macaroni21

I found Numazu’s analysis of Tawan’s branding most insightful. Indeed, there is a certain “time stood still” quality to our experiences at Tawan. The bar’s format has hardly changed. Even the newer premises are just as basic as the previous place. As Numazu put it, “Going to it nowadays is like getting into a time machine, harkening back to a Bangkok that was grittier, dirtier, and maybe more fun…” Numazu's analysis can be found at thread title “Bangkok Trip Report 2022: The wait is over. What was I waiting for?”, 24 July 2022, 9:59am. I had a similar thought when I walked in last week. I liked the familiarity of it, even though I am no muscle worshipper. I liked the easy-going character of the place where the guys just come up to you and say a few words without a mamasan swooping in to throw the “buy him a drink?” spanner at me. That said, Tawan does make a few concessions to modernity. The front-of-shop lighting is now more “dynamic”. There were about 15 guys in briefs except two in jockstraps. Most of the guys were in great form. It looked as if there was a competition they were preparing for, but the papasan said there wasn’t. When off the stage they might put a T-shirt on, but most of them stayed shirtless all the time. There weren’t many customers in the bar at about 10pm when I entered - perhaps ten (all Asian) – but because the bar is so small, barely 3 metres wide, it still looked active. At any given time, there were about 3 or 4 muscle guys on stage, which was no bigger than two dining tables placed end to end. The guys mostly just stood there and did nothing in particular. This was the part I thought the management should give more thought to. It’s not interesting enough for customers. But it’s always been like that, so I guess one could say why fix what is not broken? I was not bored, though. The papasan sat with me and we had a good conversation about the long shutdown brought on by Covid-19 and how everyone had to find other ways to survive. He shared a story about a Japanese customer (who had visited only the night before) who was stuck in Tokyo while his business in Thailand floundered. Discretion prevents me from repeating the details, but there must have been many small-time foreign investors in the same predicament. It made me think: As much as we might complain about being unable to visit our favourite destination(s) for two years, others with deeper financial stakes must have been tearing their hair out. On a different note, the papasan volunteered information about why they moved to the new shop, which is just across the street from the old one. Apparently, the landlord (of both the old Tawan bar and Sun Massage which were adjacent to each other) did not want to renew the lease for any of his tenants. The whole row, he said, now stood empty. Perhaps somebody is sniffing redevelopment potential, but frankly, with so much overbuilding in Bangkok, the property market already looks like a glut. At 10:30pm the show began. Once again, it was a throwback to the past. The first three items had cross-dressers doing lip sync numbers. Each was solo; there were no backing dancers because there simply wasn’t enough space on the stage. Then 3 guys came up to demonstrate some flexing. Two had outlines of hard-ons beneath their briefs. The third guy expertly positioned his dick to leave little to the imagination, with the glans peeping out over the waistband. There might have been one more act, but at this point, I wasn’t paying much attention to the show. I was more interested in making eye contact with one guy sitting quietly two metres from me. He seemed lost in his thoughts, and it proved unusually difficult to get his attention. I could have asked a papasan to tap him on his shoulder, but right when you needed one, no papasan could be found. Where were they? Through the corner of my eye, I noticed that the next act was the big cock show. About 6 or 7 guys came onto the stage briefly and then circulated among the audience offering a grope for tips. The trouble was that as soon as I tipped one (after a careful assay of his member with my hands), all the rest came to me like vultures to a carcass. I felt attacked. The fourth guy had my last 100-baht bill and I had to plainly tell the rest that there was no more money. Which was a good thing, because I had to get them away from me as soon as possible before the quiet guy left his seat. They were obstructing my line of sight with the object of my lust. I knew neither his name nor number, so it would not have been easy to tell a papasan who to summon for me should he disappear somewhere into the back of the shop. But he was still there after I shooed away the vultures, and finally, he noticed me beckoning him. “You not do show?” was how I opened my conversation with him. “Last time I do the jack-off show,” he replied. “But now, I don’t want to do anymore. I shy.” This is intriguing. I can understand the progression from shy to not-shy, but in the other direction? This is going to require a more extensive interview, and we made a pact to do it in my room. Drink (for customer or for boy): 400 baht. Off fee: 500 baht. Music volume: comfortable. The papasan also informed me that they had two short-time rooms upstairs. I forgot to ask about the charges but in any case, looking at how basic the bar is furnished, I’d have only the lowest of expectations for the rooms. In the daytime (not sure which hour to which hour) Tawan uses the rooms for massage services. “Some boys”, said the papasan, would be here to provide massages, but not all. He pointed to a guy near where I was seated as one of the usual masseurs. Bad move. That was the one guy who probably used the gym least. All of the sudden, I lost all interest in coming back tomorrow for a massage. That said, there might be others who would also be present in the day for massage, and who might be true hunks, but the papasan didn’t point them out to me.

