosecuted for calling the war a war, that independent newspapers were shut down or forced abroad, and that several critics and businessmen died or disappeared under suspicious circumstances?

If we cannot agree on these very basic, fully documented facts, then it becomes impossible to have a discussion with you in good faith.

---

[Moses]

12 minutes ago, khaolakguy said:

For over two decades, President Vladimir Putin has squeezed dissent in Russia.

There's no point in arguing with believers. If you want to believe Western propaganda, good luck.
BUT, unlike you, who only see filtered news, I live here. And I see what's really going on.

[Moses]

14 minutes ago, iendo said:

Your examples do not show what you claim. Putin started using the word only after the Duma changed the law in June 2024.

Wrong. First time he said that word on December 23, 2022 - on press-conferense in front of a lot of journalists. You can easy find this video.

14 minutes ago, iendo said:

Almost all major independent outlets were blocked, closed, or forced abroad between 2022 and 2023.

There are NO "major independent medias" who support opposition: just because it is against mainstream. Any major medias here are within mainstream - only on this way they can sell advertising and have readers/watchers, otherwise it will lose all readers/watchers. As soon, as any media will support unpopular here point of view it will be marginal and die. It is like in your country communist (or Nazi) party (let's pretend it exists) will start to publish newspaper. How long it will survive?

14 minutes ago, iendo said:

Do you agree that for years people in Russia could be fined or prosecuted for calling the war a war

Nope. Since "tsar" - how West call Putin - said that word.

 

[Moses]

Correction: on December 22, 2022

https://t.me/RIAKremlinpool/8504 it is Telegram channel of RIA "Novosti" - official state news (and propaganda) agency. He said  "Our goal is not to spin the flywheel of military conflict, but rather to end this war." in context of "Everything started in 2014 from coup in Kiev".

[iendo]

4 minutes ago, Moses said:

Wrong. First time he said that word on December 23, 2022 - on press-conferense in front of a lot of journalists. You can easy find this video.

There are NO "major independent medias" who support opposition: just because it is against mainstream. Any major medias here are within mainstream - only on this way they can sell advertising and have readers/watchers. As soon, as any media will support unpopular here point of view it will be marginal and die. It is like in your country communist (or Nazi) party (let's pretend it exists) will start to publish newspaper. How long it will survive?

Nope. Since "tsar" - how West call Putin - said that word.

 

Your argument keeps jumping away from the point. You are now denying things that are documented in Russian law and Russian court decisions. If we want a serious discussion, we cannot pretend these things never happened.

1. About the word “war”
Putin saying it once in December 2022 changes nothing about the legal situation at that time. Between March 2022 and June 2024, Article 207.3 of the Russian Criminal Code punished anyone who spread “false information” about the army, and hundreds of people were fined or prosecuted specifically for calling the invasion a war. These cases are public and can be checked in Russian court records. A single speech from Putin does not erase those prosecutions.

2. About independent media
This is not about “supporting opposition.” Almost every major non-state outlet was blocked, shut down, declared a foreign agent, or forced abroad. Dozhd, Novaya Gazeta, Ekho Moskvy, Meduza, TV Rain, all blocked or dismantled. Some smaller projects remain, but they must label themselves “foreign agents,” cannot earn normal advertising income, and can be shut down at any moment. That is not media freedom. You do not have to like Western media to admit this basic reality.

3. You still did not answer the core question
You avoided it again by changing the topic.

So let me ask you directly one more time:

Do you agree that people in Russia were fined or prosecuted for calling the war a war under Article 207.3 before the law changed? Yes or no?

This is not a question about opinion. It is a simple factual question with hundreds of documented cases. If we cannot agree on something as basic as documented court sentences, then what are what's the use of this discussion?

 

I asked some ai help to do some research: 

 

These are real legal cases under Article 207.3 of the Russian Criminal Code, introduced in March 2022.

This law punished “discrediting the Russian armed forces” — and the authorities explicitly treated calling the invasion a “war” as “discrediting.”

Below are some of the clearest examples.

---

1. Alexei Gorinov — Moscow City Council member

• Sentence: 7 years in prison (later adjusted)

• Reason: At a council meeting he said, “children are dying in this war”.

• Legal basis: Article 207.3

• Evidence: Video of the meeting was used as proof.

