hojacat

2 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

Good point. While I doubt if the regulars of Sunnee, being in the main of a certain generation, might adopt technology quite so easily, it is possible that the newer generation of twink-lovers did. So, as Sunnee's reputation went down the toilet, they stayed on the apps rather than travel all the way to Sunnee. This may have contributed to the non-renewal of the Sunnee scene.

 

Good question. If I may speculate:

1. The association with paedophilia caused reputational damage to Sunnee unlike other places.

2. The "product offer" of Sunnee was unusually narrow (fem twinks) and held little attraction to the newer generation of western tourists and Asian clients.

3. As Asian traffic rose, Bangkok had an advantage. Asian tourists tend to make shorter trips, so staying in Bangkok made more sense compared to going all the way to Pattaya (which is also why Pattaya's Boyztown has also seen considerable decline).

Something related to pint 1 and 3. I think the late 2000s and early 2010s were also the time when Pattaya became a bit unappealing to the young Western crowd, as it developed a reputation as just a place for prostitution. That's how I knew it even before my first trip to Thailand in 2009, while still in college. 

Also, isn't that the same period when Russians became the number one tourist group in Pattaya? I might be mistaken but I think Russians are not really into go-go bars. Maybe because of linguistic barriers, the desire to be discreet, etc but if they pay they even their hotel or going to massage places, which I've heard are actually quite popular with Russians.

So I don't know how were things in the early 2000s or what the owners were seeing but 16 go-go places in such a small radius is definitely too many, especially since most of the tourists in your city doesn't care about them.

The reason saunas (which I can confirm personally) and places like Soi 2 and 4 are still going very strong in BKK is exactly because their are being patronized by the main tourist group in Bangkok: Asian travelers. 

Yes, especially now that https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-67516777

7 hours ago, PeterRS said:

why did the customer base that could clearly sustain so many gay bars and go-gos in 2010 all seem to vanish with most closing pre-covid?

Doesn't that coincide with the coming into scene of Grindr and other gay apps? Seems like none of you guys are counting it as a factor into the decline. I mean, it was quite revolutionary. It represents the fastest way to get a guy into your bed, especially if you're willing to pay and you are offered a much larger range of choice  that any bar can offer.. I guess some of the customers in those bars where not really interested in the whole shenanigans of the go-go scene, but were there mostly to off guys. If they could do that online much faster and probably cheaper , they stopped frequenting those bars and do something else with the rest of their night and maybe reduction caused that snowball effect that @macaroni21 is mentioning. 

5 hours ago, PeterRS said:

So it is the gay go-go bar model which I believe will eventually die out, and it will be for a mix of commercial pressures (like Sunee Plaza) and pressure from the elites in 'society'. Girlie bars will probably continue but be even further restricted re where they can operate. 

You're just discussing it from an offer-side perspective. I think the main question is, will the demand still be there for this kind of entertainment? Will a generation that grew up with internet and with having things instantaneously prefer to pay overpriced drinks so he can just chat and observe a guy and only after off him when if he goes online he can get a guy straight to his bed within 5-10 minutes (paid or not).

I know that for most of the people in here is definitely worth it but taste do change. If the demand stays strong then no matter how expensive rent becomes or how strict the police can be, bars will still operate or new ones will open, same as with gay saunas. If the demand starts to disappear than go-gp bars might just end up like those gay porn video stores. I'm sure some of the old timers in here have probably fond memories and stories of them, but hard to justify their existence nowadays.

So I guess none in this forum went to the gay Atlantis cruise last month that started in Singapore and ended up in Pattaya. Was in BKK last month and saw a couple of people with "Atlantis" written on their profile. Kinda regret now not asking any of them how did it go and what the crowd was like. Didn't see anything about it on Twitter, so probably not many onlyfaners ended up going. It's usually the one from Florida in February that uses those big RC ships that attracts the most of them. 