While they like to call it a "tip", functionally, it is not. If the bar or massage parlour paid the boys a meaningful salary or at least a biggish commission*, then any additional amount we give to the host, gogoboy or masseur would, functionally, be a tip in that it would be a token of appreciation. In that form, it would be a smaller and more discretionary amount, e.g. the 100 baht we give to a boy who sat with us for 15 - 20 minutes in a gogobar without an off. (*I am fully aware that if the bars and massage parlours were to pay a meaningful salary, they might have to jack up their list prices... or they might have to stop paying the cops.) However, in the context of a gogoboy or masseur providing sexual services which the bar or massage parlour (officially) denies responsibility for, then it becomes a fee, not a tip. Fees are either negotiated, or, in the absence of a negotiation, based on some sort of going rate. My personal opinion is that TotallyOz's scale of remuneration (to be precise, he said "acceptable price") is on the high side. In his post 9:38am of 24 July, he said Bangkok Short time - 3,000 baht Pattaya Short time - 2,000 baht plus taxi While he is free to apply his own (generous) rates, as anyone is. I think the going rates are roughly 60 - 75% of those figures. We hear the mamasans in gogo bars say 2,000 baht would be expected for short-time. I think in Pattaya a mamasan would say 1,500? (not too sure here, perhaps others can share their experience). In the Bangkok massage places, my recent experience is that the managers are suggesting 1,000 to 1,200 baht, on average, for playtime at the end of a one-hour massage. Nine Massage actually says 1,000 on its website. And I also agree with you that performance must play a (big) part in what we finally fork out. So, the way I see it. there is a "fee" component and a "tip" component. Say, we take a gogoboy out from a Bangkok bar. Nowadays, it seems the expected fee is 2,000 baht. But if the guy gave us a great time, we may add 200 or 300 baht on top. That would be the tip component. Ditto n a massage parlour. The expected rate may be 1,000 to 1,200, but if we're on Cloud Nine after the session, we naturally feel an extra 200 - 300 baht is well-deserved.

Thanks for the intel, @garylim88. This explains the impossibly large number of boys pictured in the Line advertising of some shops.

For the last few days, I have been trying to search on this site for a post that had a video about the evolving business model for girlie bars in Pattaya, to no success. I am now begining to wonder if I saw the post on another forum altogether. But then, I don't visit any other forum much. It must have been about 2 or 3 months ago, and the attached video was perhaps 15 minutes long. It was made by a resident expat who clearly was in the know. The video spoke about salaries and commissions for the girls and how bar owners were discouraging offs. My main handicap has been that while I can roughly recall what was said in the video, I can't remember anything that was said in the introductory post, without which i can't think of any unique keywords to search with. If anyone can help find that link, it would be much appreciated.