This is one of the most publicized cases because he was punished for merely using the word “war” in an official discussion.

---

2. Maria Ponomarenko — journalist from Barnaul

• Sentence: 6 years in prison

• Reason: Posting online about the attack on the Mariupol theater, using the word “war.”

• Legal basis: Article 207.3

• Her post explicitly said Russia was “waging war.”

---

3. Ilya Yashin — opposition politician

• Sentence: 8.5 years in prison

• Reason: YouTube video where he said that Russian troops committed crimes in Bucha and referred to the conflict as a war.

• Legal basis: Article 207.3

Even in court, he stated: “I refuse to call it a special military operation; it is a war.”

---

4. Dmitry Ivanov — student activist

• Sentence: 8.5 years in prison

• Reason: Telegram posts calling the invasion a “war.”

• Legal basis: Article 207.3

---

5. School teachers and ordinary citizens fined

Between March 2022 and early 2024:

• Thousands of cases in the Russian judicial database show fines of 30,000 to 50,000 rubles for “discrediting the army” — often for:

  • Writing “No to war” on social media

  • Holding a sign with the word “war”

  • Referring to soldiers “dying in a war” in conversations recorded or reported

Examples include:

• Yelena Osipova (artist, St. Petersburg)

Fined for holding a sign that said “No war.”

• Multiple teachers across Russia

Fired or fined after students recorded them saying “war” in class.

• People fined for social media comments like:

“Why are we at war?”
“This war should stop.”
“Russian soldiers die in this senseless war.”

These are all documented under the “discrediting” law — again, Article 207.3.

[Moses]

4 minutes ago, iendo said:

Article 207.3 of the Russian Criminal Code punished anyone who spread “false information” about the army, and hundreds of people were fined or prosecuted specifically for calling the invasion a war

That "they" saying you by Western TV? Well it is speculation. In meaning "false information" most of punished were prosecuted for to spreading "news" from Ukrainian propaganda, like "millions of Russian soldiers were forced to go to war and were killed".

[iendo]

3 minutes ago, Moses said:

That "they" saying you by Western TV? Well it is speculation. In meaning "false information" most of punished were prosecuted for to spreading "news" from Ukrainian propaganda, like "millions of Russian soldiers were forced to go to war and were killed".

We are talking about official Russian court documents, not Western TV

[Moses]

10 minutes ago, iendo said:

We are talking about official Russian court documents, not Western TV

Well then let's talk about facts. Osipova wasn't fined 

17 minutes ago, iendo said:

for holding a sign that said “No war.”

She made exhibition of her antiwar arts in SPB. There were 77 her works.

I will quote news:

"One day, Osipova took to the streets with anti-war posters, which read, among other things, "The war in Ukraine and Syria is Russia's shame." The artist was surrounded by a crowd of angry people who began snatching the posters from her, threatening her, and calling her a traitor. Osipova was only saved that time by the appearance of riot police, who intervened between the crowd and the artist."

More here in Russian (speaking about opposition medias) https://www.severreal.org/a/v-peterburge-politseyskie-snyali-kartiny-s-antivoennoy-vystavki/32249563.html

As you can see - this information is freely distributing here. It is opposition media at Russian Nord-West, sponsored by Radio Freedom (US). And state don't need to suppress such individuals - public will do it instead.

[iendo]

3 minutes ago, Moses said:

Well then let's talk about facts. Osipova wasn't fined 

She made exhibition of her antiwar arts in SPB. There were 77 her works.

I will quote news:

"One day, Osipova took to the streets with anti-war posters, which read, among other things, "The war in Ukraine and Syria is Russia's shame." The artist was surrounded by a crowd of angry people who began snatching the posters from her, threatening her, and calling her a traitor. Osipova was only saved that time by the appearance of riot police, who intervened between the crowd and the artist."

More here in Russian (speaking about opposition medias) https://www.severreal.org/a/v-peterburge-politseyskie-snyali-kartiny-s-antivoennoy-vystavki/32249563.html

The example you posted doesn’t contradict what I said.

It actually confirms that anti-war expression in Russia leads to threats, police intervention, and removal of artworks.

The fact that this is considered “normal” already shows how limited the space for dissent really is.

