moistmango

Haven't been active on this forum for a little while now, but thought I'd give everyone a heads up, esp. those of you who have plans to be in Chiang Mai and will be on the hunt for some R & R. If you find yourself at Circle, steer clear of the guy calling himself Jack. (Pic below.)
It's the first time that something like this has happened to me in about a decade or so of hitting the bars. Was at Circle with a couple of friends last week, incld. a local, and ended up offing Jack. The bill came up to 250 BHT for his drink, 400 for the off fee, and 1500 for his tip. (Unusually, the tip was paid to the bar directly.)  The group of us headed out for supper, and my Thai pal was curious about his background so had a long-ish exchange with him. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary. At first he seemed perfectly nice, even bordering on friendly, but it was after we got back to my hotel room that matters went south quite quickly. I asked him if he would like a beer, and he insisted several times that he would go out to get some. I thought that was strange, so said I'd just get some from the hotel bar. He then changed his tune, insisting that he had to leave at 1 am; it was already ten to. I was taken aback, to put it mildly. I repeated several times that I had paid out the tip, but he kept mumbling something about the mummy not allowing him to stay. At least, that's what I thought was said ... I asked him to text/call mummy - it didn't make sense that he had to cut and run before business was finished - and finally, after about 15 mins of texting and a call, he finally said that mummy agreed to him staying overnight till 6 am for an extra 1000. I didn't have much choice at this point, so gave in. He asked for the grand up front. I handed it over like a fool, then headed down to the bar to get the beer.
What happened next seems almost predictable in the telling of the tale, but, as mentioned, this is virgin territory for me. When I returned with the two cans of Chang, he'd disappeared. Without finishing what he'd been paid for, and with the extra thousand baht that he managed to swindle me out of. At first I assumed that he was just out for a puff, but when I went downstairs I discovered that the little shyster's motorbike was gone. It is deeply, deeply unpleasant to be taken for a ride by someone you've been nothing but nice to .. 
While the money wasn't a big deal, the principle of the matter certainly was. I returned the following night with Thai pal and had words with Circle's mummy. She summoned a sullen-looking Jack out, and according to what my friend summarized for me afterward, he told her that our business had been done by 1 am, and that I had given him the grand as a bonus. Friend promptly set the record straight. She made Jack hand the 1000 BHT over, who did so with some reluctance, then disappeared without so much as an apology or look of contrition. I informed mummy that, since business had not been conducted either, I would like the 1,500 BHT tip back as well. (The off fee I was willing to forgo, seeing that he did at least spend the time having supper with us.) To her credit, the refund was promptly transacted. I then told her exactly what I thought of the crooked, two-faced fraud she calls an employee, and that if he could do this to one customer, he could certainly do it to another, and she best let him go. She appeared, unlike the boy, sincerely apologetic, so that at least provided the satisfactory conclusion that had eluded me the previous night. 
TL; DR. Jack from Circle in Chiang Mai is a liar, and a cheat. Avoid. 
 

Haven't been active on this forum for a little while now, but thought I'd give everyone a heads up, esp. those of you who have plans to be in Chiang Mai and will be on the hunt for some R & R. If you find yourself at Circle, steer clear of the guy calling himself Jack. (Pic below.)
It's the first time that something like this has happened to me in about a decade or so of hitting the bars. Was at Circle with a couple of friends last week, incld. a local, and ended up offing Jack. The bill came up to 250 BHT for his drink, 400 for the off fee, and 1500 for his tip. (Unusually, the tip was paid to the bar directly.)  The group of us headed out for supper, and my Thai pal was curious about his background so had a long-ish exchange with him. Nothing seemed out of the ordinary. At first he seemed perfectly nice, even bordering on friendly, but it was after we got back to my hotel room that matters went south quite quickly. I asked him if he would like a beer, and he insisted several times that he would go out to get some. I thought that was strange, so said I'd just get some from the hotel bar. He then changed his tune, insisting that he had to leave at 1 am; it was already ten to. I was taken aback, to put it mildly. I repeated several times that I had paid out the tip, but he kept mumbling something about the mummy not allowing him to stay. At least, that's what I thought was said ... I asked him to text/call mummy - it didn't make sense that he had to cut and run before business was finished - and finally, after about 15 mins of texting and a call, he finally said that mummy agreed to him staying overnight till 6 am for an extra 1000. I didn't have much choice at this point, so gave in. He asked for the grand up front. I handed it over like a fool, then headed down to the bar to get the beer.
What happened next seems almost predictable in the telling of the tale, but, as mentioned, this is virgin territory for me. When I returned with the two cans of Chang, he'd disappeared. Without finishing what he'd been paid for, and with the extra thousand baht that he managed to swindle me out of. At first I assumed that he was just out for a puff, but when I went downstairs I discovered that the little shyster's motorbike was gone. It is deeply, deeply unpleasant to be taken for a ride by someone you've been nothing but nice to .. 
While the money wasn't a big deal, the principle of the matter certainly was. I returned the following night with Thai pal and had words with Circle's mummy. She summoned a sullen-looking Jack out, and according to what my friend summarized for me afterward, he told her that our business had been done by 1 am, and that I had given him the grand as a bonus. Friend promptly set the record straight. She made Jack hand the 1000 BHT over, who did so with some reluctance, then disappeared without so much as an apology or look of contrition. I informed mummy that, since business had not been conducted either, I would like the 1,500 BHT tip back as well. (The off fee I was willing to forgo, seeing that he did at least spend the time having supper with us.) To her credit, the refund was promptly transacted. I then told her exactly what I thought of the crooked, two-faced fraud she calls an employee, and that if he could do this to one customer, he could certainly do it to another, and she best let him go. She appeared, unlike the boy, sincerely apologetic, so that at least provided the satisfactory conclusion that had eluded me the previous night. 
TL; DR. Jack from Circle in Chiang Mai is a liar, and a cheat. Avoid. 
 