Just as I was about to reach the slab block that housed Sabaidee Massage in its carpark floor, I noticed to my right a number of fire-damaged houses. It had been reported by @reader in https: // www.gayguides.com/forums/topic/37924-many-houses-destroyed-in-bangkok-blaze/#comment-335550, and there's even a photo of the blaze there from the Bangkok Post. I had read about it then, but didn't realise how close it was to Sabaidee's block. At its closest point, it would have been merely 4 or 5 metres from its back door. It's been a month since the fire and the houses have not been demolished. In my picture, the peachy orange wall on the left would be the boundary wall of the slab block. I tried to engage the Sabaidee manager on the disruption (if any) the business suffered as a result, but all he kept saying was "no problem, no problem." Perhaps he didn't realise I was asking about the past, and thought he needed to assure me that business is back to normal. He had sent me a ton of pictures via Line, but the photos of his masseurs had neither name nor number, and I didn't know how to specify which ones I was interested in should I wish to message back. So, without any prior booking, I showed up. He explained that I should have Lined back the pics of my shortlist and he would then tell me more about them. I hadn't thought of that, but surely, it can't be much more work to attach a name or number to each picture in the first place. It would have saved me (and probably other customers) a lot of puzzlement. Anyway, he then showed me five guys on his tablet which he said were "available". Four clearly worked out in gyms, one of whom was a definite W4M. Not quite competition standard but close. The fifth was an S3R- not much muscle - but he had the sweetest face. I told the manager W4M was my first choice and S3R was my second. He got onto the phone and managed to reach W4M immediately, only to be told that W4M was on his way to another appointment - one which the Sabaidee manager didn't know of. This suggests a considerable degree of fluidity in staff management. The boys are in fact freelancers who may work for other massage shops or have their own advertising. So S3R it would be. He was in the back of the shop and appeared within seconds. Let's call him Sucho. He led me up one floor to the next level which had about 8 or 9 massage rooms. I don't know about the other rooms, but the one assigned to me had an ensuite shower. It wasn't a fancy room, but not cramped either. There was enough space to move around the massage table. Sucho showered with me right at the start - that made a good impression already. His massage technique was average. There was a good deal of vigourous rubbing. Although he clearly knew several other strokes, he wasn't putting them to good use, or at the right spots. The exerted pressure was good and strong. As for coverage, it was originally not extensive enough, focussing mainly on the back of legs, back and shoulders. When I asked him to not forget the chest, arms and front of legs, he happily obliged. He knew what to do, but I guess bad habits of omission in a gay-sex kind of place quickly degrades a boy's standard programme. Although he was nude from the beginning, what was noticeable was that for a gay-sex kind of place, there was virtually no brushing during the massage. He wasn't skilled at the arts of seduction in that regard. That didn't deter me and we soon proceeded to Part 2. Nothing much to write home about but I left satisfied. He showered with me in closing. For a 90-miniute oil massage, the manager had earlier indicated a tip of 1,500 as expected. The house itself asked for 1,000 baht for "the room". Looking at the clock on my phone, I noticed that I had spent about 1 hour 35 minutes inside. One last point. When I asked Sucho which day of the week was his day off, he replied that he only worked at Sabaidee Spa 3 days a week. Apparently, the place has a kind of roster. I tried to ask Sucho where else he worked, but I couldn't quite understand the reply. He did volunteer that even on those days where he was "with" Sabaidee, he only got on average one customer a day. If this is the business model, I wondered if that meant that most of the numerous photos that Sabadiee Spa sent out might not represent actual availability on any particular day.

Haha, surely we all know how wonderfully varied the world is ... Mr Straight Guy: "What is this fascination with 2 guys sticking it into each other's rear? The idea doesn't do it for me. What am I missing? Mind you, I would love to admire those toned bodies, but only in the gym, not in the bed."

In one of my visits (2018 or 2019) that coincided with the wet season, I bought a pair of Crocs. I am glad I have them with me this trip. Being entirely plastic, they dry out easily. They can also be scrubbed clean if one had to walk through mud with them.