[iendo]

4 minutes ago, Moses said:

Well then let's talk about facts. Osipova wasn't fined 

She made exhibition of her antiwar arts in SPB. There were 77 her works.

I will quote news:

"One day, Osipova took to the streets with anti-war posters, which read, among other things, "The war in Ukraine and Syria is Russia's shame." The artist was surrounded by a crowd of angry people who began snatching the posters from her, threatening her, and calling her a traitor. Osipova was only saved that time by the appearance of riot police, who intervened between the crowd and the artist."

More here in Russian (speaking about opposition medias) https://www.severreal.org/a/v-peterburge-politseyskie-snyali-kartiny-s-antivoennoy-vystavki/32249563.html

But what about the other examples? You seem to be cherry picking. 

[Moses]

1 minute ago, iendo said:

t actually confirms that anti-war expression in Russia leads to threats, police intervention, and removal of artworks.

Police protected her from public. Read article with help of Google translation.

[Moses]

6 minutes ago, iendo said:

But what about the other examples? You seem to be cherry picking. 

In Russian we have popular proverb "One fool can ask so many questions that 7 wise men won't be able to answer them all in time".

I'm sure you aren't fool, but proverb demonstrating situation: you publish a lot of question, each is short, but I have to explain context about each one. And English isn't my best skill. So I take just one easy proofing fact from each post and show you result.

[iendo]

2 minutes ago, Moses said:

In Russian we have popular proverb "One fool can ask so many questions that 7 wise men won't be able to answer them all in time".

I'm sure you aren't fool, but proverb demonstrating situation: you publish a lot of question, each is short, but I have to explain context about each one. And English isn't my best skill. So I take just one easy proofing fact from each post and show you result.

If you prefer to focus on one example at a time, that is completely fine. Let’s start with the first clear case.

Alexei Gorinov, Moscow City Council deputy, was sentenced to seven years after saying the words “children are dying in this war” during a recorded city council meeting. This is a Russian court case under Article 207.3, published by Russian authorities.

Do you agree that this happened?

[Moses]

7 minutes ago, iendo said:

Alexei Gorinov, Moscow City Council deputy

Wrong. He was municipal deputy, not a "Moscow city deputy" - and that is huge difference. 7 years is correct.

He was first person who was prosecuted. He said in March'22 exactly "For information, I will say that about 100 children died in Ukraine." In April 2022 at the trial, he was unable to provide evidence to support his claims and was accused of disinformation.

[iendo]

2 minutes ago, Moses said:

Wrong. He was municipal deputy, not a "Moscow city deputy" - and that is huge difference. 7 years is correct.

He was first person who was sentences. He said in March 22 exactly "For information, I will say that about 100 children died in Ukraine." In April 2022 at the trial, he was unable to provide evidence to support his claims and was accused of disinformation.

Thank you for confirming the essential point:
Gorinov received seven years in prison for making an anti-war statement at a public meeting.

The exact job title and the exact number he mentioned do not change the fact that he was prosecuted and imprisoned for publicly speaking about the war.

So we agree that this case happened. I would call this progress!

[Moses]

4 minutes ago, iendo said:

for making an anti-war statement at a public meeting

No. It wasn't public meeting. It was Council meeting. By the way: trial was initiated by report of other members of Council.

[iendo]

1 minute ago, Moses said:

No. It wasn't meeting. It was Council meeting in his living area where he was deputy. By the way: trial was initiated by report of other members of Council.

Whether it was a council meeting in his district or a city meeting does not change the basic fact. You have now confirmed that a deputy was sentenced to seven years for speaking about civilian deaths in Ukraine and calling it a war. That is the point.

Since we agree on this case, let’s move to the next one:

Maria Ponomarenko
Journalist from Barnaul, sentenced to six years under Article 207.3 for posting anti-war messages online.

Do you also agree that this happened?

[Moses]

2 minutes ago, iendo said:

You have now confirmed that a deputy was sentenced to seven years for speaking about civilian deaths in Ukraine and calling it a war. That is the point.

Personally, I think he was deeply disliked in the Council. And the personal relationships between the deputies resulted in this outcome.

Remember what happened in the US during McCarthyism? Or what they did to Japanese American citizens during the war—all those concentration camps in the US? That's roughly what happened in 2022—the government didn't yet understand how the majority of the population would react to the events and applied maximum force where it wasn't really needed.