I chanced upon the same DW.com video again*, now publicly available on Youtube. They have put it up under a different URL, with a different title too: Now it is "Sex tourists in Thailand".
*Youtube's algorithm for me must be a simple one: SEX, SEX, SEX. 🤣
Note: nothing gay in this DW.com documentary; all about girl sex.
As I mentioned earlier in my opening post, the video documentary shifts back and forth between sex tourism and paedophilia with no clear distinction between the two. The tourists interviewed were also pretty bad at pushing back against the moralistic undertone of the interviewer's questions. An underwhelming piece of journalism.
 

Here's an old documentary. Produced by Singapore company. The bar is Jupiter at its first location at current Moonlight location.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkPVl2XP9Ws
(nothing gay here. all about girl sex).
An embarrasingly poor documentary. It shifts back and forth between sex tourism with paedophilia with no clear distinction between the two. The tourists interviewed were also pretty bad at pushing back against the moralistic undertone of the interviewer's questions. It is, at an intellectual level, an underwhelming piece of journalism.

In many ways, I see wokeness as an attempt to white-wash, or color-wash, the past instead of acknowledging it and putting it into context. Often this means trying to impugn today's more enlightened values instead of showing things as they were, and explaining that our values have changed. At other times, it involves wholesale book-burning rather than preserving the demonstration of how our culture has changed. For example, the movie Breakfast at Tiffany's portrays some highly offensive racial stereotypes, which certainly could never have been produced today. Rather than banning the movie, the movie has a preface which prepares the audience for the offensive material, and explains how times have changed. In watching the movie, one can therefore gain an appreciation for how society has advanced (as one shrieks "Oh, my god!" while viewing the offensive parts). 
In other works, however, the works have simply been banned, such as the movie Song of the South and multiple Dr. Seuss books. At other times, works are simply changed to place our more modern, enlightened values onto old works, such as G&S's Mikado, or R&H's Oklahoma!. I personally think there's value in being able to view things as they were, so that we can reflect as to how far we've come. Seeing how things have changed for the better gives us appreciation for the courageous acts of those who helped instill that change, such as Jackie Robinson. One should view the past as it was in order to avoid repeating the mistakes of times past.
 

