Marc308

V, I think you are pointing out an interesting phenomenon -- yes, we are likely to be easily "conditioned" based on whether a previous visit ultimately went well. And yes you are right I am sure my/our attitudes have changed over the years. Perhaps now I demand too much of the bars, as they were once an essential meeting place, before the apps and massage places were dominant. Looking back, I don't think I really enjoyed going there (not much of a drinker, definitely not a smoker) and I definitely resented paying the wholesaler mafia, money which would more appropriately have been given to the provider of service. But back then they were a necessary marketplace... that's not the case anymore.

Gosh coming up a composite for the ideal go-go bar is a challenge indeed. My first reaction is to say the ideal composite is the OPPOSITE of (most?) of today's offerings: 1. Comfortable: Seating, lighting, music levels, cleanliness, no smoke. 2. FUN: I think the current bars have lost track of this essential ingredient. FUN to me means a welcoming attitude of mamasans, staff, waiters, owners; maybe a fun show means something with creativity, "surprises", a fun-loving atmosphere which does not focus only on sitting and drinking too much. Maybe offer interesting drinks beside the usual "well" drinks. 3. Sweet After-taste (pun intended?): When you leave the bar do you say to yourself gosh "that was a good time and I look forward to coming back again!"? The rule that seems to be overlooked by way too many bars today is the notion that cultivating return patronage is good business. For me, there is not a single bar which I look forward to going to. I used to like to go to BBB but then the women took it over. I used to like to go to Jupiter until the atmosphere turned surly. I liked going to Babylon, until it unexpectedly closed alas. Now I'm perfectly happy to rely on the apps, chance encounters, repeats from special guys. '

Alas much of the world is going through a severe housing crisis. Local residents are being thrown out of their long-term residences as owners convert their properties to short-term rentals. The crisis is particularly severe here in Hawaii, and critically severe on Maui, after the Lahaina fires. On Maui up to 1/3 of rented residences are either empty or converted to AirBnB-style use. I'm not sure what the answer is. A decent hotel on/near the beach here will likely cost you around $800/night, which to my mind is totally crazy and forces visitors to consider more affordable alternatives, including inducing them to break the law. In Pattaya some of the new buildings are waging a kind of warfare against short-termers. This is especially true of Copacabana, the glitzy newish Jomtien condo where some residents have reported having to sneak into their accommodation.

Hi Panther bro, I know of no specific "special" going on at Bumrungrad or elsewhere at the moment. You usually see the discounts in August, during the lowest point of the low season. That's when the best discounts usually appear. Yes, Bumrungrad is a medical marvel, boasting very high US- and European accreditation and its services overall are excellent, surpassing those of many hospitals in far more advanced countries. The price differential however continues to narrow and I suppose in not too many years they may approach those in Singapore or Dubai. I did want to comment a bit on the efficacy of wellness packages, aka multi-phasic screening: Some years ago, Kaiser-Permanente, the big US-based HMO, did a large-scale study doing screenings each year on nearly half its members, and not doing them on the rest. The results were discouraging: (Symptom-less) cancers were not discovered earlier, cardiovascular events were not predicted earlier, mortality rates were unchanged, etc. The reason? There were way too many false-positive test results: Mysterious spots on the liver or lungs turned out to be birthmarks after being biopsied or, worse operated upon, for example. The key word here though is symptom-less. By all means if you experience even minor symptoms such as tightness in the chest, a drop of blood in the urine or stool, etc. by all means get checked out. But beware of false-negatives. Hope this helps. Marc

Gosh guys 500B is indeed quite a bit of money. I can't get my head (?) around 5,000B for ST. It's unimaginable to me, sorry. 500B is already more than the minimum daily rate that a large percentage of Thai workers earn for a full day of labor. (As of January 1, 2025, the minimum daily wage in Thailand varies by province, ranging from 337 to 400 Thai Baht.) The mamasan at Midnight Cowboy (Saphan Kwai) who I asked for her recommendation once told that "200B was quite a generous tip". Yes it was some years ago of course, but gosh how things change!

Hi Vinapu, Squirrel House is listed at US $39 today. Doesn't look too bad. But yes BBB Inn was definitely cheaper.

I similarly had a British buddy (Peter P) whose end-of-life health bills outraced his British pension and savings quite rapidly. He was quite fine when he came to LOS years ago with a high GPB exchange rate and a reasonable British pension but both of those eroded rapidly. In Peter's case the hospital was actively trying to kick him out as he was dying. Self-insuring is the best (and perhaps only viable option) if you are 70+ 75+ 80+ but always remember that end-of-life care is getting more and more expensive in all countries, including Thailand.

I couldn't agree more. It's a far different scene from LOS with its own pro's and con's. But if you like big horny hairy beasts, you can't beat Delhi. And yes most are free esp guys who had been pressured into marriage and appreciate an outlet. You'll get many offers.

Dear Vinapu, Even though I haven't met you, I do sense your emotional conflict. As you age, life's curveballs come faster and more furiously alas. I'm glad your trip is relieving the pain but frankly it will take more than a therapeutic romp at Arena to clear the air, alas. Life is complicated.

That's a really sad story. Eighteen months of bliss is hard to sever. How would a "banking problem" impact your relationship?

Thanks guys, your descriptions are amazing... amazingly bad! Once upon a time (15? 20? years ago), Patong had a thriving and lively gay scene in Paradise Complex (and elsewhere). It sounds like the same plight which has visited Sunee Plaza has hit Patong now. The massage places then were also more conservative than those in Pattaya, but there certainly were "No Sex" signs on the doors, that's for sure! And Phuket in general was always more expensive (think hotels, food, transportation) than either Pattaya or Bangkok.

