Spain shame

[Olddaddy]

Oh the horrific scenes of these poor refugees who have come to Spain🇪🇸 for a better life have really made me sad ,😭

They are shown begging in the streets for food , clothing and accommodation just the basics of and necessities of life 😥

I have just donated to Red Cross❌ Spain Go Dund online a substantial amount ,hoping it goes to feeding these poor refugees and provide accommodation 

We all should be ashamed of ourselves 😢with our relatively good lives whilst these poor people are mistreated , be ashamed of yourself!

[PeterRS2]

What are you talking about? That anyone unhappy with their lot has the right to illegally skip over to another country so they can have a better life there? If that is as you seem to think a "right", then let's be honest half the world's population would immediately be on the move. And what of the thousands and thousands of people who have gone through official application channels to repatriate? Illegal immigrants slow down and sometimes stop their official entries.

Bear in mind that 57 Moroccans have already lost their lives in the attempt with more having been crushed to death in the panic. Bear in mind that many dozens died when trying to flee from African countries to get across the Engish channel to Britain in recent years. Bear in mind that over a thousand each year lose their lives trying to get from Libya to Italy - again in recent years. That is a horrible price to pay for their families and friends.

I have no idea of the total who managed to cross into Cueta compared to the number who died trying or were after arrival sent back. The irony here, I believe, is that Cueta is actually part of the African land mass that is geographically part of Morocco but belongs to Spain, a relic of European wars of the past. 

In their desperation, I wonder what these illegal immigrants thought they would find after crossing that border. In Spain these poor people, allegedly some 60,00 or so thousand of them so far, have no food, no housing, little clothing, no nothing! Hardly surprising that the 83,000 inhabitants of Cueta do not want them and 48,300 have already voluntarily returned to their home countries.

Mind you Spain has partly itself to blame after changing its law without considering all the consequences. But I congratulate you for contributing to the go fund me efforts for those who have now arrived in Spain.

[Olddaddy]

Yes we must show & tolerance 💜

[Patanawet]

5 hours ago, PeterRS2 said:

What are you talking about?

Well explained Peter. I hope the original poster can understand it.

[Keithambrose]

5 hours ago, PeterRS2 said:

What are you talking about? That anyone unhappy with their lot has the right to illegally skip over to another country so they can have a better life there? If that is as you seem to think a "right", then let's be honest half the world's population would immediately be on the move. And what of the thousands and thousands of people who have gone through official application channels to repatriate? Illegal immigrants slow down and sometimes stop their official entries.

Bear in mind that 57 Moroccans have already lost their lives in the attempt with more having been crushed to death in the panic. Bear in mind that many dozens died when trying to flee from African countries to get across the Engish channel to Britain in recent years. Bear in mind that over a thousand each year lose their lives trying to get from Libya to Italy - again in recent years. That is a horrible price to pay for their families and friends.

I have no idea of the total who managed to cross into Cueta compared to the number who died trying or were after arrival sent back. The irony here, I believe, is that Cueta is actually part of the African land mass that is geographically part of Morocco but belongs to Spain, a relic of European wars of the past. 

In their desperation, I wonder what these illegal immigrants thought they would find after crossing that border. In Spain these poor people, allegedly some 60,00 or so thousand of them so far, have no food, no housing, little clothing, no nothing! Hardly surprising that the 83,000 inhabitants of Cueta do not want them and 48,300 have already voluntarily returned to their home countries.

Mind you Spain has partly itself to blame after changing its law without considering all the consequences. But I congratulate you for contributing to the go fund me efforts for those who have now arrived in Spain.

'Ceuta'

[Olddaddy]

2 hours ago, Patanawet said:

Well explained Peter. I hope the original poster can understand it.

Show some empathy & love💜 to refugees at least once on your life , surely that's not too difficult 

 

[unicorn]

I will again submit a plea that anyone wishing to help do so via vetted, bona fide charities, and NOT via questionable websites such as GoFundMe, where you really have no way of knowing who's getting the money and how the money's spent. Organizations such as Charity Navigator receive details of charities' financial statements in order to make sure the money goes to help the intended recipients. One should aim for 4-star organizations with profile scores of over 90%.