So I'm starting this thread to put a positive spin on where we are in 2023.  There are three threads that start with negatives - Spacey's court verdict, an Asian boy band predator, and an overall discussion about "wokeness" in films and plays.  Tangentially, we could throw in Bernstein and Bradley Cooper as a ridiculous example of "nose-baiting," which I guess is kinda like "queer-baiting."  🤔
So this will be a long rambling think piece.  But I'll summarize my two main points. 
First, I'm delighted that we have broader, better, and more positive representation of queers in films than ever before.  I'll use Red White & Royal Blue, Heartstoppers, and Uncoupled as examples.  I'll throw in Your Name Engraved Herein to make a few points, too. 
Second, while it's easier to be a Gay character in a film, it seems like we still have a mess on our hands in terms of whether it's actually okay to be a Gay or Bi actor.  At one extreme, the concept of "queer-baiting" suggests everyone should come out, even by force, and mostly or only play roles that match their real life sexual orientation.  In real life, Kit O'Connor was forced out, with this idea used as an excuse for cruelty.  TZP is being outed right now, all over the world.  Not for queer-baiting, but for being queer.  But what that means is fans are collecting and commenting on things he posted on social media for about a decade.  I would not call it cruel.  But I would call it a mess.  Meanwhile, we have what I'll call the Luke Macfarlane standard.  Which is "just be honest about who you are."  That seems to work these days.
That's one of my favorite clips from one of my favorite LGBTQ films, The Celluloid Closet.  So I'll use it to do a compare and contrast between three time periods over a quarter century apart:  1962, 1995, and today.
When The Celluloid Closet came out in 1995, it was itself a sign that it was just becoming okay to talk about how queers are portrayed on film.  I'm a fan of Lillian Hellman.  But I agree with MacLaine.  They had no idea what they were doing.  They were totally unaware.  Had they been lesbians, in real life, they almost certainly would have been more aware.  And they almost certainly never would have been cast, or had successful careers.  MacLaine is being a bit hard on herself, and her character.  What was one supposed to do in 1962, when most people still thought being a lesbian actually was a disease?
The spate of new Gay films I named, all rom coms or love stories, suggest that we really have learned a lot about representation of queers in film since 1995.  There's a nice thread on Company Of Men of posters' favorite LGBTQ films.  Almost all of them were made after The Celluloid Closet.  This is why.
I love both Heartstoppers and RWRB.  I've read the criticisms of RWRB.  That it's a mediocre Hallmark movie, based on fan fiction that reads like Marvel dialogue.  But I think the book and film are so successful because they summarize and dramatize decades of learned LGBTQ wisdom.  I'll single out one line that I've seen criticized repeatedly as Marvelesque:  "Starting today I shall no longer be the prince of shame and secrets."  That line, and much of the movie, could have been written as a direct response to The Children's Hour.  Finally, we have Gay adults, in Uncoupled, and a Gay and Bi teen, in Heartstoppers, and a Gay prince and Bi First Son, in RWRB, who are willing to fight for their queer love.  No wonder the world loves it.
I'll throw in Your Name Engraved Herein.  One person who posts here commented that it's one of the saddest movies he ever saw.  I agree that it is sad.  But I also see it as hopeful.  I loved it.  It is significant that it was the most successful LGBTQ movie ever in Taiwan.  And the most successful movie of 2020 in Taiwan, period.  I thought both the movie and its success was a recognition of how growing up in a culture like the one portrayed in The Children's Hour makes it challenging, but not impossible, to live a happy queer life with a partner.  The other Asian movie I finally saw this year that I'd compare it to is Bishonen, from Hong Kong in 1999.  It did prove you could cast gorgeous young Straight ABC actors, who would become friends in real life and have very successful careers.  But the film was a flop.  And like The Children's Hour it carried the message that these queer romances never end well.  These are two examples of good LGBTQ cinema that makes it very easy to understand why audiences, especially young audiences, love the idea that we really can have queer fairy tales now.  Where boy meets boy and does live happily ever after.
In terms of whether boy actor can meet boy and fall in love in real life, I feel like we are at about 1995.  Meaning we are just starting to be able to talk about it.  In that TIME article I hyperlinked, Your Name Director Patrick Liu talked about using a trumpet as a symbol of "a sound quality of wanting to say something, but not being able to get it out."  That seems to be where we still are.   One anecdotal proof of concept is Kevin Spacey himself.  He won his first Oscar right around when The Celluloid Closet came out.  I don't blame him for prioritizing privacy, and his career.  We know how Don't Ask, Don't Tell turned out in that era.  So you can take that as an indicator that it was better for him not to tell the world he was Gay at that time.
Kit O'Connor, 18, did not want to come out as Bisexual.  He did mostly thanks to the cruelty of Twitter, in his own words.  But taken to its extreme, "queer-baiting" means any actor, even a teen, should be required to declare his sexuality.  Then we know whether it matches the character he plays.  It's ridiculous.
Polo Marin, Mexico's most popular Gay actor, was outed twice in his mid-20's.  What he said in this interview captured some important nuances:
Then there is Luke MacFarlane, who along with a lot of other Gay actors - like much of the cast of Uncoupled - is setting what I view as the gold standard.
There's also the argument that, essentially, fans should not be fans.  Or even human.  We have no right to know anything about these people.  One really good response I read from some actor to some question once was, "I like to keep my private life private."  That's fair. 
That said, what both Marin and Macfarlane capture is that this does not happen in isolation.  And it is a two way street.  Marin wanted to be a role model for others.  And now he is.  Macfarlane made a pragmatic decision that he could afford to be honest to his fans.  First, there's absolutely zero evidence that fans are going to stop acting like fans just because you are Gay.  Second, he calculated he could be honest because his fans would love him and respect him for who he is.  He was right.  Plus, being honest is always easier.
