Marc308

Thanks V I appreciate hearing your perspective on all this. I understand that if my perspective were to dominate, the bars would soon crumble (as they already have in BT and SP). 1. I realize there is this aura of "safety" around the bar scene. Of course most of it is sheer fabrication. In the old days, we were told that the boys were regularly screened for STDs and HIV. That was a ruse. Then we were told we could complain to the mamasan if provided services were substandard. Well good luck with that one too. 2. Your argument about "touch and sniff" reminds me of the early objections to using Amazon (and some other ecommerce disintermediated sites). Yes you can disappointed by quality, sure it is possible. I can recall times when offing someone from the bar yielded a boy who "turned a switch" the moment he left the bar, leading to disappointment. It happens from either source. 3. Finally, I was talking about the bars only. Massage houses, saunas (do I miss Babylon!), and other establishments where meetings are possible is a slightly different matter. We do agree, for example, on Arena which I happen to like. At least in this situation you pay for a room from your "fee" not pay for nothing (as has been adequately documented by the OP and throughout this thread). 4. Also I was not talking specifically about apps either. While I do use them, the pain of using the "free" version will drive you crazy. And the prices they charge (I am talking about you, Grindr!) to rid oneself of most of the annoyances is crazy high. I realize if time is of the essence perhaps bars are the more expedient way to go. If you have some time though, I think serendipity is a far more satisfying way to explore. Let me give you one example: I had a farang friend in Pattaya who specialized in mototaxi boys. He was an aficionado about who was available, about how to strike the deal, what to look for, what to be wary of, etc. He definitely got many interesting "rides" alright!

Screw the bar mafia. Who needs middlemen? One of the founding principles of the Internet is/was "disintermediation". Why not use it? I prefer the money go to the service provider.

Isn't capitalism interesting!? A transaction occurs when/if the lowest price which a seller will accept is meets the highest price the buyer agrees to pay. It is how stock trading is done on Wall Street and it is true for lust markets as well. A bit sad but true.

You are right, there are always some risk involved. You don't want to be under the influence, overly tired, or not feeling well. That way you can use your best intuition and observation to limit those risks as much as possible, whether the danger be bodily harm, theft or disease. It is interesting to consider how those risks have changed over time. With doxy and Prep the disease risks have been lowered. Be careful with using translation apps alas, since you don't want your (unlocked!) phone to be grabbed away from you. In the past you maybe risked losing a few tan notes, now you might risk losing your whole digital life to the phone snatcher. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose, non?

One has to ask where workers will come from: 1. Thailand -- very few Thais in the bars. Some available on the apps. Fewer in the future as Thailand's economy continues to become more urban. 2. Vietnam -- it is plain to see the growing economy there might overtake Thailand in coming years, having the same result as Thailand. 3. Cambodia -- border skirmishes will make/have made it more and more difficult for Cambodians to stay for extended periods of time in LOS. 4. Laos -- the pull of China (and Laotian indebtedness to China) is very evident these days. It meas Laos, and to some extent Cambodia as well (look at Sihanoukville), are being dragged deeper into the Chinese orbit and away from ASEAN. 5. Myanmar -- if you've been to Chiang Mai lately, you know that many (most?) of workers there are Burmese, specially from Shan State, where the civil situation is precarious to say the least. Shan borders northern Thailand and the border is porous.

We can only hope that the re-imagined "Fun Bar" might actually be fun, not yet another boring "sit-down-and-drink-bar". As someone who drinks very sparingly, I've always wondered how I should behave in such bars. Ordering a coke or nam som only leads to a sugar high. Ordering a ginger ale doesn't seem appropriate either and makes one feel wimpish. Or, gasp, asking for an ice water. Really this has bugged me for years, and, on occasion, has led to my drinking alcohol more than my body appreciates, which I later regret and certainly isn't "fun" for me. At least, thank god, most of the bars now prohibit smoking. I say "most" because last time I was in A-Bomb most of the depressed customers were smoking like chimneys.

Yes I agree it is a useful discussion, thanks Mac. You are right, the owners as a rule have no sense about what attracts certain sub-populations so they try everything (or is it nothing other than "lust sells!"?) And you are right, the contrast of marketing tactics between the bars and the (Bangkok) massage houses is truly amazing: The latter provides photos, stats, availability via Line every day! I don't imagine it costs them much to do so since the marketing is online. My prediction is that either the "gay scene" is going to have to wise up and run things using modern segmentation marketing and pricing techniques (via smartphone), OR these fallbacks to the 1980's era will continue to fade away as the old-style farang customer (us) fades further and further into the past.

Why isn't there more innovation/experimentation/imagination used in this "boring beer bar" format? I know there has been some (e.g. bingo, etc) but nothing that truly differentiates from a "sit, drink!" format. You know when Jim/Gordon came to town and founded BBB the Pattaya world changed to an exciting, more-or-less affordable format from some sort of back-alley environment. Surely someone could make a change again and shake up things a bit, no?