AI Overview

 

 

The best charities to donate to for refugees depend on your goals, as different organizations excel in various areas of aid, from emergency relief to legal advocacy and local integration. The following highly-rated nonprofits provide effective support: [1, 2]

• United Nations Agency: The UNHCR is the principal UN agency mandated to aid and protect refugees, internally displaced people, and stateless communities worldwide. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

• Legal Aid & Advocacy: The International Refugee Assistance Project (IRAP) provides vital legal representation to displaced persons, ensuring their rights are protected and helping them navigate complex immigration policies. [1]

• Local Resettlement: For a direct impact in the Los Angeles area, consider local resettlement agencies like the International Institute of Los Angeles (IILA) or the International Rescue Committee (Los Angeles), both of which directly assist newly arrived refugees with housing, employment, and legal services. [1, 2]

• Global Emergency Relief & Resettlement: The International Rescue Committee (IRC) is highly rated for responding to the world's worst humanitarian crises and helping refugees survive, recover, and rebuild their lives. [1, 2]

Before donating, you can review the financial transparency and efficiency of any of these organizations on Charity Navigator. [1, 2, 3]

 

https://www.charitynavigator.org/ein/521662800

https://www.charitynavigator.org/ein/135660870

The IRC is one of my favorite charities, and is named in my living trust as a beneficiary. I agree that inviting lawlessness is not an effective way to combat world poverty, since it only adds another humanitarian crisis. There are plenty of 4-star organizations which aim for helping communities combat poverty. A good organization to help combat poverty in general is Direct Relief. 

https://www.charitynavigator.org/ein/951831116

"Direct Relief is a humanitarian organization, active in all 50 states and more than 80 countries, with a mission to improve the health and lives of people affected by poverty or emergencies. Nongovernmental, nonsectarian, and not-for-profit, Direct Relief assists people and communities without regard to politics, religion, ethnic identities, or ability to pay. Direct Relief's assistance programs - which focus on emergency preparedness and disaster response and the prevention and treatment of disease - are tailored to the particular circumstances and needs of the world's most at-risk populations. Direct Relief honors the generosity of its donors by following a firm policy of full transparency in all its operations. This tradition of transparent, direct, and targeted assistance, provided in a manner that respects and involves the people served, has been a hallmark of the organization since its founding in 1948 by refugee war immigrant William Zimdin."

[PeterRS2]

16 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

Show some empathy & love💜 to refugees at least once on your life , surely that's not too difficult 

You seem to assume that throughout my rather long life I have not made any contributions to refugees. Sorry @Olddaddy that is not true. I have made several contributions. Like many posters here, I have also contributed to other charities - as for example the Thai Red Cross for the massive 2004 tsunami, the 2011 Japanese earthquake and tsunami, the 2008 Sichuan earthquake when 69,000 lost their lives, and the disastrous earthquakes in Nepal in April and May 2015.

@unicorn is absolutely correct. When it comes to disasters of any kind, do not go to Go Fund Me pages where you have little idea idea where your contribution goes. Do research and stick to official charities. For years my chosen charity has been Medicins Sans Frontiers who work with people in many needy parts of the world.

[macaroni21]

16 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

Show some empathy & love💜 to refugees at least once on your life , surely that's not too difficult 

 

The choice of words can so confuse that a conversation goes heywire. These 60,000 people breaching the border in Ceuta are not refugees. Too often this word is used loosely in discourse. Refugees are people fleeing demonstrable threats to life and limb (e.g. from conflict or natural disasters) or persecution in their home countries. These young men (and they were mostly young men) were simply hoping to rush into the EU, in violation of border laws, for economic reasons. Several of them spoke to the media, and they themselves have openly said this was their motive. Any sympathy needs to be calibrated against this reality rather than be dialled up by the misuse of the word 'refugee'.

That they were fleeing nothing can be seen from the fact that over 48,000 of them so far have peacefully returned to Morocco, albeit under heavy security pressure.

The videos also show that many of them are not even Moroccan but Subsaharan. Reporters have pointed out that in the past, the Moroccan government has aided or encouraged border storming for political purposes whenever they were unhappy with Spain or the EU, e.g. in pursuit of their (Morocco's) imperialistic ambitions over Western Sahara or over their feud with Algeria. Whether this instance had any government involvement, nobody can yet say. This reminds me of Belarus using migrants to put pressure on Poland and the EU a few years back.

Members here of more leftwing persuasion should be careful of what they wish for. Misplaced sympathy for economic border-violators and the loose border control that results will lead to a local population developing a sense that their own security and social balance are under threat. No use arguing if this is empirically true, for feelings are powerful factors when it comes to voting. Once people get the feeling that their own government has lost control of their country's borders, there is a much greater likelihood of voting for rightwing parties, whose agenda on many other issues, e.g. LGBT rights, social safety net, may be contrary to leftwing ideals. I am sure I don't have to list examples of how often this has happened in recent history. In short, misplaced sympathy is a big, big own goal.