Out of curiosity, I Googled to see who the most private celebrities in the world are.  I came up with this list.  I think it is telling.  If these are the most private celebrities in the world, we know a hell of a lot about them.  Like their spouses, whether they have kids, their divorces.  So if the idea is that fans are evil for wanting to know these things, good luck with that. 
I'll single out Matt Damon.  Like MacFarlane, he seems to be a wise guy who figured out how to get ahead of the curve.  Several friends have told me the story about how Damon is the kind of down to earth guy who would meet his wife in a hotel bar, where she was bartending.  He is not so private that he didn't share with the world that his wife helped him through a period of depression.  It makes perfect sense that celebrities who value privacy for their family try to manage it by curating what their fans get to know.  I think they are wise. 
On the other hand, Harry Styles has proved you can do very well by essentially saying, I could care less what people say about me or my sexuality.  He said there is going to be a set of narratives, anyway.  And he feels no need to control or shape them.  Although I suspect Harry can say that because it actually helps shape the Harry Styles mystique.  It still means that his fans know he is dating Olivia Wilde, who wisely calls Harry's fans "kind."
And now Taylor Zakhar Perez is in the global hot seat.  Which is more proof that we're now better at portraying queers in film than we are at knowing how to talk about queer actors in real life. 
It is easy enough to blame TZP for about a decade's worth of queerish content he posted on social media.  It is also easy enough to blame fans (or not fans) for caring about queerish content he posted on social media.  I don't feel either are very fair to TZP, or his fans.  But it does prove that if you are a nobody who becomes a big somebody on social media, keeping your private life private is next to impossible.  So, like Damon or MacFarlane, it probably makes sense to think that through as early as you can.
On Company Of Men I have raved repeatedly about how Galitzine finally came out as Straight in an interview with a Gay reporter at Variety when RWRB opened.  It's funny that some fans on social media still think it's a ruse, and he didn't really say it or mean it.  Fans will always be fans.  I'm guessing that Galitzine and RWRB Director Matthew Lopez had to have talked about that interview.  Galitzine kind of put Lopez on the hook by saying he wanted to discuss this with the openly Gay director right out of the gate, before he was cast.  I view the interview as an honest and wise way to get ahead of any possible queer-baiting or outing adventures regarding Galitzine and RWRB.  It is too much to hope that it will permanently end queer-baiting, and more cruel attacks on actors like Kit O'Connor.  But it is a big step in the right direction.
Even though RWRB was brilliantly scripted as a movie, and there seems to have been a script to undermine any possible queer-baiting backlash in real life, there is no apparent script for dealing with the fact that one of the two lead actors is Gay, or Bi, and married to a man.  TZP could have gone to Variety and talked about being a queer actor in a queer movie.  If these guys are as smart as I think they are, it suggests maybe there is a script.  Like Harry Styles, TZP may have decided he is fine with fans developing any narrative they want.  For now, at least.  Fans are already deep into speculation about whether he shares his husband's somewhat more conservative political beliefs.  That's a good reason to value privacy these days!
I do hope this results in a lot more behind the scenes reflection on how Hollywood can do better.  We now have lots of examples of queer actors who were outed.  So it makes perfect sense that in the future queer actors should factor in that if they get their wish, and are wildly successful, they may not have a choice.
The concept that curious fans should stop being curious fans is ridiculous.  This is fun for me in part because it so NOT me.  When I watched My Policeman with a Gay friend recently, he actually had to explain to me who Harry Styles is.  I'd never heard of him.  I skipped Kissing Booth 2 because I could care less about TZP, but wanted to know how the cheesy story in Kissing Booth 1 ended.  Now I've been following gossip websites I've never heard of, and reading articles in magazines I never read, to see how we got to TZP being outed.
So I'll point to one example of an article that is kind of innocuous, but also a perfect example of the problem.  Right when Kissing Booth 2 was being released, TZP was interviewed by Glamour. Here's a few snippets:
First of all, let's stop pretending that magazines like Glamour, or almost any other magazine or website in the world, are going to stop asking questions like that.  So sexuality is on the table.  Because they know that's what fans want to know. 
None of those answers are dishonest.  But they are somewhat misleading, and a bit transparent.  A few months later, if you Google it, there are all these articles in which TZP says he is not dating Joey King, who is a friend.  And he wonders where fans even got that idea.  Geez, who knows?  😉   A few people in these 100+ page "outing" discussions on TZP have speculated that Galitzine, having more experience, is more media savvy.  That may be true.  Glamour is clearly not doing upcoming queer actors any favors by asking these questions.  I'm guessing TZP might have been thinking, "I could tell you.  But then I'd have to kill my career."
I'd be fine if we all just forgot about queer-baiting and instead focused on how the entertainment industry can help the LGBTQ actors who are starting to break through to just be who they are.  We know Hollywood could exist for most of its history without outing queer actors.  The old solution was they had to lie and be something they were not.  I'm fine with the new solution being silence.  At least for some people, for some time.  If queer actors like Macfarlane want to tell the world they're Gay, and married to a guy, great.  My bias is I'd rather they all come out.  But if they don't want to, edit the question out of the interview.  It's clear that a lot of this is discussed with directors and publicists in private.  At least with some actors.  So change the script.
That said, now that TZP has gotten his wish, after what sounds like a decade or so of endless auditions, I'm guessing 99 % of the world will overlook these trivial things.  If it makes anyone look bad, it should be the industry that insists on pigeonholing sex symbols into stereotypes.
I have no idea what a better solution is for the awkwardness of being queer but not being ready to come out.  The good news to me is that the increasingly viable long term solution is what Macfarlane did in 2008.  Be honest.  It did not end his career.  He actually says it has helped his career.  I hope he is right.
 

