macaroni21

I recall there was a thread earlier about Thailand trying to insist that all arrivals present proof of travel insurance, an idea that I think has since been abandoned, and it was pointed out that in practice it would be madness because insurance policies come in all shapes and sizes and different languages to boot. How would any officer at Thai immigration be able to check whether the document is what the traveller claims it is? As for young Aussies and selling their homes... there is another way to make some money to pay medical bills: sell their bodies. I can imagine a niche market for "fun" with someone in a leg cast and an arm in a sling, though bleeding wounds might not command much market value. 🤣

We agree on this. But you are still conflating discrimination because of some statute or cultural disfavour with persecution. Persecution has to be demonstrated as real, imminent and personal, not theoretical, even if laws are not codifying it. If a gay person has received death threats, or been arrested before, or been bashed in an alley with the authorities taking no action, that person may make a case for asylum. Ditto a gay woman whose very conservative family (including the village community where she lives) is forcing her, on threat of death (honour killing) to marry a man in an arranged marriage. However, the presence of discriminatory laws itself is insufficient. It does not rise to the level of persecution. Look no further than the active threads in other parts of this forum about sex trips to Jamaica, North Africa, Malaysia, and some countries of Subsaharan Afirca.

Besides the question of how many among the 60,000 who swam across the fence were gay and whether that miniscule number, if any, would justify giving all 60,000 temporary asylum so that they can be processed over the next few years to find that miniscule number, there is another loose use of a word we need to be aware of. Discrimination is not persecution. If discrimination alone were enough to justify refugee status, then all 8 billion people on earth would qualify. Everyone is discriminated on one count or another -- too old, too young, too fat, too thin, too female, too male, too tall, too short, too colorblind, too bipolar... including through legally sanctioned barriers on account of religion, place of birth, previous criminal convictions and countless other dimensions. Laws against homosex are not uniquely terrible and do not rise to the level of persecution.

The choice of words can so confuse that a conversation goes heywire. These 60,000 people breaching the border in Ceuta are not refugees. Too often this word is used loosely in discourse. Refugees are people fleeing demonstrable threats to life and limb (e.g. from conflict or natural disasters) or persecution in their home countries. These young men (and they were mostly young men) were simply hoping to rush into the EU, in violation of border laws, for economic reasons. Several of them spoke to the media, and they themselves have openly said this was their motive. Any sympathy needs to be calibrated against this reality rather than be dialled up by the misuse of the word 'refugee'. That they were fleeing nothing can be seen from the fact that over 48,000 of them so far have peacefully returned to Morocco, albeit under heavy security pressure. The videos also show that many of them are not even Moroccan but Subsaharan. Reporters have pointed out that in the past, the Moroccan government has aided or encouraged border storming for political purposes whenever they were unhappy with Spain or the EU, e.g. in pursuit of their (Morocco's) imperialistic ambitions over Western Sahara or over their feud with Algeria. Whether this instance had any government involvement, nobody can yet say. This reminds me of Belarus using migrants to put pressure on Poland and the EU a few years back. Members here of more leftwing persuasion should be careful of what they wish for. Misplaced sympathy for economic border-violators and the loose border control that results will lead to a local population developing a sense that their own security and social balance are under threat. No use arguing if this is empirically true, for feelings are powerful factors when it comes to voting. Once people get the feeling that their own government has lost control of their country's borders, there is a much greater likelihood of voting for rightwing parties, whose agenda on many other issues, e.g. LGBT rights, social safety net, may be contrary to leftwing ideals. I am sure I don't have to list examples of how often this has happened in recent history. In short, misplaced sympathy is a big, big own goal.

Circling back to the subject of Indian tourists in Pattaya, here's something from The Pattaya News, 2 days ago. Members living in Thailand may follow this channel, but those outside may not, so I hope it's interesting news -- even if rather horrific!

You guys may be confusing Fast Track with Priority Lane.