[PeterRS2]

1 hour ago, macaroni21 said:

The choice of words can so confuse that a conversation goes heywire. These 60,000 people breaching the border in Ceuta are not refugees. Too often this word is used loosely in discourse. Refugees are people fleeing demonstrable threats to life and limb (e.g. from conflict or natural disasters) or persecution in their home countries. These young men (and they were mostly young men) were simply hoping to rush into the EU, in violation of border laws, for economic reasons.

@macaroni21's post is too true. @Olddaddy's suggestion that the people fleeing from Morocco are refugees is inaccurate. The United Nations clearly defines what the word 'refugee' means' -

Refugees are people forced to flee their own country and seek safety in another country. They are unable to return to their own country because of feared persecution as a result of who they are, what they believe in or say, or because of armed conflict, violence or serious public disorder. 

Economic migrants are not refugees.

[Olddaddy]

3 hours ago, PeterRS2 said:

You seem to assume that throughout my rather long life I have not made any contributions to refugees. Sorry @Olddaddy that is not true. I have made several contributions. Like many posters here, I have also contributed to other charities - 

I'm trying to work out why you think every post is about you?😊

Reminds me of a co-worker I used to work with who took everything I said personally, I remember telling him someone had pissed all over the toilet seat in the staff toilets🚽🚽 ...of course he thought I meant him and stormed off to the bosses office in a puff ..."😤😤

"Boss. Boss ....Old Daddy said I pissed all over the toilet seat ...and I didn't boss !

"I always sit down when I'm pissing Boss "" 

 

[unicorn]

3 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

...These 60,000 people breaching the border in Ceuta are not refugees...

Well, what would be fair to say is that most are probably not refugees. Some are. One might guess that some, for instance, might be escaping persecution due to being gay. The brown/orange/yellow countries on this map have laws forbidding LGBTQ activity, or even expression:

There are even areas south of the Sahara in which the death penalty can apply (dark brown). Some 25 years ago, I helped my boyfriend get asylum from the Russian Federation (he came in on a student work visa, but had experienced harassment in Russia, even having chemicals thrown in his face). [Dark blue have same-sex marriage, light blue have domestic partnerships, gray have neither protections nor prosecutions for the LGBTQ community]. 

The influx started immediately after the Spanish Supreme Court ruled that anyone coming in by sea had to be (eventually) be offered a hearing in order to determine whether or not they've suffered true persecution. I guess they should have left out their exclaves in Africa (Ceuta and Melilla). Anyone who can windsurf across the Straits of Gibraltar (or survive the 16 km swim with only mask/fins/snorkel) probably deserves a hearing. Just swimming around the fences of the enclaves probably shouldn't qualify. It's interesting that I haven't heard of many making the swim to Melilla. I've never been to Melilla, so I don't know the situation there. 

[unicorn]

Well, I asked AI for the answer to my last question:

Ceuta is the primary target for Moroccan migrants because its geography allows them to swim around the border fence via a short, accessible maritime route, whereas reaching Melilla requires scaling highly dangerous 19-foot razor-wire land fences. [1, 2, 3]

While migrants do attempt to breach both Spanish enclaves, the overwhelming discrepancy seen in recent migration surges comes down to distinct physical, structural, and geopolitical factors. [1, 2, 3, 4]

1. Geography and Method of Entry

• Swimming vs. Climbing: To enter Ceuta, migrants frequently swim just 3 miles (5 km) from the neighboring Moroccan town of Fnideq around the Tarajal and Benzú sea breakwaters. [1, 2]
• The Melilla Land Barrier: Melilla is heavily fortified by a triple-layer, 19-foot (6-meter) land fence topped with razor wire. Trying to cross this requires scaling the structure en masse, which historically leads to high-fatality stampedes and severe clashes with border police. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

2. Legal Exploitation and Social Media Rumors

• The Sea-Arrival Loophole: A recent Spanish Supreme Court ruling decreed that migrants intercepted at sea cannot be summarily returned without due process. [1, 2]
• The Viral Effect: Human trafficking networks and social media platforms widely amplified this ruling, heavily misinterpreting it to imply that anyone who swam into Spanish territory could remain. Because Ceuta is heavily associated with maritime entry (swimming), it became the viral focal point for the massive surge. [1, 2, 3]

3. Tactical Policing Discrepancies

• Moroccan Border Controls: Sudden surges in Ceuta often correlate with localized breakdowns or strategic relaxations in Moroccan border policing. Eyewitness accounts and analysts frequently note that Moroccan security forces occasionally look the other way or wave crowds through toward Ceuta's beaches during diplomatic friction between Madrid and Rabat. [1, 2, 3]
• Melilla Clashes: Conversely, the land borders around Melilla are heavily guarded on the Moroccan side in towns like Bni Nsar, where recent attempted crossings were met with immediate, aggressive police resistance, resulting in riots and arrests before migrants could even reach the fence

[macaroni21]

59 minutes ago, unicorn said:

One might guess that some, for instance, might be escaping persecution due to being gay.