Personally I would use cruises for destinations where a ship is the only or the best way to visit it. So my favorites have been the Norwegian fjords, the Faroe Islands and Greenland, Alaska, etc .Personally would never recommend a cruise in the Mediterranean. It's definitely the worse way to explore that region. Even in some of the smallest islands or towns like Valleta, Mykonos, Zadar, etc you would be rushed when visiting it, let alone exploring bigger cities like Marseilles, Palermo, Valencia, Barcelona, etc. It's truly like going on a buffet and just licking the food.

In the non-gay cruises I have been to, I've always have some crew hit me up on Grindr, but they always make it complicated meeting them , so I have never done it. I end up hooking up with 1-2 fellow passengers each time though. The best I had was on a cruise to the Norwegian fjords. I chatted and got invited for drinks by this young Irish couple. Pretty much only interested in one of them, who was pretty twinkish, which luckily was also verse. They said the knew some executives at MSC so they were able to get a suite for a very good price. After having some champagne, we headed to their place. It was great messing around in the open air jacuzzi in their suite with the fresh air and the stars above us. Things got even more interesting the day after as this cute Asian student from Manchester joined me and them. A long but unforgettable night.

48 minutes ago, macaroni21 said:

I found this site: https://friendlyhotelsguide.com/guest-friendly-hotels-bangkok-thailand/

Someone took a lot of trouble to put the joiner question to numerous hotels. Silom area hotels are below and need scrolling. But that's also when one notices defunct hotels like Om Yin Lodge, Tawana, etc. It's always difficult keeping such information lists up to date.

It would probably be easier and shorter to just list the hotels that are NON-gust friendly, as almost all the hotels in those areas mentioned in the article tend to be very liberal when it comes to having guests in your room. I would also specify when mentioning an hotel, if a key is required for the elevator or not. Pretty much, do you want the guy to come straight to your room or you don't mind pick him down at the lobby.

I would also add Pullman and W Hotel (this one popular especially with Asian gay travelers) in the list of "gay-friendly" hotels, which I guess means an hotel were a good part of the crowd is gay. If so, during NYE or Songran pretty much every hotel in Silom becomes one.

1 hour ago, PeterRS said:

Sorry I just can’t agree with that. As has been stated several times before in this forum, the main reason is the improved economic opportunities for upcountry boys who used to supply most of the gogo bars as a result of Thailand’s considerable economic gains since the 1997 Asian Economic crisis. No longer do most have to work in the rice paddies or do other low paid work in the villages. Escalating rates of HIV and greater emphasis (no more alas) on health education may also have had something to do with it. 
 

I suspect bar owners would prefer more Thais to foreigners, many of whom are here illegally - but that’s just my guess. Another guess is that if there is a major clampdown on undocumented foreigners working in bars, I can’t see more Thai’s jumping in to take their place, even in the case of an economic recession as @reader has suggested. I reckon the apps will have done their job by then and the boys will prefer telephone dates to nightly parading and offs in bars.

 I believe we are saying the same thing. The owners might prefer Thai boys as it means less hassle with the police because of their immigration status, but on the other hand they enjoy the lower price they can pay to this immigrants compared to Thai guys. Yes, the economy has improved, so guys from Issan and other provinces can come to BKK and work in hotels and malls, but offer them 5-6 times that they are making in those places, and a good number will parade for you however you like.
I mean , lots of them are already prostituting themselves online for some extra money. Also, personally witnessing each time I'm in Thailand, the amount of bb sex happening with the under-25 crowd (and I'm talking about free sex) I don't feel there is an STD panic going on right now within the young people in there, much less so worrying about HIV.

What I think happened is: there is definitely a contraction in the demand for go-go bars. As the first post of this thread said, go-go bars are not as popular as they used to.

So, owners can't really increase their price, or risk alienating even more customers, especially given the high availability of guys online. The large numbers of Burmese, Laos and Cambodians  has really served as safety valve for them. Afterall, most customers in those bars can't even tell the difference if the guy is Thai or not.

So, I still think it has mostly to do with economic reasons and not really because of any big cultural or sociological changes in the mores of Thai society. However other long-time residents of Thailand can chip in with their thoughts.

