Chat with Thai boys, desperate conditions in Pattaya?

[Guest beachlover]

I don't agree with that statement at all. I don't give to the beggars. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. And it has nothing to do with making me feel good. It has to do with common sense. You almost never see the same beggars in the same place more than once. Many are incapacitated. Ever wonder how they got there? Ever wonder where they disappear to at the end of the day? Ever wonder how they know where the most likely lucrative begging spots happen to be? Ever wonder what becomes of the money they collect? I never see any of them trying to buy anything anywhere. Ever notice how most of them don't talk? That's because most of them can't speak Thai. You know why? Most are not Thai.

 

I have no way to prove they are mafia controlled, but people in a position to know these things have been telling me for many years all about it and that the mafia keeps 80% of what they manage to collect.

 

But even if that's not true. Even if the beggars are able to keep every baht they collect, I still won't give them anything at all. That's everybody's individual decision. If you want to give them money, go right ahead, but don't expect me to do the same.

 

I think that's a good policy. They're not adding any value to anyone and sometimes they actually obstruct the footpath during busy times when that space could be used by people to get past faster.

[Guest YardenUK]

Going back to Christian's original thread, if you have the opportunity to ever go to where many of these guys come from, it is a true eye opener, and can often put things into some sort of perspective.

 

I had the opportunity to spend 3 weeks in a tiny village 20 minutes by moped from the nearest town in deepest northern Thailand. I saw for my own eyes where they grew up and where their extended families live and work to survive. These guys often come from what is simply extreme poverty in western terms. The buildings that they call home are extremely basic, with running water only available outside. Air conditioning didn't even come into the equation. The whole family works hard simply to survive. And, I guess if any of the children do move to the cities for "work", close family ties and expectations of a better "income" means the families back in the villages do expect some financial contribution. That is another pressure (not to mention the whole concept of saving face). It is also fair to point out they do not have an enhanced welfare system western societies have, which can in some way support those on low incomes or unemployed.

 

I am not excusing the behaviour of guys who outright ask for cash up front, but thanks to my stay in a poor village, I did start to put their behaviour into context. I am thankful I don't have to waken up every morning with my "survival" instinct to the fore. But, there are many well presented beautiful young Thai guys in Bangkok & Pattaya who literally do have to survive from one day to the next. Yes, many will squander some of their "income" on a hair cut, new clothes, booze, or partying, but even then I think, shouldn't everyone have the opportunities to spoil themselves and enjoy the life they have once in a while? We can't expect every guy to be the prudent saver living a life of frugality with every Baht they get/earn.

 

So my broad point is that by living where some of these guys come from and realising how poverty compels one's survival instinct to be very enhanced, I started to understand what makes some of them ask outright for money or expect (rightly), to have things bought/paid for them. Poverty is a surely a great motivator for being more direct in asking for financial help?

 

I do not condone this MSN tactic - he will learn to be subtler and more effective eventually - but I do in some way understand where it comes from.

[Bob]

Very good points and perspective, YardenUK. And, just so we don't see this as a "Thai only" issue, a whole lot of 18-25 year-old kids throughout the world are pretty damn foolish with their money (and blow every baht, dollar, euro, etc., they can get their hands on). Heck, I was regularly broke and scrambling for every dollar I could get until I completed my formal education at age 25 (and, come to think of it, for a few years after that too!).

[Guest YardenUK]

..... I was regularly broke and scrambling for every dollar I could get until I completed my formal education at age 25 (and, come to think of it, for a few years after that too!).

 

ditto

[Guest]

Heck, I was regularly broke and scrambling for every dollar I could get until I completed my formal education at age 25 (and, come to think of it, for a few years after that too!).

 

Ditto. But, I was 32 before I finished my formal schooling. I guess that means I learn slower than most.

[kokopelli]

I think that's a good policy. They're not adding any value to anyone and sometimes they actually obstruct the footpath during busy times when that space could be used by people to get past faster.

 

I love your response beachlover. I hope it was a form of sarcasm? If they are limbless or blind I usually give them a kick and then scurry off.

[Bob]

But, I was 32 before I finished my formal schooling.

 

Reminds me of Junior from the back hills of Tennessee. After his first gym class in third grade, he asked his mom as to why he was so different (you know, bigger down "there") than the other kids. She said: "Well, Junior, you are 23!"

[Guest beachlover]

I love your response beachlover. I hope it was a form of sarcasm? If they are limbless or blind I usually give them a kick and then scurry off.