I sincerely hope you are not serious, Zombie! I have a nephew who is trans, and he is suffering severe anxiety.

I sure do miss Babylon! Whatta loss when it closed.

Yes eSIMs are far more useful than those TRUE or AIS SIMs sold at the airport. I mostly use Airalo (in 8 different countries thus far) with good results. Holafly is also good. No need to pay those outrageous roaming charges that most western cellular carriers charge. Luckily Airalo's eSIMs for Thailand (from DTAC) also give you a local phone number which is handy for Bolt, food delivery and Lazada purchases. Most eSIMs in other countries only give you a data allowance but no voice allowance.

Keep in mind that lasers can be dangerous -- if pointed haphazardly at someone's eyes you can literally blind them (burn their retina). Giving the laser to an inebriated customer might not be a good idea, alas.

In other words we are too damn old and won't be around all that much longer. Do you prefer that?

Oh gosh I rarely disagree with Vinapu and Omega, but hey guys, technology can be our friend! For one, the dating apps freed us from the boring bars and pushy mamasans, oh wow that was a great technological advance. The Line menu of available masseurs was a massive improvement over the old way of "hoping for the best" when going to a massage shop. Whether MFJ's idea of attaching QR codes instead of numbers would work is an open question, but at least you could learn something about the boy by getting some immediate feedback ("name", age, T/B, language proficiencies, size? ...) Technology has made Lazada possible, Bolt possible, ghost kitchen meal delivery possible... Someone clever will surely come up with a better way to breathe new life into the dying go-go bars. If not, the next generation (or current generation!) will put a nail in their coffin for sure. We, the retired and near-retired expats residents/visitors, do not have the financial profile nor the actuarial longevity that the industry needs to thrive.

Let me go back to my OP. When Jim and Gordon came to town, there was almost no precedent elsewhere in the gay world for the kind of interesting (and profitable!) businesses they built -- a pleasant, clean hotel; a nice friendly restaurant with a variety of cuisines; a bar (BBB) which packed them in every night to overflowing while still offering drinks at a reasonable price (99 baht). All this was innovative and revolutionary. Their foresight and creativity made a whole industry in Boystown, with spillovers in Sunee, Day & Night, and even North Pattaya. Their concepts were entirely appropriate for the 1980s/1990s. We must move on OR face extinction. Especially in low-season, going to a bar nowadays is an expensive, forlorn and lonely experience with dispirited boys using their smartphones, expats chatting with each other oblivious to most other goings-on, loud music which is usually ear-splitting. I'd say the biggest innovation since, and perhaps the one which has the longest staying power, is the appointed massage. Maybe this model will grow more (will Soda Massage adopt it?) And yes I found the 3 hour trip to Jey Spa to be well worth the time spent, just to get out of Pattaya for awhile: Super clean, nice guys, more or less reasonable prices. Why don't we have a decent one in Pattaya?? That would be a start.

BINGO wow that's the most exciting innovation I have heard of from Jomtien in YEARS!! :0 Some genius at @Home must have dreamt that one up to excite the crowds! Seriously folks, aren't there better ways to "have fun" than sit around punishing our livers while passively oogling the merchandise? You know many years ago Jim Lumsden and Gordon May came to town and built Boys Boys Boys and the Ambiance Hotel and totally revolutionized the gay scene in Pattaya. It was hard work, and risky work. Just WHEN is the next generation of innovators going to remake our precious city into an appropriate 21st century scene? The current "ambiance" doesn't appear to be working for anyone under 50. Just stroll through JC to see the graying of our compatriots. The clock is ticking!

Good point. I've seen too many of our brethren actively plying young boys with cigarettes, potentially condemning them to a life of coughing and wheezing, addiction to high priced cigarettes, and potentially to lung and other cancers. No one should feel obliged to drink, smoke or do drugs of any kind. I should hasten to add "unsafe sex" to the list as well!

Yes I've been in that office one time and was hoping for listing of rentals. Instead the staff were intent on selling me a new unit. Perhaps I should have prevailed longer in asking for medium-term rentals, but it was obvious their bread and butter was from commissions selling new units in whatever VT#n was on the market at the time. The frailty and disorganization of the real estate market in Pattaya never ceases to amaze me. There must be a better way... Some entrepreneur out there should try to make a consolidated listing website. Just a pipe dream I guess.

Thanks MFJ that information is very helpful thanks!

Sure you will! Keep trying! Even cursory conversation skills will add immeasurably to your experiences in the LOS! I remember one of my earliest trips to Thailand I met a western guy who (working here?) was so fluent in Thai. I said to myself that I could never master the mysterious language either. Well after some years of work (yes it is work) and many language books, conversational tapes, trying to read and pronounce, understanding tones and high-low vowels, etc. I've made reasonably good progress. But yes it does take WORK. If you are older than 3 years old (ahem), language is learned by WORKING. (Oh how I am jealous of those 3 year olds who speak so much more fluently than me!)

Thanks. Well as for the VTs, there seems to be an agency on Thappraya Road, which does do listings for all the VTs it appears. And yes there are agencies near most/all of the large condo complexes (there are two very near Jomtien Complex Condotel) but neither appeared to be interested in multi-month rentals. It's either short stay (read, by the day) or long-term (usually 6 months minimum). Using short-stay rates, a multi-month rental would cost about 2x or 3x more than monthly market rates. VT1 and VT2 may be an exception?

That's a challenge! My favorite but a bit pricey is Grand Centre Point Terminal 21, at Asok. VERY convenient to both BTS and MRT and Airport Line (Makkasan). The one-bedroom apartments on offer are spectacular, and super cheap by western standards but quite expensive by Thai standards. About $149/night on Agoda if you look for bargains. The same apartment in my home city would be around $800/night. LWLT