I went twice to Fresh Boys on Patpong Soi 2 within the same week, but what a difference the hour makes. The first visit, I arrived at about 10pm and stayed for the show. The bar was more than half full. The second visit, I arrived after the show (I can't remember what time exactly) and there were only three other customers there. At 10pm, I counted 18 customers, filling up the two rows of benches facing the stage and as a result, I was shown to a side bench. From that vantage point, I could see that five customers had six boys sitting with them. The total number of customers increased to 25 - 28 by showtime at 10:30pm. However, the bar saw well more than that number of customers because throughout the evening, there was quite a lot of coming and going. The mamasan helpfully moved me to a better seat when a customer left. There were 25 - 30 boys, rotating 10 to 12 at a time on stage, all shirtless and in white shorts. Sitting with customers were 5 - 6 boys. Most were S2 and S3R with the occasional S3M or Q2. In short, "medium twinks". It's a small space, and customers are close to the stage. When off the stage, the boys often sit in a section that faces the customers and eye contact is easily made. That compensates somewhat for the bad choice the bar made in choosing yellow and white for some number tags. The contrast between the two colours is so low, it is virtually impossible to make out the boy's number from anything more than a metre and a half away. This annoyed me because the one guy I thought best-looking had a yellow tag and try as I might, I just couldn't make out his number. Fortunately, he walked by a few times and smiled and we connected. The show could well be the "best" in Bangkok in my estimation, for the simple reason that it had no lip-sync katoey items. These numbers put me off, not least because they also tend to turn up the volume for the song. Undoubtedly the acts were amateurish, but I wasn't here for slick and polish. There were only six items, all performed by the rotation crew. Five out of the six items had engorged appendages on display. The second last act had three guys with stiff members whacking a metal pole, after which they circulated among the audience for gropes and tips. This was followed by the finale that had two guys in coital positions. I didn't off anyone that night. My WhatsApp kept distracting me with messages from home, and with a small crisis brewing, I felt that a longish voice conversation was being expected from me in the following hour. A couple of nights later, I was back at Fresh Boys, timing it for after the show since I was intending to take a boy out. I had no clear idea which boy that would be but since I had the impression from my first visit that quite a number of boys from Fresh were within my acceptability criteria, it was probably the place with the best chance of a good fit. Wow, there were only three other customers post-show. More importantly, there were only about 12 - 15 boys. Assuming that the bar had started the evening with the usual complement of 25 - 30 boys, that meant that about half the boys had been taken, a pretty good "off" rate. I shouldn't have been surprised. The other night, amongst the coming and going, I saw three customers leave with new-found companions within the 30 minutes before the show began, Yellow tag was among the less fortunate ones that night. He had not been taken and was still there. I called him down from the stage and resumed our conversation from where we had left off the previous night. Unlike the last time when, because I didn't want to raise his hopes of an off from me, we talked only about his family and his home town, this time we went quite quickly into the specifics of what he would do and what he'd rather not do in bed. He leaned over and sort of whispered into my ear. "I can bottom," he said. I hadn't expected that, as he looked straight to me. Nonetheless, I did not let my surprise delay me. My reply was ready. "And I can top." A few minutes later, the bill was called. At Fresh Boys, each drink was 350 baht. The off fee was 500 baht.

Unlikely. No boy would remain seated in place if a customer had left. Moreover, my drink, check bin and knapsack were still there. And with so few customers in a bar, just as I could see who was doing what, I am sure others could see that I had headed to the bathroom rather than the opposite direction to the door.

Something similar happened to me a few nights ago, but it wasn't as serious as the OP's incident. It was resolved quickly and I didn't have to contemplate any further action. When I entered the gogo bar, there were only 3 other customers. Each had a boy sitting with him. With so few customers, it's easy to note who was with whom. All 3 customers were on one side of the bar but I chose to sit on the opposite side, facing them. I fancied a boy who was then on stage and signalled to him to come sit with me. That he did and we remained seated together for some 20 minutes before I needed to go pee. In those 20 minutes, we had some discussion about what he would or would not do in the room and his expected fee. I think my boy was pretty sure that we would soon be striking a deal, though I hadn't yet said so explicitly. Just before I went to the bathroom, I happened to notice one of the customers ("John" for now) releasing the boy who had been seated next to him. I couldn't tell if they had agreed on an off or not. When I got back from the bathroom, John was talking to the boy who was sitting with me. He had come over from the other side of the bar to do so. I took my seat wondering a little what a reasonable response from me should be. I don't want to use terms like 'proprietorial rights' but I felt that common courtesy and respect for others' spaces were being called into question. After all, I have been in situations myself where, walking into a bar, a boy recognized me and initiated a hello. My response would typically be to return the hello with a smile and little more, but also a smile and nod to whichever customer was then with him. And move away. In this case, john continued talking to the boy even after I took my seat, ignoring my presence. But the boy was smart enough to resolve the situation. He nudged himself closer to me and placed a hand on my thigh. Meanwhile, I looked straight at john. Don't know if one might call it a glare. He moved away and exited the bar. Obviously he had not offed the guy he had been sitting with. I asked my boy whether he had met john before. The boy said no. Five minutes later, I off'ed my guy and forgot about the incident until I read about your experience.