Hard to believe it was over 30 years ago.  I had just moved to Portland.  Which is where the film was set, as you know.
Gus Van Sant was a groundbreaker.  Drugstore Cowboy was another one of his great early films.
And, yes, that scene was remarkably tender, and sweet, and also sad.  
Probably the best part of a very good movie.  Although there is also that brief memorable moment on the motorcycle.  But only because Keanu looked so incredibly pretty. 😍

About 4 years before "The Celluloid Closet" was released this gem of a film was made, "My Own Private Idaho." For many reasons it strikes a chord with my heart as it was made when I was young and the introduction of gay characters was starting to rise in earnest. Not to forget that the two main protagonists are among my favorites. It may not be an overtly gay movie but the the hints and tender moments make it all the more magical and haunting at the same time. It's portrayal of growing up gay is even more realistic than films made nowadays. A tribute to the both Keeanu Reeves and the sweet, charming angel that is River Phoenix.
The campside fire scene is the particularly heartwarming. The exchange was poignant and romantic and profound and intense.
💗Mike Waters: If I had a normal family, and a good upbringing, then I would have been a well-adjusted person.
Scott Favor: [Laughs] Depends on what you call normal.
Mike Waters: Yeah, it does. Well, you know, normal, like, like a mom and a dad and a dog and shit like that. Normal...normal.
Scott Favor: So you didn't have a normal dog?
Mike Waters: No, I didn't have a dog.
Scott Favor: Didn't have a... a normal dad?
Mike Waters: Didn't have a dog or a, or a, or a normal dad. anyway, that's alright. I don't feel sorry for myself, I mean, I feel like I'm, I feel like I'm, you know, well-adjusted.
Scott Favor: [Laughs] What's a normal dad?
Mike Waters: I don't know. [pauses] I'd like to talk with you. I mean I'd like to, uh, really talk with you. I mean we're talking right now, but, you know. I don't know. I don't feel like I can be... I don't feel like I can be close to you. I mean we're close, you know, right now we're close, but, I mean, you know...
Scott Favor: How close, I mean...
Mike Waters: I don't know, whatever.
Scott Favor: What?
Mike Waters: [pause] What do I mean to you?
Scott Favor: What do you mean to me? Mike, you're my best friend.
Mike Waters: I know, man, I know... I know... I know I'm your friend. We're good friends, and it's good to be, you know, good friends. That's a good thing.
Scott Favor: So...?
Mike Waters: So I just...
[pauses]
Mike Waters: That's okay. We can be friends.
Scott Favor: [flustered] I only have sex with a guy for money.
Mike Waters: Yeah, I know...
Scott Favor: And two guys can't love each other.
Mike Waters - Yeah. [pauses] Well, I don't know, I mean, I mean for me, I could love someone even if I, you know, wasn't paid for it. [pauses] I love you, and... you don't pay me.
Scott Favor: Mike....
Mike Waters: I really wanna kiss you man.
[pauses]
Mike Waters: Well goodnight man.
[pauses again]
Mike Waters: I love you, though. [pause] You know that. I do love you.
Scott Favor: Alright, come here, Mike.
[Pats the ground]
Scott Favor: Let's just see. come on, man. I Just wanna see, come on.