A firm 'no' from me as well. Today's BBB (with z's) bears no resemblance to Jim/Gordon/Hugh's BBB (with s's) of the past.

Those kind of encounters are the most memorable. Far more memorable than the off-boys from an establishment when you know exactly (well maybe not exactly) how the play will end. My most memorable encounter of all time (well might be somewhat of an exaggeration hehe) was meeting a guy at the dairy counter at Foodmart one day... total serendipity which continued for a few years during my visits until he got married. Alas then I lost of track of him. A happy ending...

It's still exclusively for Japanese (straight) men? And yes it is quite refreshing to be totally ignored on that street.

Thanks for the photos, brings back many memories. One interesting thing to note, in both photos, there are examples of Japanese script. Today you would be hard pressed to see any Japanese script, instead it's been supplanted by Chinese. How the world doth change! I haven't walked on Soi Taniya in Bangkok anytime lately, I wonder if that Japanese girly street has changed character as well?

I had quite the opposite experience recently. I held on tightly (and properly) to a motocy taximan around the waist. Then he took my hand and put it down on his crotch. Of course I was quite shocked, but I didn't protest too much. I think for him it was one way of elevating his...tip. And it worked. And no I didn't report him.

This is a very good point, V. Perhaps we underestimate just how cutthroat it can be. Never forget that we, after all, are dealing often with the Thai bar mafia. Besides the mafia influence itself, it is corrupted police who keep these places alive and can close them in an instant if they don't get their "tea money". Like V, I prefer to support the working boys instead.

Jimmie, Welcome to the world. Most of us on this site have experienced similar emotions and faced similar disappointments. I have known one guy in Pattaya for 15 years (gulp) and of course he became a kind of friend. Yes he does have a good heart and is very kind. But I never could tell when his "emergencies" were real or imagined. It's an awful feeling not knowing if you are being played or whether there is true need. On some occasions I admit that I succumbed and sent off the money (without any expectations of repayment). On other occasions I stood firm and gave him the usual "sorry I don't have any extra money this month". Finally the drama got to be just too much, and the last time I was in Thailand, I told him I thought we should go our separate ways -- that I would always consider him a friend and will always have affection for him, but that I was his friend not his ATM. Bottom line: Human emotions are not completely rational and I will always have a soft spot in my heart for him.

Unfortunately this is more often than not my feeling as well. In fact, during my recent two-month stay I didn't venture once inside a go-go bar. I used to like going to A-Bomb but it the environment there sadly just became more and more laconic and lethargic. I didn't even feel motivated to stick my nose in the door this time.

PM Lee Kwan Yew was not the fuzziest of politicians but he sure did seem to know how to build a safe, prosperous state from almost nothing. In the process he did trample on a lot of civil rights, no doubt about that.

Jason, Lucky for you that you live close to Thailand so you can make so many trips "up north"! And congrats on finding a loving soulful relationship there. That's great!

very interesting indeed! it is striking how DeepSeek seems to make strong inferences from a bunch of largely unrelated threads which jason has posted. It is interesting to note that this forum has become fodder for DeepSeek's Machine Learning web collector.

I was in Sunee about a week ago and it was a depressing sight, a figment of its once bustling delights. Ditto, by the way, for the legendary Boystown (yes, with an "S") which was also mostly dark, deserted and haunted. Visit these two former erogenous zones only if you are interested in ancient history.

There is nothing that can match or replace Babylon, at either site. Nothing in my experience comes even close. Babylon was unique in Thailand, in Asia and perhaps unique in the world. A true wonder of the gay world. It was at the same time an upscale bar, eatery and pool with all the down-n-dirty accoutrements of a gay sauna.

Yes I'd like to hear an explanation as well. In most cultures even very modest attempts to speak the national language are considered respectful and appropriate. In the US, and in most English-speaking countries, it is considered a little insulting if a long-stay "guest" doesn't make some even feeble attempts to speak English, no?

You got that right! 5Pm is closer to my deadline than 5Am, for sure! Ah how advanced age dampens early morning urges.

This raft of new(ish) massage places (including Jey Spa, Klover, History, Senso, Prime, ...) are becoming quite imbedded in gay culture in Bangkok it seems. Overall from what I have seen the "talent" has gone way up, although I must say that doesn't necessarily mean "massage" prowess, which seems to be more and more an afterthought at these places. The prices are high but, as the messages above also attest, seem to be worth the expenditure. I can confirm that as well from my experience. I haven't left disappointed so far. Of course the day will cum I"m sure... The other side of the coin are the shops in Saphan Kwai which are decidedly cheaper (total expenditure maybe 60% of the HiSo ones). But you can get a good bang for your buck.

You are right OD, the term "MB" seems to be a rather new euphemism. These days the apps make it easier to spot MBs from "non-MBs", thank goodness. I have to admit more than once assuming an app profile was a MB when I then had to sheepishly apologize to him for making that assumption. Now it seems the lines are more clear cut.