More Observations from My July–August Trip to BKK

[FFbtm1974]

Sex has a way of breaking through social barriers in class-stratified societies, and this is particularly true among us gay men. In Thailand, those barriers remain impenetrable. We foreign tourists, and some of you residents, may encounter privileged Thais in a cigar lounge and exchange pleasantries with them, but I suspect we mostly meet refugees and migrant workers from rural areas. In my experience, both are proud and honorable, if somewhat fatalistic. On a couple of occasions, I had encounters with the educated urban middle class (not MBs). I usually invite them all (refugees, migrant workers, and middle class) to dinner, choosing a restaurant according to what I believe they would enjoy and where they would feel at ease. The first two groups genuinely appreciate both a decent meal and being treated respectfully by a farang. The middle class, on the other hand, resented me, or at least this is my sense. They never say it, but I imagine them thinking: “How is it that a middle-class farang from America can afford to visit Thailand, while I cannot afford to visit his country? Why is he treating me to dinner at a nice restaurant in my own country, rather than the other way around?”

I'm considering to relocate to Bangkok, but I can't simply dismiss what I sensed during my visit: the Thai middle class resents us foreigners because our presence reminds them of their relative economic disadvantage. Are they likely to act upon such sentiments? I hope I'm totally wrong and overthinking!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mauRICE]

8 minutes ago, FFbtm1974 said:

I'm considering to relocate to Bangkok, but I can't simply dismiss what I sensed during my visit: the Thai middle class resents us foreigners because our presence reminds them of their relative economic disadvantage. Are they likely to act upon such sentiments? I hope I'm totally wrong and overthinking!

You're overthinking. Firstly, what do you consider to be middle class?  It is a somewhat broad and not very useful label without further qualification. I have plenty of Thai friends who would describe themselves as middle class and travel at least once a year, including to various parts of the northern hemisphere.

Secondly, why would they even care enough to resent you and what do you imagine they'd do to you that's borne out of this supposed resentment?

[FFbtm1974]

47 minutes ago, mauRICE said:

You're overthinking. Firstly, what do you consider to be middle class?  It is a somewhat broad and not very useful label without further qualification. I have plenty of Thai friends who would describe themselves as middle class and travel at least once a year, including to various parts of the northern hemisphere.

Secondly, why would they even care enough to resent you and what do you imagine they'd do to you that's borne out of this supposed resentment?

I hope you are right. In KL, Westerners seem to be blamed for increasing prices, and before long, you will have mob riots. But you obviously know better, since you live there.

[mauRICE]

51 minutes ago, FFbtm1974 said:

In KL, Westerners seem to be blamed for increasing prices,...

No, they aren't. Reactions to the current state of the economy are a lot more nuanced than that and, as far as I know, no westerner in KL has been harmed for "increasing prices". 

[12is12]

Since u didnt cite any overt sign of resentment, maybe it - like beauty - is only in the eye of the beholder.....

[floridarob]

4 hours ago, FFbtm1974 said:

Why is he treating me to dinner at a nice restaurant in my own country, rather than the other way around?”

I've had it the other way around in Thailand, Indonesia,China and even Taiwan...... They invited me out, selected the place and paid for me, I accepted it gracefully..... they all told me they had more money than me, who am I to argue with that, I'm very humble 😏

[hank75]

5 hours ago, FFbtm1974 said:

The middle class, on the other hand, resented me, or at least this is my sense. They never say it, but I imagine them thinking: “How is it that a middle-class farang from America can afford to visit Thailand, while I cannot afford to visit his country? Why is he treating me to dinner at a nice restaurant in my own country, rather than the other way around?”

You are so conscious of your own superiority that you are projecting this on others. 

Absolute nonsense. I go to Thailand for business as well as for pleasure, encounter a high proportion of educated Thais ranging from local middle class to privileged. They are so used to farangs in Thailand from all sorts of socio-economic backgrounds that they don’t bat an eyelid. 

[vinapu]

6 hours ago, mauRICE said:

 Firstly, what do you consider to be middle class? 

not wading into discussion here but I liked definition of middle class i spotted  a while ago  " part of humanity keeping deodorant producing businesses up and running "    

[FFbtm1974]

6 hours ago, hank75 said:

You are so conscious of your own superiority that you are projecting this on others. 

Absolute nonsense. I go to Thailand for business as well as for pleasure, encounter a high proportion of educated Thais ranging from local middle class to privileged. They are so used to farangs in Thailand from all sorts of socio-economic backgrounds that they don’t bat an eyelid. 

Not superiority, just the fact that a middle-class professional in the United States earns more than a middle-class professional in Thailand. And I am glad to hear that social envy does not exist in the Land of Smiles.

[hank75]

2 hours ago, FFbtm1974 said:

Not superiority, just the fact that a middle-class professional in the United States earns more than a middle-class professional in Thailand. And I am glad to hear that social envy does not exist in the Land of Smiles.

Actually the whole label of middle class (you or them) has nothing to do with your absurd claim. 