8 hours ago, PeterRS said:

So far, they have survived, although now very few Thai boys work in them - very unlike the 1980s and 90s.

Isn't that the same reason you see mostly foreigners working in certain industries like fast food, constructions, etc even in Western countries?! Owners prefer foreign workers with sometimes dubious work permits, so that they can pay them less, offer no benefits and have bigger control. If thy government cracks down on immigrants then those owners will have to offer more to attract the local boys if they want to stay in business. so I think that's because of economical reasons, instead of cultural ones. I'm sure there are plenty of local boys working as freelancers online.

7 hours ago, PeterRS said:

We saw the first major attempts to clamp down on the sex trade in the early 2000s with Thaksin's social order campaigns. SInce then the apps have been doing a good job at weaning some sex tourists away from the bars.

Yeah, they tried but even then they weren't able to shut it down. Why? Because there was too much money to be made by that very same elite. so, I don't government intervention as the main factor in the change of BKK's gay scene. It's not like Thai society has become more conservative, actually the opposite is true, especially among young people. Plus, that kind of crackdown would have a much higher global resonance today that they had more than 20 years ago. It would definitely scare lots of people.

I still think that  actually "market" forces will  drive the change. Even among the gay  tourist crowd, westerners represent a much smaller percentage compared to 30-40 years ago. It's the Asian, primarily the Chinese, that make up the majority. so, it's only logical that a lot of venues will cater to their taste and way of doing things.

On 11/27/2023 at 8:39 PM, davet said:

I also posted this to the Asia forum, but what's the story with big blond hunky E. European guys posting ads in Asia? I've been watching one big Ukrainian guy who has been stuck in Bangkok for a year. I know of another Czech who moved to S.E. Asia. And when I was last in Bangkok, I saw several very porn-looking Euro boys (one of whom I could swear was Carlo Festa, but he would have been too old) walking through the night market. The Lady-Boys made a hilarious show bowing and kowtowing before these nordic gods.

I don't think these guys are on the usual global circuit. Some seem to have been based in Asia for an extended term. I suppose the cost of living is cheaper for these guys and the client base is presumably appreciative of their "exotic" attributes (turnabout for fair play).

Is there a special door into this scene, other than the usual pimp sites?

Well even before the war started, the phenomena of young Russians/Belarusians/ Ukrainians moving into southeast Asia was quite diffuse. The three main destinations were and I think still are Thailand (especially Pattaya), Vietnam (especially Nha Trang) and Indonesia( mostly Bali)Some of them actually moved over there legally and acquire job permits (the easiest is in Vietnam where lots of them end up being, believe it or not, English teachers). Some, just overstay their tourist period. I guess the police doesn't bother them as much as immigrants from the other SE Asian countries. It's true that lots of them, both females and males, end up engaging in prostitution and actually some of them resort to plain begging on the streets.

I think actually the war and the pandemic pushed the more educated and professional kind of people to move to SE Asia. The main factor as you said are weather and the low cost of living. I was in KL last month and was surprised to hear so many people speaking Russian around the city. Even the Airbnb tower I stayed at, was full of them.

Now if you're looking to find some of them engaging in transactional sex while visiting Asia, I would say Hornet is the place to start, as that is actually the most used app in Russian speaking countries, so even when they move, they still use that. Another alternative, if you really want to find them, is asking a local mb if they know any of them. they usually do, especially in those cities I mentioned above.

On 11/11/2023 at 10:30 PM, PeterRS said:

Worst in both are its hotel recomendations. The top two in Bangkok are the W Hotel and the Mandarin-Oriental! Soon after come the So-Sofitel, the Banyan Tree, Le Meridien, the Peninsula and the St. Regis. To be fair, it also lists the Tarntawan. But why such a cluster of just expensive hotels? I

In Taipei it places the Chinese-styled Grand Hotel at the top of its list. Why, considering it is so far from the gay areas and not close to public transport? Beats me. Advertising cash, I expect! 