 

Actually I was serious. I get annoyed at the bums blocking the footpath during peak hour here in Sydney too. Begging might offer some short term relief but it simply isn't (or at least shouldn't be) a 'sustainable' activity. It's not productive.

 

If enough people give them money, they realise they've found an easy way to earn a living and decide to do that, rather than find a role where they will actually be productive and add value. It becomes 'easy money'. It's like welfare (the dole). It reduces incentive to find gainful employment.

 

Don't assume all of these people are pitiful and desperate for survival either... I believe many of them aren't. But they need to look that way to collect donations.

 

In the Sydney CBD there's a restaurant/cafe I like to chill out in sometimes. I go there, get my laptop out and do a bit of work. It's in a little shopping arcade.

 

Outside this shopping arcade there's a spot where a bum often kneels down. He purposely looks pityful and miserable at a glance, head bowed, dark, rough clothes, overgrown beard. But if you take more than a passing glance, you'll notice he's quite warm under those thick clothes. And his head is bowed because he's reading a novel or newspaper he is holding in his hand.

 

He lays out a piece of cloth for people to drop money in and the place where he kneels is quite far out from the side of the footpath so he is really in the way. When it's crowded, I actually have to step over his piece of cloth to get past him. What a nuisance.

 

I've noticed when there gets to be too many coins, he folds a piece of the cloth over so people can't see how much he's collected.

 

Anyway, on several occasions I've been sitting at that cafe/restaurant in the arcade when he has come in, walked up to one of the tables, poured a massive pile of coins out onto it and taken his time counting it (while occupying one of the tables). He then goes up to the cafe cashier to change the money into easier to carry notes. There must be at least $100 to $200 each time he does this.

 

He doesn't even both to do it all day... Each day, he just does it for a couple of hours until he thinks he's collected enough money, then changes it at the cafe for notes and goes off to do whatever else he wants to do.

[Guest lvdkeyes]

About 20 years ago on TV in SF they interviewed a "homeless" panhandler. The interviewer asked him, "On average, how much do you collect per day?" His answer was "$130 a day". At that time I was earning just a little bit more than that working my ass off and I had to pay federal, state and local taxes including my contribution to social security. I was tempted to get a cup.

[Guest GaySacGuy]

About 20 years ago on TV in SF they interviewed a "homeless" panhandler. The interviewer asked him, "On average, how much do you collect per day?" His answer was "$130 a day". At that time I was earning just a little bit more than that working my ass off and I had to pay federal, state and local taxes including my contribution to social security. I was tempted to get a cup.

I am sure that some of the cup holders in Bangkok and the freeway offramp sign holders in California are making more per day than a lot of working people...but they aren't making it from me..especially those that are taking other peoples kids to beg for them.

[Guest beachlover]

About 20 years ago on TV in SF they interviewed a "homeless" panhandler. The interviewer asked him, "On average, how much do you collect per day?" His answer was "$130 a day". At that time I was earning just a little bit more than that working my ass off and I had to pay federal, state and local taxes including my contribution to social security. I was tempted to get a cup.

 

Shit... $130 would have been a lot 20 years ago. Probably equivalent to double that now.

 

I know buskers who routinely make $300 a day... But I say good on them, if they're providing good entertainment or raising the atmosphere of a place.

[Guest]

I know buskers who routinely make $300 a day... But I say good on them, if they're providing good entertainment or raising the atmosphere of a place.

 

A good busker adds something to the immediate surroundings. Providing they do not obstruct the flow of pedestrians & play something tasteful, good luck to them.

 

On the other hand, people who beg by obstructing the pavements in the most deliberately undignified manner are a damn nuisance & ideally no one would give them any money at all for this.

[kokopelli]

Actually I was serious. I get annoyed at the bums blocking the footpath during peak hour here in Sydney too. Begging might offer some short term relief but it simply isn't (or at least shouldn't be) a 'sustainable' activity. It's not productive.

 

 

Even if serious, I found your comment about beggars blocking the sidewalk very amusing.

In Pattaya blocking sidewalks seems to be a way of life whether by beggars, merchants, motorbikes, cars, people, construction or any other way to confound the pedestrian.

[Guest beachlover]

Heh... yeah, there is obviously some tongue in cheek in these comments.

 

One of the worst things used to be (might still be) the beggars making their way up and down Silom Road during the nightmarket when the foothpath is already as packed as it is. It was usually some elaborate setup, like one crawling and shaking along, or one blind guy singing while a woman carries a speaker, which took up even MORE room. Damn nuisance...