What you said was, locals with an education and a proper job (as opposed to moneyboys) were resentful of you supposedly having more money or means.

Please don’t try to justify this within a pseudo socio-economic framework; clearly the reality is different countries have different costs of living, so wage brackets differ accordingly. They are earning what is commensurate with the standard of living in Thailand. 

As for social envy, why would they be envious of you, a visiting farang who is a holiday millionaire and in your own words, “middle class” back home, when there are hi-so Thais within their own society if they really wanted to compare status and wealth? 

Maybe the economic resentment is all in your mind, and actually you have simply managed to piss off your educated sex partner in some way so it shows on his face since he is not being paid like a money boy to hide his feelings? Maybe you were obnoxious in offering the meal treat or making it seem like a bigger deal than it is? My advice to you, consider the complete situation and interaction before labelling this perceived resentment as financial jealousy. If you were as patronising to him as you are coming off here, I can understand why. 

By the way, Thais across all levels of society are masters of unspoken social diplomacy. There is no such thing as splitting bills unless you are a close group of friends or colleagues. Suggesting a meal is an implicit offer to pay, and if the other party agrees, they understand this and are mentally willing to gush with appreciation when the bill is picked up….usually demonstrated by a big smile and a brief wai. No one accepting a meal invitation will then glower at you as you pay unless for a different reason. 

 

[FFbtm1974]

59 minutes ago, hank75 said:

Actually the whole label of middle class (you or them) has nothing to do with your absurd claim. 

What you said was, locals with an education and a proper job (as opposed to moneyboys) were resentful of you supposedly having more money or means.

Please don’t try to justify this within a pseudo socio-economic framework; clearly the reality is different countries have different costs of living, so wage brackets differ accordingly. They are earning what is commensurate with the standard of living in Thailand. 

As for social envy, why would they be envious of you, a visiting farang who is a holiday millionaire and in your own words, “middle class” back home, when there are hi-so Thais within their own society if they really wanted to compare status and wealth? 

Maybe the economic resentment is all in your mind, and actually you have simply managed to piss off your educated sex partner in some way so it shows on his face since he is not being paid like a money boy to hide his feelings? Maybe you were obnoxious in offering the meal treat or making it seem like a bigger deal than it is? My advice to you, consider the complete situation and interaction before labelling this perceived resentment as financial jealousy. If you were as patronising to him as you are coming off here, I can understand why. 

By the way, Thais across all levels of society are masters of unspoken social diplomacy. There is no such thing as splitting bills unless you are a close group of friends or colleagues. Suggesting a meal is an implicit offer to pay, and if the other party agrees, they understand this and are mentally willing to gush with appreciation when the bill is picked up….usually demonstrated by a big smile and a brief wai. No one accepting a meal invitation will then glower at you as you pay unless for a different reason. 

 

I suspect the topic has been exhausted, but I am glad to learn that there is no social envy in Thailand, be it toward middle-class farangs like me, or the billionaire 1% in one of the world’s most unequal societies (we in the US are moving in the same direction). I had a sense that the unprivileged (refugees and migrant workers) are fatalistically resigned to their poverty - until they rebel, and are suppressed - but I was apparently wrong in my reading of the educated urban middle class. Your reassurance certainly makes the prospect of my early retirement in Thailand more appealing. Thank you. 

[hank75]

Yes, it does seem redundant to try and make a point to you, because you clearly only hear what you want to. Which I suspect was the reason behind the perceived resentment initially.

In any case, insights into your claims can be found by reading your initial trip report where you tried to convince a jobless Burmese non-MB to give you regular daily sex for a month, for a pitiful 500 baht. 

[floridarob]

1 hour ago, hank75 said:

Suggesting a meal is an implicit offer to pay, and if the other party agrees, they understand this and are mentally willing to gush with appreciation when the bill is picked up

@BjornAgain you paying attention.... next time you suggest we go for dinner, I'll remind you about this 😁

[Keithambrose]

9 minutes ago, floridarob said:

@BjornAgain you paying attention.... next time you suggest we go for dinner, I'll remind you about this 😁

@BjornAgain - looking forward to dinner next Saturday!!

[FFbtm1974]

56 minutes ago, hank75 said:

Yes, it does seem redundant to try and make a point to you, because you clearly only hear what you want to. Which I suspect was the reason behind the perceived resentment initially.

In any case, insights into your claims can be found by reading your initial trip report where you tried to convince a jobless Burmese non-MB to give you regular daily sex for a month, for a pitiful 500 baht. 

 

500 baht may be a pittance in your world, but I understand that in Bangkok it amounts to a full day’s wages,  just one hour of work, for a full month. I also wrote that I am sincerely glad the Burmese gentleman was doing well enough to decline the offer. n any event, this exchange has left me much happier than I was a few hours ago. As an old cynic planning an early retirement in Thailand, I want to be convinced that Thais are immune to such base sentiments as envy and that Thai society is immune to social unrest. Thank you.