Trying to bring this discussion back on-topic, instead of arguing back and forth if Taipei is a worthy destination (which can be done in its own thread) I think travel gay sites, in their hotel section, should mention clearly (though unfortunately almost none does) what's the general guest policy for hotels in a given city/country and mention if there is any hotel that goes against it.

A paragraph should also mention if the same applies to Airbnbs and if there is any trade-off with going with the latter like ex: security (though this might be more relevant in South American than Asia).

Instead, they just come with a list of places, slammed with overused "gay-friendly" label, which at best sounds limited and at worst just plain paid advertisement. If you really want to mention names at least provide some actual and concrete info relevant to gays, ex: Gryand Hyatt Bangkok is a popular place for homepas during the White party nights.

Info about the high and low season in a particular place will also be very useful, but unfortunately in none of the gay travel sites I consult before visiting a new place, you can find this type of information. So, usually the hotel section is the one even I completely skip or just give it a very quick glance.

On the positive side, I guess that's what makes sites like this portal useful and have people come to it often.

On 11/22/2023 at 9:35 AM, eurasian said:

Hi everybody ,

Most of the reports here are about the gogo bars and massage places but very little info about saunas . Will be happy to hear your feedback particularly for Krubb and Chakran saunas .

Thanks .  

Only been to Krubb once. Their facilities are great and the crowd is pretty hot. A bit of a sticky-rice vibe but you can still have lots of fun. It was during once of their group action nights. Felt the event was a bit disorganized and the room where it was held was too small and dark. They had some performers in there, same as R3 does. It was in August of 2022 though, so 90-95% had a mask on, which was really a turn-off.

Never been to Chakrain , even though I tell myself I will go each time i'm in BKK. Maybe it's because of its reputation being too sticky-rice or the location or maybe I just go to the others once I know I will have fun. Didn't know they had special events. Would definitely go, especially on a foam party. 

Talking about foam parties I definitely recommend the ones at Mania but especially at the ones at R3 sauna. went there last month with a Thai twink who wanted to some group action in the dark room and who usually goes to Krubb and we both had a blast. The performers were hot and the crowd was quite big and wild.  R3 is bigger than mania so the foam tends to be also better. Met even this guy who used to be a performer over there before Covid. Asked him if he was still working there but he said he said no and  was there just to see his friends and have fun. At the end of the party, he came over me and asked if I had cummed. I had but said. Asked me and then said he can take care of it. we went to a cabin and had a pretty good ride. So I definitely recommend R3. check their Twitter account to see when the next party is.

Going to be in BKK for most of December, so hoping to finally go to Chakran, give Krubb and enjoy the foam parties in Mania and R3. It's gonna be good especially on NYE/White party weekend. Last year they had foam parties on both saunas everyday from Friday-Sunday.

14 hours ago, scott456 said:

@hojacat confirmed many things about Taipei night life, both good and bad.  And, he did point out he is a rice queen.

BTW, so far, nobody has disputed the fact that the majority of gays in Taiwan are bottom.  

I wasn't really trying to give my judgment on anything specific about Taipei nightlife but just that it fits perfectly my taste and desires. Evidently it doesn't for you and that's totally fine. I'm in the same boat with some of the places mentioned by you like Bogota and Medellin. Been there, done that. Can't really say I enjoyed them, even though I can speak Spanish and had a good amount of sex while there, so no plans to return to those places.

You gave Taiwan a fair number of chances. I don't think you will get charmed if you go for a 3rd time. Would be better if you just avoid it as it doesn't really suits you for all those reasons you mentioned and I think you're honest when you're saying that they bothered or made the place unappealing to you, even though I don't agree or share them.

Nonetheless, Taipei is going to be remain a great gay destination for most, including lots of people in this forum. Same as will Columbia or Brazil, even though I wouldn't return there even if getting paid to do so.

22 hours ago, khaolakguy said:

Sharing this link as it was updated last month and seems to provide interesting information, though our learned members may be able to advise on it's accuracy.

 

https://www.klook.com/en-GB/blog/taipei_gay_bar/

It's a pretty comprehensive and well-summarized list of venues. Quite good for a generic website focused mostly on selling tours. if it had included the saunas the hot springs would have been pretty much complete.