Two doors from the soon-to-reopen Senso Massage was a restaurant that billed itself as a place for Isaan food. Named Somtum Der, it served provincial cooking in a chic setting. I flipped through the menu on a stand at the streetfront and noted that the prices were reasonable, but it was only a little past six and a tad too early for dinner. Should I or should I not? Then two twenty-something guys came from inside to their glass door to invite me in. "Oh," I said to myself half-jokingly, "what are the Senso guys doing here?" The guys looked deliciously like some of the staff we remember so fondly of Senso. All resistance crumbling, I went in and chose a strategically located table with a good view of the bar and service counter. I particularly loved the woven rattan (or bamboo?) baskets overhead. My guess was that these were inspired by the baskets Isaan folk use to catch fish in rivers or perhaps to hold chickens on their farms. It wasn't a long menu - a good thing - and my order came quite quickly. It turned out to be a wonderful meal. There was a larb salad with generous amounts of fried catfish in flakes. I asked for it to be medium spicy and it was just right for my non-Thai palate. The spring rolls with pork filling were crisply fried, yet very light on the oil. Yummy. The raw vegetables on the side apparently accompanied every order; I didn't have to ask for it. Finally, there was sticky rice steamed in a small woven bamboo cylinder. This is a standard part of an Isaan meal. The total bill came to 285 baht, which included a 10 percent Service Charge. But, feeling very satisfied with the meal (and the scenery), I still added a small amount as extra tip. Although it looked like a small place, there were quite a number of tables. There was a terrace that might be perfect during the cooler season, and there was also a mezzanine floor inside. On the glass front were a number of Michelin decals. I don't know much about such things, since I'm one for the simpler things in life, but this may mean something for those in the know.

Even when a business appears to be doing well, they can still close. First of all, their bottom line may not have been as good as one thinks. Even when custiomer traffic looks good, the cost base could be ruinous. Another possibility is that, as others in the know have reported here, Lucky Boys being a joint venture between Fresh Boys and one other bar (can someone remind me which one?), the partners might have fallen out. This is quite common when circumstances take a sudden turn for the worse, e.g. the onset of Covid and the partners cannot agree how to proceed or how to share the losses. Or simply, as in the case of Tawan's old location, the landlord just wouldn't renew the lease - for reasons unrelated to the health of the bar business.