My Own Private Idaho (1991) - Campfire Scene.mp4

No need for racist slurs.

Starting with this newly uploaded post Saigon in the heat of April, there will be a series of reviews of five massage places in Saigon (Ho Chi MInh City) on my blog. It may take a few days for each of the rest of the posts to come up because I am still putting finishing touches onto them, in between catching up on work. It was a rather last-minute escapade. I found myself with a relatively free week and decided I would use it "productively". Since it had been at least 10 years since my last visit to Saigon, it was time to re-acquaint myself with this city. 

To tell you the truth I could use a bit of not being welcomed there as attention and outstretched palms with tip requests are bit overwhelming at times so I wouldn't mind to be left alone for an hour or so.

I fully share your assessment of Jupiter.
What I noticed is that while boys seem to be occupied , many patrons only keep them for drinking session and at end of shift boys seem to be free and congregate near the exit hoping to get lucky , certainly I got somebody 2 or 3  times that way.
Boys without the numbers , exactly reasons you suspect. Some are performers only , some are already reserved. Again , few times I noticed that tahy did not have numbers during earlier walkabouts but sported one on the last one . Presumably customer who reserved them cancelled or did not show or that were reserved for drinking session and released to the pool at end of night. So if you see boy sitting and drinking with  customers , don't assume he won't be available later on.

Cont...
Jupiter : I was also there twice, once on a weekday and once on a weekend. 1st drink was at THB 500. I didn't off anyone here as well. The models were all gorgeous that I don't think there's any single one that I wouldn't want to off 😅. Possibly the most number of models out of all the bars I managed to check out. On both days, there were a lot of patrons here (compared to other bars). Particularly on the weekend, it was so full that the waiters were struggling to find places to sit the incoming patrons. The shows were great, a mix of sexy shows and drag performances. I would echo the observations of other members on the general lack of smile or eye contact by models (I was seated facing the centre of the runway such that the models, when doing their rounds, would be seeing me face to face at a point but not a single one smiled). All in all, I had a good time there admiring the models and enjoying the shows. One thing I would note is that, perhaps a little different from what I've read previously, there were not that many female patrons on the weekday when I was there (I'd say less than 10, in a packed bar).
Hotmale : I was only here once on a weekday, close to midnight. It was after their show. There were probably less than 15 models there, and only a few other patrons. Drink prices were the same as others and I didn't off anyone here. The models were a mix of the generally fit/athletic type and twinks, and probably the most enthusiastic out of all the bars I went to. They would try to win your attention as much as they could while on stage.
 
Dreamboy : I also went here twice, once on a weekday and once on a weekend. Drinks were a little more expensive at THB 550 on both days. There was a variety of models available for off, ranging from twinks to jocks to muscle guys. I find the shows here to be the most interesting out of all (with the pyro act and flying angels etc.). Some of the models on stage will try to make eye contact and flash a smile, but others seemed rather disinterested. At least none were on their phone while on stage. There were quite a few I would love to off next time.
 
Moonlight : I went here twice as well. The drinks were priced at THB 500. I did off a boy from here (his drink + off fee = THB 900, if I'm not mistaken). The captain was very informative about the boys (who tops, btms etc.), told me about the minimum tip expected for an off (THB 2,500) and even went to pull out additional photos of the boys from his phone. The boys are generally of the same type as Jupiter. The guy I offed told me he remembered seeing me the previous day I was there (and he was right on when that was) so maybe the boys do take note of who sits in the audience? I noticed one particular boy who did give a lot of eye contact and smiles on and off stage, but I didn't off him this round (I went with the captain's recommendation). The shows were alright but maybe because I've seen videos of their models before that it wasn't that exciting in person. 
My ST experience with the boy was also good, and I would definitely off him again. It helped that I clarified what I was expecting to do with him at the bar, to which he confirmed to be OK with him. He is friendly and spoke fairly decent English.
 
Massage
I only managed to check out one massage centre, Arena.
The boys were all muscular guys that I could've easily gone with any of them. I chose one fair skinned Thai from the north and took the 1 hour VIP room oil milk massage (around THB 900 - big room and comes with tea/coffee. But for some reason, the shower room smelled a little off that even my guy commented on it). I was told that the minimum tip was THB 1000. His massage was a little too light for my liking (had to nudge him to increase the pressure) but it wasn't really bad (since I just wanted a relaxing massage anyway). The afters were alright, with some foreplay before he finished me off. He offered to finish as well for some extra tip (as it was pretty early in the afternoon) but I declined. I did still tip him more than the minimum since I enjoyed his company and conversation (even with limitations in the language department).
Those were some of my observations on the gogo bars and massage centre that I went to. I am already looking forward to my 2024 trips there, as there were a lot of guys from the bars I would love to off.