8 hours ago, Marc in Calif said:

Thanks for confirming the fact that Taipei has a vibrant gay nightlife for you! 🥳 🎉

That's for sure. Otherwise, I wouldn't have gone there more than 15 times.

On 11/13/2023 at 3:54 AM, PeterRS said:

You have definitely got me confused with another poster. Unlike some of my friends, I am not a regular club goer in Taipei and certainly would never have mentioned Candy. I don't even know what it is! I have mentioned the small Commander D which I have been to and is quite close to The Red House. G*Star is much bigger and probably the most famous. I hear that Abrazo, Bacio, Werk and Bush at B1 are among others worth considering. @hojacat wrote a post about Hunt being virtually a club but it seems to have a different dress theme each night. You can find the post earler in this forum.

Best is to chat with some of the guys who go to the various Red House cafes for drinks or dinner. With the rainy season almost over, it will be packed at week-end nights and pretty busy the rest of the week. I go regularly for drinks to Sol Bar and the waiters there speak good English. They will know the latest 'in' places.

Since it seems you don't like Taipei/Taiwan why bother going? Others really like it. Some love it.

Maybe he was referring to a post about Candy Land ( a dance party held monthly in Taipei) that I did posted in another thread. It's a short Youtube video I found of it. Now about the debate regarding gay venues in Taipei: when it comes to bars, dance clubs, drag shows, circuit parties, I have zero or almost zero interest in them, no matter the size or quality so will let others argue about them. Yeah, I have been to most of the bars and clubs in Taipei(Abrazo, G*star, etc) but that's because I have been so many times and can't say no to my local friends when they want to bring me with them.

The only two types of gay venues I really care about in Taipei and every other city I visit are: saunas and cruise/sex clubs. Now, I guess there is general consensus that Soi13 can compete against  the best saunas of any Asian city like BKK (R3, Krubb), HK (Hutong), Tokyo (24 Kaikan), etc in terms of size, venues, quality of guys, action happening, etc.

Also while it is true that cruising clubs like Commander or the Hunt are much smaller and less hardcore than the same kind of venues in other places like The Lab in Berlin, SBN in London, GBU parties in NYC and LA, given that in those places I'm only into 10-15% of the crowd while in Taipei that number goes to 80-85% (yes, a shameless and unrepented rice queen in here) I still find patronizing those venues in Taipei a damn good way of spending my time.

At the end, I guess, different strokes for different folks. Taipei has a good and solid base of admirers which is only getting bigger (witnessed first-hand during pride the enthusiastic reactions to the city of people visiting for the first time).

On a note, is there a proper sex/cruising bar in BKK (not counting go-go bars)?

On 11/11/2023 at 6:46 PM, PeterRS said:

They have to a large extent operated under the gaydar. Yet Asia's first-ever Gay Games - known as the Gay Olympics, the week-long annual event marking inclusion and diversity - will end today with a large closing ceremony. 2,400 athletes along with their friends, families and members of Hong Kong's own LGBTQ community will join hands in celebration of a highly successful week to dance to disco music with 'gay' abandon. 

It was all very different in 2017 when Hong Kong was awarded the Games to join the hosts of previous Games like Paris, Amsterdam and Sydney. There was joy among the gay communities throughout Asia, a joy that in part celebrated Hong Kong's continuing freedoms after its return to mainland China. Then came the massive 2019 protests, the all-encompassing new National Security Law imposed by China making "love China" the flavour not only of the month but all future months and, perhaps even worse for the Gay Games, the closure of Hong Kong with eventually the world's most draconian quarantine regulations as Covid took its toll. As this was going on, a crackdown on LGBTQ activities was underway in China itself. Many felt Hong Kong could never host the Games.

Originally planned for 2022, the Games were pushed back a year. But the worry over China's contol of Hong Kong continued. As a contingency, the Games organisers appointed Guadalajara as a co-host. This inevitably resulted in many participants going to Mexico rather than risk going to Kong Kong. Consequently, the numbers taking part in Hong Kong were diminished. But according to reports, all who went had a ball. 