K-Man Spa sent me loads of boys’ pictures over Line. I knew that they couldn’t possibly all be there and waiting for customers and that I was expected to pre-book. So I assiduously went through all the pictures and shortlisted four. I Lined back and asked which might be available at a certain time. It took no more than 10 minutes for the reply that one of them was, and so an appointment was fixed. Although I gave myself 45 minutes to get to Saphan Kwai BTS station, the BTS ride, including changing trains at Siam, took only about 20 minutes. Adding in walking time from Raya Hotel to Saladaeng station, it took me just 30 minutes at most. K-Man Spa was just down the stairs from Saphan Khwai at the southeast corner of the station; it took no time at all to get to its front door. The chosen – let’s call him Teyko – was waiting. After the brief protocols in the reception where the manager asked me to choose the aroma oil and where I was served some cold water, Teyko led me to the third floor (i.e. fourth level) where the room was. Based on a quick glance, they seem to have assigned the first floor as a waiting area for the boys, and the massage rooms are all on the second and third floors. Anyone with difficulty with steep stairs might want to think twice. The room had a massage table, with a perfectly serviceable face-cradle occluded by a bed sheet. This practice is so common in Thailand, I am no longer surprised. It didn’t come with an attached shower. This was down the hallway. Teyko commenced the massage in his towel – which wasn’t a good sign, but after about 15 minutes, it was dropped without any need for me to tug it away. He began with dry presses before proceeding to oil. He knew quite a few different strokes, which means he’s been through proper training, but his pressure was on the light side. It is not easy for masseurs to know how much pressure a client likes, and so it is important to tell him. Still, he had a tendency to revert to his usual, relatively light pressure a little while each time after I told him to increase it. Although I had booked a 90-minute, I was disappointed too with the coverage. In 60 minutes, I don’t expect the massage to cover much more than the basic areas: back of legs, back and shoulders. In 90 minutes, I’d expect attention to more areas as well, such as the arms, front of legs, and chest. Teyko didn’t seem to have a clearly defined programme that distinguished between 60 and 90 minutes. The afters were enjoyable enough though. He was easily hard. That said, I don’t think I am a demanding person and should be easy to please. At this point, some readers may be hoping for a blow by blow account, but sorry, it’s not my style to get to that level of detail. What I can say is that Teyko was an S2 according to ShamelessMack's "famous" classification system. To round off the session, he offered to shower with me - an offer gladly accepted. He was sweet and good-looking but unfortunately, he spoke next to no English and there is only that much one can do through Google Translate. So, much as I’d like to, I found out very little about him. In total, I spent about one hour 25 minutes there. K-Man Spa’s pricelist showed 60-minutes to be 500 baht for oil massage (550 for aroma massage) and 600 baht for 90-minutes. The manager mentioned something about a minimum tip of 1,000 baht. Their advertising mentioned something about promotions, but either I was outside the applicable time period or it was conveniently forgotten in my case. Overall – would I go back to K-Man Spa again? Yes. Would I choose Teyko again? I think so.

Host boy is not as easy as it sounds. It requires language (English, Japanese, Chinese) and conversational skills. Just last night, I saw a bunch of women call a boy down from the stage only to discover within 5 minutes that no conversation could be had and sent him back. They probably tipped him and he'd get his 100 baht from the boy drink, so he didn't do too badly out of that, I suppose, 😛

There may be something to the post COVID angle. Some might have put on the kilos and know they won't look good in tight briefs now. But the bigger picture is this: pre or post COVID, the vast majority of people won't be caught dead gyrating away on a stage in underwear, so gogoboys has always been minority vocation. Each cohort in turn had suffered the ravages of age and moved on, to be replaced by the next cohort. Maybe the question is why the new cohort is smaller than the previous. Rising prosperity?

There's another possible reason: the manager and mamasans were all wearing suits. Part of the "higher class" look that they're aiming for, perhaps? They won't feel the cold, and think the airconditioning is just fine, while the boys and customers freeze their male-tits off. In a sense, one can say, even in the simple matter of temperature control, the (misguided) business design has closed off a feedback loop.

In New Twilight, shirts, jeans, shoes. Others reported that they are less dressed (exactly what?) after a certain late hour, but I didn't stay past 11:10pm at most. Can't report on what they wear later in the evening, even if that's the case.

White shorts. And I mean shorts, not bermudas. No shirts.