Hello Everyone
I'm devastated to have just returned home from a trip to BKK. I hadn't been since 2019 and definitely made up for lost time. It was sad to see Soi Twilight gone since I was last there, but also exciting to see new (and old) bars sprouting up across the street.

I don't do massage places, so this is just some notes on the bars I visited

Dreamboys
Dreamboys (original) was the first bar I ever visited in BKK, and we've made a tradition of always visiting here on our first night. I always remember this place more for its crazy shows - like where the big inflatable cock squirted water over everyone. That seems gone now sadly. New venue is a good size. Boys are of mixed type. I'm concious from other threads that the owner fired non-Thai boys. I met one Viet working in Fresh Boys who said he had been let go from Dreamboys recently, but didn't elaborate, so this might be related.
 
Jupiter
Probably the bar that excites me the most and frustates me the most in all of Bangkok. Most of the guys here are undoubtely gorgeous - straight looking, athletic, confident types - some very good looking. This bar has a slightly cooler atmosphere to it. Some members complain about perhaps the boys being too... modelly. I get that. But they work for me.
I have to say that their shows are the sexiest. I find most bars don't use best looking boys for the shows (maybe the best looking boys are not the best performers) but in Jupiter, the guys performing are great.
The guys are all shirtless and will do 3 or 4 parades around the bar - sometimes in pants, and sometimes in jeans. Always seemed to be busy. We visited 3 times - even early in the week at 10, and could barely get a seat!
But I find this place frustrating because the best looking guys almost always seemed to be taken quickly (or reserved) by high-rollers, VIPs, or rowdy tables of young women. Only on the last night, did one of the mamasans show any interest in asking us if we we wanted anything. He took me "shopping" backstage to find boy I liked. Worked out in the end...
On a side note, a couple of guys I was interested were performers, but did not wear numbers on their jeans on the final "walk" of the night. Could not tell if they were simply non-offable performers, or perhaps if they were already taken. Does anyone know why they walk without numbers?
On a second side note - some v cute, young-looking waiters - with numbers. Strange mix. I would imagine that the people coming to see the guys at Jupiter, would not be interested in this type.

Moonlight
I like the atmosphere in this bar. Even on a late weekday night, the place was busy with all kinds of customers, and everyone excited to see the performers. I have to admit, I had grown tired of seeing all the usual "superstars" in pics and videos online. But they still put on a great show. And seeing Babe perform again in person - he is beautiful. That smile!
The selection of boys is good looking - feel like they have a similar vibe to Jupiter - the kind of guys young female tourists want to drink with. Most wore jeans & t-shirts.

Tawan
Only visited here once. Only ever visit here once on any trip. I take a notion to see these big guys out of curiosity, but ultimately bodybuilders are not my type, and the show is too rough for me - it had whipping, cigarettes, wax etc.

As some members have pointed out, I did see one twink here - but he seemed to be the bottom for the muscle boys. He got carrieed around the room, table to table, for tips, while being f*cked.
 
Fresh Boys
Really liked the selction of guys here. Almost totally twinks (some twunks). All shirtless. They did a big cock show where they whack their dicks against a metal pole. Ouch.
 
Hot Male
Only visited here once, briefly, after midnight. The guys were attractive and nice bodies. I didn't see much of interest for myself, but I don't want to say its indicative of the bar, given how late I visited.
 
Screw Boy
First revalation of the trip. I don't know why I didn't visit here on previous trips. I sometimes got a sense from this forum that this bar was seedy or low class or something, so I was never really inclined to go. We ended up here somewhat accidentally when, after leaving a last minute, post-midnight trip to Fresh Boys, empty-handed, a hawker grabbed us surreptitiously on the staircase. "Show at 1!" So we went in. Really liked this place. I was delighted, not just to find a bar that opened later than the others on this street (they do shows at 1 am), but it had lots of really cute young guys, a fun atmostphere (opposite of cool atmosphere of Jupiter), 2 fun, friendly mamasans, good music and also a young male performer who looked like he could be an idol or something (later discovered he is a male performer on the Ladyboys of Bangkok tour). The guys all wore matching white baseketball outfits. Visited here 3 times.