Besides the question of how many among the 60,000 who swam across the fence were gay and whether that miniscule number, if any, would justify giving all 60,000 temporary asylum so that they can be processed over the next few years to find that miniscule number, there is another loose use of a word we need to be aware of.

Discrimination is not persecution.

If discrimination alone were enough to justify refugee status, then all 8 billion people on earth would qualify. Everyone is discriminated on one count or another -- too old, too young, too fat, too thin, too female, too male, too tall, too short, too colorblind, too bipolar... including through legally sanctioned barriers on account of religion, place of birth, previous criminal convictions and countless other dimensions. Laws against homosex are not uniquely terrible and do not rise to the level of persecution.

[Olddaddy]

Surprised to see India🇮🇳 as a Grey🩶 country , I always thought there  were a big  LGBTQ community 🏳️‍🌈

[PeterRS2]

2 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

I'm trying to work out why you think every post is about you?😊

DId you not write this in your first post?

On 8/1/2026 at 6:11 AM, Olddaddy said:

be ashamed of yourself!

 

[PeterRS2]

2 hours ago, unicorn said:

One might guess that some, for instance, might be escaping persecution due to being gay.

I am certain some might be, although like most people I cannot be sure. We should, however recognise that 33 out of 54 African countries have laws outlawing homosexual behaviour. 13 of these countries still have anti-homosexual behaviour on their statute books thanks to the British 19th century colonial law. Punishment in most cases is a term in prison (which in some countries is not enforced) ranging up to the death penalty (again rarely enforced), the latter in southern Somalia, Somaliland, Mauretania, Northern Nigeria and Uganda. 

In the West we have become used to freedoms we never had 65-75 years ago. We assume, but do we have a right to do so? that our present freedoms should also apply to the 33 African countries which have very different histories, societies and customs. Many western gay men managed 65-75 years ago, albeit with difficulty as, as in Africa today, it was in those years against the law in most US states and in the UK until exactly 69 years ago.

In England and Wales around 1,000 men were jailed annually for homosexual offences in the 1950s.  

[unicorn]

12 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

...Everyone is discriminated on one count or another -- too old, too young, too fat, too thin, too female, too male, too tall, too short, too colorblind, too bipolar... including through legally sanctioned barriers on account of religion, place of birth, previous criminal convictions and countless other dimensions. Laws against homosex are not uniquely terrible and do not rise to the level of persecution.

There's a massive, massive, massive difference between simply being discriminated against (which, as you said, happens to everyone), and being thrown in jail or even killed because of whom you love--private activity between consenting adults. As shown on the map, those in the orange and brown don't just face "discrimination," but serious prison time and even death. I can't believe anyone would fail to see such a huge difference. Let me tell you--prison in those orange/brown countries is a fate worse than death, for the most part. This doesn't even include countries in which the murder of gays will often if not usually never be investigated by legal authorities (such Jamaica, Russia, and Uganda). Only in the yellow countries are laws against the LGBT community not enforced with prison sentences (Guyana, South Sudan, Pakistan, and Myanmar). 

It shocks me to hear a gay person have no understanding of the life-threatening hardships faced by the LGBT community, many in Africa. These hardships are far greater than just being fired from a job for being LGBT (though that's bad enough). Another charity which I support is the Rainbow Railroad, which helps members of the LGBT community relocate to one of the blue countries (most commonly Canada, these days). 

https://www.charitynavigator.org/ein/474896980#beacon-report

[macaroni21]

4 hours ago, unicorn said:

There's a massive, massive, massive difference between simply being discriminated against (which, as you said, happens to everyone), and being thrown in jail or even killed because of whom you love--private activity between consenting adults.

We agree on this. 

But you are still conflating discrimination because of some statute or cultural disfavour with persecution. Persecution has to be demonstrated as real, imminent and personal, not theoretical, even if laws are not codifying it. If a gay person has received death threats, or been arrested before, or been bashed in an alley with the authorities taking no action, that person may make a case for asylum. Ditto a gay woman whose very conservative family (including the village community where she lives) is forcing her, on threat of death (honour killing) to marry a man in an arranged marriage.