I can see no reason to visit New Twilight again until it has substantially impoved. Numazu has given a detailed description of the interior in his post of July 18, 2022 (thread: https: // www.gayguides.com/forums/topic/37995-bangkok-trip-report-2022-the-wait-is-over-what-was-i-waiting-for/page/3/). I will just list here my immediate (and similar to others') impressions on entering (about 10pm): Large hall; Quite large stage with underfoot lighting and a massive video screen as backdrop; Ear-piercingly loud music; Cold airconditioning; Seats quite far from stage. Boys were fully dressed in shirts, jeans and shoes. After seating me, papasan informed me: Drink = 350 baht. Off fee 500 baht. Recommended tip for boy 2,000 baht. After 10 minutes, a few more observations: Only eight boys on rotation; Boys were all "standard twinks" (to distinguish them from "skinny twinks"), in their twenties; There were only 3 other customers in the bar at 10pm. There were - 3 or 4 papasans - maybe 5 waiters, - a bar tender, - a DJ, - and one of the former top dancers in Moonlight (there was even a Youtube video that featured his life) whose role was not clear to me, but he was definitely not one of the rotating boys (he could be the choreographer), - a manager, - 2 barkers and greeters at the front door In other words, staff outnumbered customers 4 or 5 to 1 Generally, their rotation boys were (in my estimation at least) almost all quite good looking and of "off-able" quality. However, not a single one made eye contact with customers or smiled. By 10:30, there were about 8 customers (including me). The show began and some cross-dressers came on to lip-sync, with 3 or 4 of the boys as backing dancers. Each lip-sync item was interspersed with another item done only by the same 3 - 4 boys. (Obviously, the other 4 boys didn't want to dance). As the fith and final item, five outsourced street dancers ("B-Boys") did a number. Halfway through the show, one of the customers lit up - so they allow smoking inside - which meant I left as soon as the show was over. The 3 - 4 boys who performed at least did so stripped down to underwear. But no cocks seen. Then at 11pm, rotation resumed and it was fully-clothed boys on stage again. I was on my way out. In my one hour there, I didn't see any customer take an off. In the minutes prior to the showtime, I had the opportunity to talk to a 30-ish guy introduced to me by a papasan as the manager. I wanted to stress to him the absurdity of running a gogo bar with fully-clothed boys and deafening music. We went on to discuss a bit more about the challenges of staying in business. Given the deafening music and language gap, it wasn't easy to maintain a coherent conversation, so all I have a a rough sense, reading between the lines of his responses. He volunteered that their location already put them at a disadvantage; He mentioned something about the difficulty of attracting gogoboys should they insist that they strip down on stage ("Boy don't want to work here."). I would have thought that if that's the boy's position, then this cannot possibly be a vocation for him, but New Twlight might think differently. I tried to ask about tea money and if there were different rates for strip bars versus jeans-and-shirts bars, but got nowhere (or he didn't understand my question); When I asked how they expected to compete against the other bars, especially given their locational disadvantage, he mentioned "But have you seen our show?" The conversation went on a bit following the last point, so I shall summarise my take-aways: They're a bunch of people, starting from the owner down, who somehow think that business success in this sector hinges on a super show. ("Ah, that's why they've spent tons of money building an opera house!", I said to myself). They seem to think that if the show is great, there would be customers, and as a trickle down effect, there would be offs. I would have thought the opposite. Intimacy and contact should be what counts, not dazzle and spectacle. Getting offs for the boys should be the #1 business aim. That means hiring plenty of boys, seducing your customers with lots of skin and keeping prices reasonable. There are many ways to get that boy-customer interaction which gogo bars in Thailand hardly even try: table dancing close up (unlike the opera house distance between seats and stage that they have); private dances (500 baht for 15 minutes in a cabin at the back?); boys circulating among customers and chatting a little bit without immediately demanding that customers buy a boy drink for one minute of hopeless language-barriered "what is your name? where are you from? how long you stay Thailand?" fun games with discounted off-fees as prizes to customers. Coming back to tea money as a possibility for clothed boys. I thought this might be the case at first, but later came to the view this was probably not so. While it is possible that without enough tea money, the powers-that-be might frown on boys parading in underwear, thus compelling them to put on jeans, I can't imagine that the powers-that-be also compel them to put on shirts. I think it's an internal policy of New Twilight. Given the size of their space and the large number of staff relative to customers, the running costs (e.g. airconditioning and wages) must be higher than other bars. Fresh Boys had half the space, 30 boys, 3 mamasans (one doubling up as show MC), one DJ, one bartender, 2 barkers and 3 waiters (total 10 employees) serving easily 25 - 30 customers (as at start of showtime). No cross-dressers for their show, so they don't have to pay for outside talent. And there, I saw at least 3 offs in the half hour before showtime.