Maybe we risk over analysing or over simplifying the giving face/losing face issue. After all, people in Western cultures also understand the value of not causing embarrassment to others. On the other hand, and with a bit of reflection, the video narrator's point about certain cultures giving more weight to context could prove more helpful in understanding behaviours. It seems to me that in certain cultures (we may tend to speak of Western cultures, but I am pretty sure that's both over-inclusive and under-inclusive at the same time) there's a greater reliance on explicitly stated boundaries, whereas in other cultures, people aren't so exercised if things are left unsaid. Furthermore, particularly in American culture, there is a valorisation of attempts to test or push the boundaries -- we see in media depictions of heroes who go right up to the edge of the permissible or even flout the rules and not only get away with doing so, but winning the day to cheers all round. The valorisation of individualism goes with it. Other cultures may consider this too brash, even uncouth. They expect members of the community to be alert to non-verbal cues and situational settings and to modify one's behaviour accordingly in a way that is respectful of others. In a sense, one might say such a culture has a higher quotient of communalism. It has struck me that many older Hollywood depictions of Asian males almost take this to paper-thin stereotypes: where the Asian character is a man of few words, with some supposedly sagacious characters speaking in riddles, but also they are receding characters, not pushing their way forward. And as has often been pointed out, the Asian male in such Hollywood productions are not generally seen as heroic, or even sexy -- by Western audiences. That digression having been done with, here's another: on some other threads in the Thailand forum, we regularly see Western visitors who are less frequent visitors to Thailand asking questions about how one would know whether the shop or boy would be H or not H -- I think folks who are unfamiliar with Thailand also have difficulty distinguishing been S and SS -- and how much to tip, and so on. They display a great need for explicitly stated information about offerings, limits and costs. The Thais and frequent visitors to this country (and expats) seem to have no need for such explicit information. They do need some clues (and have learned how to spot the clues) but they don't need to have all the T's crossed and I's dotted. In the moment itself, they work out what's possible and what's not and how to navigate their way to what they would desire. The older ones among us who used to cruise in parks and alleyways in the pre-internet age were masters of unspoken context, body language and signals to figure out a situation. Perhaps the newer, younger members of this board never developed such skills for lack of learning opportunties?

This video is about the bunch of Italian exchange students who caused a furore earlier this month. I am putting it here because the narrator explains very well the huge cultural gap (not just on the part of the kids, but the teachers too) that laid the ground for the incident. For about two minutes from 16 minutes 30, the narrator puts it succinctly. Thai culture is a high context culture, whereas most Western cultures are low context cultures. As a result, Westerners do not learn, when growing up, to read social and situational context the way Thais and many East Asian societies do, or give these readings the weight that is required. This is inseparable from the issue of giving face, which I discussed in an earlier post on this thread (9 July).

Well said! Sometimes, attention seekers are great fun too, such as those who like to hang over a balcony with their arse out in full view, while being jackhammered.

Back to the original topic about ncreasing homophobia in Islamic countries (maybe other countries too), here's a news story about Indonesia from Channel News Asia, dated yesterday: https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/lgbtq-indonesia-defence-policy-national-security-threat-6255191 How a national security threat label has reignited Indonesia's LGBTQ debate Indonesia last October classified the "spread of LGBTQ culture" as one of the country's non-military threats. A series of developments thrust the provision into the public eye this month, sparking a debate. For more than eight months, a provision tucked away in an Indonesian presidential regulation on national defence drew little public attention. In an appendix to Presidential Regulation No. 111/2025 on the General National Defence Policy signed in October last year, the government classified the "spread of LGBTQ culture" as one of the country's non-military threats. The clause, referring to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transsexual and queer culture, appeared alongside a range of other threats deemed capable of affecting national resilience. They included illegal trafficking, natural resource theft, terrorism, atheism and radicalism. A presidential regulation is a legally binding regulation published in the State Gazette, while General National Defence Policy documents are highly technical and usually attract little public attention outside government and defence circles. But a series of developments thrust the provision into the public eye this month, sparking a debate on the place of LGBTQ issues in state policy and the extent to which social issues should be framed within Indonesia's defence strategy. The issue quickly spread beyond social media into mainstream Indonesian media with national outlets including Antara, Kumparan, and Tempo examining the regulation and prompting public responses from senior government officials. Some observers and activists say the clause could heighten discrimination against LGBTQ individuals in society, even as Indonesian ministers have defended the regulation while saying the government has no intention of curtailing the fundamental rights of citizens. "As Indonesian citizens, LGBTQ people are entitled to education, employment, healthcare and other public services without restrictions, segregation or discrimination," Indonesia's Human Rights Minister Natalius Pigai told CNA in a phone interview. But he added that Indonesian society is not ready to accept the LGBTQ community, even as the state remains obliged to respect, protect and fulfil every citizen's rights to education, employment, healthcare and public services. "The time has not yet come to formally recognise them as an official group because society is not yet ready to accept them," he said. --- read more via the link; there's no paywall. It's a long article.