However, the presence of discriminatory laws itself is insufficient. It does not rise to the level of persecution. Look no further than the active threads in other parts of this forum about sex trips to Jamaica, North Africa, Malaysia, and some countries of Subsaharan Afirca.

[Olddaddy]

Oh I literally cried this morning to think of all these young refugees having to go back to Morocco ,🇲🇦 absolutely shameful 

Why isn't the UK and Ireland taking these people in?

 

[PeterRS2]

7 hours ago, unicorn said:

This doesn't even include countries in which the murder of gays will often if not usually never be investigated by legal authorities (such Jamaica, Russia, and Uganda).

Abhorrent though the laws in these countries are, we have to recognise that there is virtually nothing any of us can do to change them. At least in Russia, after more than a century of claiming the coutry's best-known composer Tchaikovsky was not gay, Putin admitted on television a few years ago that he was indeed gay, but added that it was "his music that matters". He went on to say as quoted by Reuters,

"Russia's pride in composer Pyotr Tchaikovsky, even though he was gay, is proof that the country does not discriminate against homosexuals!"

He could have added that Tchaikovsky's brother Modest was also gay, that the great impresario Diaghilev was very openly gay, that Sergei Eisenstein was gay, that Nureyev was aggressively gay, that Nijinksy and Grand Duke Sergei Aleksandrovich were gay - and a vast number of others. But they do not fit his agenda.

Yet we definitely can start and continue movements for change in our own countries. As recently as the 1980s and 1990s there was a large number of gay men murdered by being thrown on to the rocks on the outskirts of Sydney. The number is assumed to be 88 and were originally classified as suicides. It was not until 2005 that some of these deaths were changed to homicides. Even though same sex relationships had been decriminalised in 1984, gangs of youths, many of school age, were on the lookout for young gay men with the intent to kill them. A subsequent Inquiry found that there was a "persistent culture" of homophoia and transphobia in the New South Wales Police force and many of the crimes were never properly investigated. A Judicial Inquiry estabished in 2021 claimed that the police had lost or destroyed records requested by the inquiry.

In June 2016 there was the Pulse gay nightclub shooting in Orlando which murdered 49 gay men.

In 2014 there were the Port murders in London. Stephen Port became one of Britain's deadliest serial killers. It is believed he murdered as many as 62 gay men whom he met on Grindr, drugged them to make it appear they had overdosed and dumped their bodies.

We still have a lot to do to bring sanity to our own countries.

https://www.advocate.com/crime/2017/5/08/18-historys-worst-mass-killings-lgbt-people#rebelltitem17

https://www.advocate.com/crime/2017/5/08/18-historys-worst-mass-killings-lgbt-people#rebelltitem7

[t0oL1]

On 7/31/2026 at 6:11 PM, Olddaddy said:

,😭I have just donated to Red Cross❌ Spain Go Dund online a substantial amount ,hoping it goes to feeding these poor refugees and provide accommodation 

 

Four dollars well spent...

[Olddaddy]

1 hour ago, t0oL1 said:

Four dollars well spent...

A lot better than your donation of a big fat  zero 

Not a sympathetic bone in your body , I cried yesterday watching these poor people begging for food 

Have a heart 💜 💜 

[unicorn]

4 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

...you are still conflating discrimination because of some statute or cultural disfavor with persecution... sex trips to Jamaica, North Africa, Malaysia, and some countries of Subsaharan Afirca.

While I agree that not all discrimination rises to the level of persecution, all persecution ultimately stems from discrimination. If a particular demographic group cannot, as a matter of practice, reasonably live in his country, he's being persecuted. While a visitor might be able to get away with indiscretions in homophobic countries (though risking serious punishment), that's quite a different story if one is a citizen of that country, can't hold down a job, and risks being arrested and thrown to prison or even killed. Likewise in Jamaica, where gay men have been known to be burned alive by locals, with authorities turning a blind eye. 

I think it's somewhat insane to go on sex trips to highly homophobic countries. Jamaica is the most homophobic country in the Western Hemisphere, though obviously there are a lot of countries in the Eastern Hemisphere which are worse--such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, and Uganda. Why risk imprisonment and death in Jamaica when you can go to nearby Dominican Republic? The fact that stupid tourists have lived to tell the tale doesn't make the situation for those who have to live there. 

[floridarob]

On 8/1/2026 at 2:42 AM, Keithambrose said:

'Ceuta'

He doesn't proofread as closely as he proclaims....😉