Banana Bar
Second revalation of the trip. I was not going to go to this bar because there was nothing written about it in the forums that made it particularly stand out to me. But I was left alone by my friend one night of the trip because of a business meeting. After a drink alone at Connections Bar on Soi 4, I decided to wander in and had a great night. Beautiful ladyboys and performers, who had toured the UK as part of "The Ladyboys of Bangkok". Main performer very handsome. Waiters were friendly. And also I was startled to meet the mamasan here who used to work in X-Boys. I spoke to her about some of the changes since I had last been here. Of course a lot of money was spent. Amateur.

Went back second night, but attention was on a VIP table. Mamasan told us same customer had spent 100k tips on a previous night. Wow.

Had the same big cock pole whacking show as Fresh Boys.
 
G's
Third revelation of the trip. Sorry, I know this isn't about a bar - but I had never been to G's restaurant before on Soi 4. My friend and I went one night and got German/Thai fusion dishes which were delicious. Fully intended to go here again, but didn't due to other commitments, but this will definitely be a stop for dinner on the next trip. Recommended!
 
Did not get to visit Sol or New Twilight unfortunately.
 
Frustations with "Line" - had line contact for one of the Moonlight stars but when I logged into a very old account, it wouldn't let me add new contacts. So I tried to sign out and back in again, but said my account was blocked for 58 days. End of that adventure.
 
Very sad and exhausted to be home now. But hope you enjoy my notes.
 

Out of curiosity I wonder how many members of the forum might be retired in Thailand as I hope to do next year.
I would imagine not many as I've found retired folk tend to haunt the FB forums more... 
I am heading for Songkhla to live, I want to be close to the Malay border and Hat Yai as I have extended family in Penang and friends in Hat Yai.
I will make the trip up north for Bangkok and the tourist traps and find me a boy bar in Pattaya for a gin and tonic or four but it doesn't appeal to me to live up there.
If any forum members reside down south where I am hoping to be, please do strike up a conversation with me, I am up for some friends.
I am planning on being there late 2024, November probably. Leaving the UK late August '24 and doing a couple of months in Penang first. 

Dude. Seriously. 

We may not be comparing apples with apples. I think I know which sites you're referring to in Hong Kong and Singapore - those are gay-scene sites. This one is ... not quite. This site is an M2M-sex-buyers site.
Nor am I pessimistic about this site's future. Precisely because it is an M2M-sex-buyers site, it will age well. Given human nature, the trade will never disappear, though it may move from place to place and price point to price point. That's not to say that this site has not evolved nor continue to evolve. One day, even when there's AI and sex robots and businesses supplying them, I'll bet there will still be plenty of things to talk about.
When I first participated here, the Pattaya threads were as active as the Bangkok threads. Not any more. This seems to reflect, as others have pointed out, the decreasing number of Western retirees spending their golden years (and pensions) in Thailand, with Pattaya being the seaside town of choice. But I don't think the overall traffic to this site has reduced. It may even have grown, though I have no access to site statistics over the long term. So, if traffic has grown, it must mean that enough new members have come in over time too. 
This, in turn, is the other evolution that I can discern. More and more members are Asian. It's hard to put a number to it, but perhaps one in three or one in four of the active participants may either be Asian or expats living and working in the region. My guess is that there is a growing number of Singaporeans and Malaysians here, partly because these nationals (particularly the former) are comfortable in the English language. I thought there might be more Hongkongers for the same reason, but I don't see evidence of it.
I have noticed the increasing number of short trips reported on this site. It indicates they're from the region, and thus able to do a weekend or just a week's trip, rather than travel across multiple time zones to escape winter for three months, which used to be the dominant pattern in years past.
In time, as their disposable income rises, we may see more Filipinos and Indians on this site, for many of them too speak English.

Lol, I'm going to be that guy and give everyone a clue.
 
 

I am not gonna say anything.

If anyone knows of an idyllic country where everything is perfect, just the way you like it, all the time and never disappointing, please share with the rest of us where it is.

that's nonsense for both ethical and practical reasons. If bar introduced en masse "Thailand first ' policy pretty fast their scenes would be emptying and bar tables will follow.
They may be customers who prefer Thais only but I doubt it's massive sentiment. As "foolish" member  noted above, being cute counts , not passport or even lack of it.
And by the way that policy looked may be good on their sign but in reality there were non-Thais working as well. And sadly,  recent purge cleared also few Thais. One who alerted me about being let go was actually Thai

no,  it was releasing some venom, likely to mitigate gall-bladder pain

And I'll wager that he's extremely proud of that. Any takers?

Dude. Seriously.