I haven't been back to Phuket for ages so there's no recommendation to contribute. But I have an indelible memory of overcharging by tuktuks, with one of the worst cases involving a trip between Patong and Karon. Unless the situation has vastly improved, how does one even get to a restaurant at a different beach without being scalped?

What file? Not safe to assume that that there is a file or that they can retrieve it. There was a report a year or so back that, if I remember correctly, the system ran out of memory and all that business of pressing your fingers on that glass gadget generated no store-able record. Apparently the people at the top knew about it, but either didn't bother, didn't understand, or had no budget to purchase more memory storage. But the pressing of fingers on glass continued because that was the STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE, which one shall not depart from. Either that, or it was too embassassing to stop doing so because that would be an admission that their much-vaunted hi-tech solution ("Thailand is a state-of-the-art first-world country", remember?) wasn't working.

Nothing much new in this video, except for the floor plan. For a place licensed as a restaurant, look how small the kitchen is; surely no one should be fooled into thinking it was a restaurant.

That's more like it. All that earlier talk about divas... well, let's just say, it wasn't working its magic on me. (Not that I am anywhere near Jomtien anyway, haha)

Trump is so mercurial and the situation so fluid that even if people say they have seen no cancellations, is that any assurance what tomorrow or the next week may bring? I just heard, well maybe not 'just' but a week ago, from my brother in law that a couple of months ago when he to had to go to Germany for a conference after a few days stopover in Hong Kong (family matter, I believe), he chose a Chinese airline to get from HK to Frankfurt via Shanghai or Beijing (can't remember which he said it was). He didn't want any risk of cancellation too. The route over Russia was relatively quick, he said. Russian airspace isn't closed to Chinese airlines. What I don't know (I didn't ask) was the price advantage or disadvantage, but I had the sense that peace of mind was worth paying for, if necessary. Perhaps you could explore a similar alternative routing via China. Since you were going to transfer in Amman anyway, changing in Shanghai or Beijing isn't an added inconvenience.

Thanks, @bkkmfj2648 for the link to Motionspa. But here's the funny thing. Despite @18past19 having the hots for one guy there and then having the time of his life in a visit, when I scrolled through the "pherlatist" pictures, none, absolutely none gave me the flutters. This only goes to show how taste differs!

But just next to this thread is another which reports that US-issued Wise cards don't work in Cambodia. I'm sure @jimmie50 has seen that thread. Fortunately that same thread has suggested alternatives.

Just because one can use US dollar bills doesn't mean one should. I had an entire trip using only riel, and trust me it was far simpler and more efficient. And the notes were newer and cleaner. Just get a bank card that is accepted widely including in Cambodia and withdraw riel from ATMs. If you need a starting amount of riel before your first chance to withdraw from an ATM, surely Cam can lend you some.