[Guest YardenUK]

One of the worst things used to be (might still be) the beggars making their way up and down Silom Road during the nightmarket when the foothpath is already as packed as it is. It was usually some elaborate setup, like one crawling and shaking along, or one blind guy singing while a woman carries a speaker, which took up even MORE room. Damn nuisance...

 

 

Gosh, we see the world so differently - I know the set-up you mean - but "there but for the grace of God go I" usually comes to my mind - blind in an urban poor environment in Thailand, with few State support mechanisms for blind/disabled people. And, they don't just ask for money, the sing too (OK it may not be the next winner of Thailand's Got Talent, but at least they are trying to give someting back/provide some "service" for the few satang or Baht they make). These types of beggars I have no qualms with at all, and I never met any Thai people who did either.

[Guest HeyGay]

Unfortunately this can happen in many countries of the world, there come a time you have to realize its not the business for you and find a job where you do earn a living, so much work around, but may Thai guys are lazy they want to party with there friends and are not prepared to work in 7/11 or Toyota car factory or Big C .

 

Dont worry their friends will give them food and he will give them food when he has money.

 

Its just another ruse to get you to send money.

[Guest beachlover]

Gosh, we see the world so differently - I know the set-up you mean - but "there but for the grace of God go I" usually comes to my mind - blind in an urban poor environment in Thailand, with few State support mechanisms for blind/disabled people. And, they don't just ask for money, the sing too (OK it may not be the next winner of Thailand's Got Talent, but at least they are trying to give someting back/provide some "service" for the few satang or Baht they make). These types of beggars I have no qualms with at all, and I never met any Thai people who did either.

 

Well, we know there's a lack of state support and welfare etc. for people who are blind or disabled in many Asian countries.

 

I don't have an issue with these guys singing and such. It's the fact that they take up room and block the way, ambling along slowly in an insanely crowded and already difficult to navigate footpath. How inconsiderate.

 

If you've ever tried to get from A to B on Silom Road during peak times in high season you'd know what I mean. It's an ordinary footpath made into a single-lane footpath obstructed by lots of street stalls and jammed with lots of pedestrians. Progress is painstakingly slow. Getting from Soi 4 to Soi 2 seems to take 10-15 mins when they're really only 2 minutes apart sometimes. Sometimes I feel like pushing these arseholes aside...

[Guest lvdkeyes]

I guess it is inconsiderate to be blind and have to walk slowly.

[Guest YardenUK]

 

 

If you've ever tried to get from A to B on Silom Road during peak times in high season you'd know what I mean. It's an ordinary footpath made into a single-lane footpath obstructed by lots of street stalls and jammed with lots of pedestrians. Progress is painstakingly slow. Getting from Soi 4 to Soi 2 seems to take 10-15 mins when they're really only 2 minutes apart sometimes. Sometimes I feel like pushing these arseholes aside...

 

......I go onto Silom Road itself, behind the stalls to get from Soi 4 to Soi 2, and avoid the pavement crowds - a much quicker route - being full-sighted I can also see any oncoming traffic, something blind people may find a tad difficult...

[Guest beachlover]

I guess it is inconsiderate to be blind and have to walk slowly.

 

No, but it's inconsiderate to do this deliberately (or run a mafia, which directs people to do this) to put on a show and slow down traffic in an already-crowded area to solicit money by attracting sympathy.

[Guest beachlover]

......I go onto Silom Road itself, behind the stalls to get from Soi 4 to Soi 2, and avoid the pavement crowds - a much quicker route - being full-sighted I can also see any oncoming traffic, something blind people may find a tad difficult...

 

Hey, that's a good idea. I do that myself often, without thinking of it. I should consciously do this next time I'm frustrated at the slow moving traffic!

[Guest GaySacGuy]

......I go onto Silom Road itself, behind the stalls to get from Soi 4 to Soi 2, and avoid the pavement crowds - a much quicker route - being full-sighted I can also see any oncoming traffic, something blind people may find a tad difficult...

 

Actually I find the sidewalk crowd kind of interesting...it is quit a mix of different people, and they aren't going to talk me into buying anything...and some great eye candy.

[Guest beachlover]

Yes, but the cramped space and slow moving crowd are a pain in the arse when you just want to get somewhere.

[Guest GaySacGuy]

So are those cars that are trying to use the same street that you are walking on...and if one is a little out of control...oops!

[Guest beachlover]

No, that wouldn't happen. The Thais are extremely careful, responsible and well-calculated drivers who are very predicable and never make mistakes... lol