Few lawmakers in Hong Kong seemed to have a ball, though! Speaking at the opening ceremony last Saturday, just one lawmaker Regina Ip priased the event she claimed "overflowed with passion and a great sense of unity and community."

Odd, though, that even though this event brought thousands of participants, the Games were totlly absent from the city's Tourism body's website. Not even one sentence!  

Even Ms. Ip was called a hypocrite. One of her remarks praised the Hong Kong courts for "numerous judgements" handed down in favour of the LGBTQ community. Activists and lawyers quickly pointed out that Ip's government had opposed each of those judgements, losing in almost every single case.

“Why are they still wasting taxpayers’ money fighting these tooth-and-nail litigations when they’re recycling the same arguments and losing?” said Mark Daly, a human rights lawyer who has worked on a number of the cases.

But the week of the Games was a joyous occasion for many and proof that not everything in Hong Kong is yet joined at the hip to the mainland.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-67366059

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/11/gay-games-hong-kong-china-hostility-gay-transgender

Wondered how much the attendance was in concrete numbers and if it can rivaled with Taipei pride.

Among the people I met during Taipei pride only one was planning to go there. Nonetheless, a first for Asia.

On 11/12/2023 at 2:43 AM, Pantherz said:

Planning a trip to Taipei and wondering if it’s worth spending a couple of days first in Kaohsiung? Is it easy to meet young, good looking guys at bars on Thursday and Friday evenings? Or would it be better to just spend more time in Taipei? Thanks!

Personally, spent around 6 days in Kaohsiung this January. Loved the city and its people. even in Taiwan, people from that area have the reputation being overly friendly. 

Stayed at Indigo hotel near Central Park. Modern hotel that offers great vies and a very convenient location. Didn't have a problem meeting 1-2 guys every day and not just for sex. a couple of them took me around the city on their motorbike and at their favorites cafe and dining places. You can check my reviews about Hi-Man sauna in a previous post. It's kinda small but has theme nights. Friday was so-so but Saturday was actually quite decent. A good number of twinks. I still keep in touch with a guy I met in there and he even came to meet me in Taipei last month. Didn't explore much bars or gay clubs as I'm not usually into them.

Should you go or not? Depends on you. Not sure about your age and body type but if you're popular in Taipei, rest assured you will be in Kaohsiung also. If it's your first time in Taiwan, i would just spend more time exploring Taipei and enjoying the pleasures that the gay venues and apps can bring you in that city. However, Kaohsiung is definitely a valid destination that I recommend to all the Taiwan-lovers in this forum.

Quite a few airlines have implemented facial recognition solutions, when you can go from checking your bags to boarding the plane without having to take a boarding pass out. Emirates and Delta are two that come to my mind right now. At The international terminal at LAX, where I usually fly from, most of the times you board the plane just by having a picture taken.

On 11/4/2023 at 9:40 PM, PeterRS said:

It's also been in use in Taipei when exiting the country since pre covid. For some reason, at Taoyuan airport the whole process works much faster.

Yeah, leaving TPE is usually a quick process. They take a picture of your face and scan two fingerprints at an automated gate. Entering through TPE though is such a pain. The immigration process is extremely slow. I've had to wait between 30-75 minutes during day hours. They should automatize that process, especially for countries that don't require a visa or at least increase the number of immigration agents. Such a shame for an advanced country like Taiwan. Makes BKK looks quite well-run in comparison.

There is a known belief among the students of the University of Bologna ( the oldest continuing one in the world). Never climb la torre degli Asinelli (the taller one) before an exam, as you will never be able to graduate. For the older crowd though, it's probably not recommended to climb as you might never be making it down. Even being from that region, I only been on top of the tower once, in high school and found it exhausting.

I still can't believe they didn't break the record of 2019. Both me and my Taiwanese friends agreed that they have never seen so many tourists going to the pride:

https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/10/29/taiwan-pride-march-east-asia/