Thank you @10tazione

This thought occurred to me too, but it's only one of several possibilities. For now, I think a more likely explanation is that they're trying to emulate the "higher class" bars like Jupiter and Moonlight. Even Dream Boys has their boys in jeans, and New Twilight thinks that this is the way to go. My observation so far is that the bars with the skimpiest dress like Tawan, Freshboys and Hotmale are the ones getting the most offs. Would like to hear others' observations too.

Thanks for the suggestion z909. My google translate of the Thai words above the figure "200" came out as "cut - vowel -set". I think my guess is right... it's the price of a haircut, maybe it also includes wash and dry?

I had a dire need for a haircut, and as I arrived at Saladaeng Station (coming from the airport), I noticed a "David no.5" barbershop right where the steps from the station reach the street level (on the same side of Silom Road as the massage shops). The following morning, I enquired how much a basic haricut would be. The guy at the door said 350 baht. For Thailand this didn't sound right and so I declined. I walked around the Silom area a bit and couldn;t see any other barbershop. Stupid me forgot about the upstairs barbershop on the opposite side of Silom Road which I had patronised many times before. See what Covid does to one's memory of Bangkok? I can't recall what its charges were but I'd be mightily surprised if they were anything like 350 baht. Back in the hotel room, I surfed the net and found a recommendation for a place in Sukhumvit Soi 23 charging "local prices". I went there; it was not hard to find, only about 100m northwards from the junction of Sukhumvit Road and Soi 23, and about two-thirds of the way towards Soi Cowboy. Here's a map and a photo of the shop sign. Lex Barber had 2 barbers working there and no one waiting. So I was attended to immediately. It's an old-fashioned barbershop with nothing fancy, but they gave me a nice enough haircut the old-fashioned way. That's all I needed. I was out of there within 15 - 20 minutes and only 150 baht poorer. Then as life has it, I began to see barbershops all over the place. You know how it is. You look and look for one thing, and as soon as you have found it, you start seeing a similar thing everywhere you turn. Immediately on walking out of Soi 23, I saw a barberhop right across Sukhumvit Road. It's name was "G Club". Hmm, interesting choice of name, I thought, so I crossed the road to take a closer look. And what did I see? On its glass front was its price: 600 baht. Madness! Then on my way to Sabardee Spa, walking from Lumpini MRT station, I saw another barber shop "TJ Design". This one was on the southwest side of Rama 4 Road right where the first overhead bridge is after crossing Soi Ngam Dupli. A paper sign on its door said 200 baht. I can't read the Thai words but I reckon it refers to a haricut. I carried on walking up the overhead bridge, down again and into Soi Plukjit. Not 100 metres into the soi I saw yet another barbershop. Then another, and another. Altogether there were five within a stone's throw of each other. I didn't enquire about their prices, but looking at how they're tucked away behind phone stands, clothes sellers and food stalls in a shantytown, there's no need to ask. Haircut adventures were not what I planned for this visit to Thailand, but it's interesting - and fun! - when it happens. None of the barbershops looked busy. In only one case did a customer walk into one, sit down and begin getting his hair cut while I was taking pictures. A big farang guy went into G Club. Yes, the shop charging 600 baht. And here I was going to write, "I wonder how they stay in business with those prices?"

I visited New Twilight too though I haven't yet had time to write. Numazu's impressions are similar to mine, but I'm more with z909 in terms of opinion. I also spoke with the manager and gained some insight into what business plan they had. They will need very deep pockets to last to the high season given their running costs and their currently poor footfall.

In my case, I think only two that were around on my first visit are still around today: Tawan in Bangkok and BoyzBoyzBoyz in Pattaya. I'm pretty sure about Tawan, but not so sure about the latter. To be frank, I don't even think about the past much. So excuse me if my memory is hazy.