@Shax The general rule in Thailand (and in many other countries) is that the more upscale a place, the more you must be careful to give face. That is to say, these upscale places want to maintain a clean public image, while somehow providing the commercially lucrative services and you must play along. The above is easy enough to understand as a concept, I am sure, but I think where the difficulty lies, especially for Westerners (and I suspect Americans have the greatest difficulty with cross-cultural issues) is the question "what exactly does 'give face' mean in terms of the nuts and bolts of behaviour?" It's not difficult to learn. Most Western expats pick up fairly quickly what Thais mean by giving face. In the specific example of TCS Spa, you can tell that it is an upmarket place from the photos on their website. Straight away, you should pigeonhole it as one of those places where your interaction must be one that helps them preserve a public image of a clean proper massage shop. So, as a stranger -- and a customer is a stranger -- you never talk about sex or ask any question about sex with management. Doing so would put them on the spot that is the total opposite of giving face. Yes, you select your masseur (they are so upscale, they even call them "therapists") at the time of booking. On arrival, the boy may even go through the pantomime of taking out a clipboard and a form and doing a questionnaire with you about which parts of your body needs more work or less, which parts have had previous injuries, etc. You have to play along with this theatre, even though, as @vinapu says, the actual massage standard in the hour to follow may be no more than "decorum". Even in the privacy of the room, it is best (i.e. least likely to cause offence and loss of face) to let the boy initiate the first erotic move. Do not be the one to initiate discussion about extra services. Let him go through the motion of giving a proper massage first. The boy may initiate funtime through strategic touching, or may even pose a question like "Sir, how do you want to finish?" Even though you're in the privacy of the room, you need to be subtle in replying, e.g. "Can you take off your shirt?", "have you done body to body before?" To maintain face, every question should be very carefully phrased so that he can say no gracefully -- that's the art of giving face. Note: I said ask questions, not make requests. At each step, let him notch the conversation up and you follow. Even on the question of money, let him initiate a request. He may say "Can you increase your tip if I do this?" As others have advised (and my personal experience too) hand job and body to body is about as far as most boys will go. If you want insertive work, choose a less upscale place, especially if you're the type that must have every service detail spelled out from the very start and want to have management answer your queries.

Hmmm... Sounds like @vinapu has snuck into Thailand and Jupiter bar like the Cambodians. 🤔

A peak inside Boycamp Bangkok:

@Londoner what you're saying is that Thailand as a destination will survive, but the gay bar scene that you and your informant enjoyed will not -- if it isn't on its deathbed already. I agree. But what also needs to be said is that Bangkok's massage sector and the Silom 2-type dance bars is probably going to continue doing fine, even if competition remains fierce and establishments come and go (novelty factor at play). Notably, these are geared to the Asian traffic, not the farang visitor of old. Where does that leave Pattaya? Probably nowhere. @Vessey above describes a revitalisation of a soi, but it sounded like it was still aimed at the farang market (or maybe the Indian market, but bear in mind Indians' spending power is very limited on the whole). The problem with Pattaya is that few gay businesses have figured out the importance of the Asian market for its future, let alone the importance of marketing. And so they're missing a huge opportunity.

This is interesting information even if I have no plans to be in Bangkok on said date. But here's a question that I have wondered about for some time: What exactly is Massage Insider? It's clearly not a massage shop. Is it like a network of callboys? Or is it a discussion forum where punters share tips about callboys' performances? As for the anniversary party, apparently with several rentboys in attendance, I am guessing that some people would buy tickets for the opportunity of meeting those boys, presumably with the possibility of arranging appointments in the following days. I'm just speculating how this business model works. If anyone knows more or can tell me my guesses are wrong, please let us hear from you.

I think you should specify that by "you all" you actually mean other US folks. My sense is that the majority of members here are not from the US and they won't have the same problem as you. So, like me, they won't be in a position to give you a relevant reply. However a brief Google search reveals that ATMs in Cambodia will dispense cash against Visa and MasterCards, even US-issued ones. If another US traveller has experience actually doing that, then hopefully he will reassure you that the Google result is true.

Some of them don't even wait till they're out of shape to start looking for new work. They know they're aging out of the scene. I have a memory of a guy from a bar who said we wouldn't need to walk back to the hotel; he had a bike. When I got to his parked bike, I saw a Grab jacket and even a Grab helmet. He explained that he was a Grab motosai driver in the day. Good for you -- I thought.