DivineMadman

Agree. I think the common view of even long-time residents, journalists, etc., is that foreigners can never really truly understand Thai society fully.

Plus these guys are generally terrible at filling out forms. He might have found that intimidating as well. Not for this particular topic, but the Thai education system falls seriously short in some areas.

Some members will say yes always give taxi fare but I never do and have never even been asked.

+1 Another thought is you could bring a bar guy with you - sort of instant comfort factor and human shield. I think a lot of them would like to go but the parties are far too expensive for them.

Great topic. What are factors that determine your choices? I live in Bangkok roughly six months a year now. Each year my social universe seems to settle into a familiar pattern of 1-2± main guys. If the main guy works at a bar, I usually get to be friendly/more-than-acquaintances with his best friends at that bar. I probably am the one suggesting we all pick a convenient evening to go do something special like visit a club or Morlam, or if it's one of their birthdays I am happy to seize on the moment and co-host a birthday party. I don't particularly like sitting around drinking - in go-go bars or host bars. I loathe karaoke. But I enjoy clubs. These are guys that I've gotten to know and that I like to hang out with fully-clothed. How many guys? It's usually me, main guy and 3 of his best friends. If it's a birthday party it has ranged from 10-20+, but I wouldn't pay any bar fine for birthday parties. So I might pay the bar fine for 3 people, 4 people max. If another 3-4 people show up later after work, that's ok with me too. I just don't pay bar fine. Which bars do you take them to? I've gone to Morlam out in the suburbs (didn't pay any bar fines - we just scheduled on a day off); App Arena, Fake Club and another of the Thai night clubs name I've forgotten. Mostly, however I like to go to "Dancing Isaan" -- Tamnan Khon Isaan -- on Charoen Rat (https://goo.gl/maps/PSfzc97LBP22). It's the most fun in Bangkok and doesn't have any Hi-So pretensions, which can cause anxiety for some of the guys. (Unrelated, but for "date nights" I'll go to Stranger Bar, Maggie Choo's or Moon Bar with my date.) What drinks do you order and what do you chat about? We just order the bottle service of whatever normal vile whiskey and vodka everybody else is getting. We chat about what inebriated gays chat about around the world. Idle chit chat. The cute guys at the table over there. The weather. The dancers. Life back home. Is the drag queen good/bad. Is the singer good/bad. Maybe some customer stories. How bad the boss is. How good the food is. Different countries I've visited. I have a little Thai -- we make it work, but the music is so loud it's not about having deep conversations. They all have the phone apps that randomly determine who does shots, so we do that, or play rock paper scissor for shots. It's really just like going out to a club back home. I bring ear plugs. How long is the drinking session? 3-4 hours. How much do you tip the boys? I'll usually pay for drinks and food. (I encourage ordering food or snacks just because there is so much alcohol involved.) For bar guys I'll tip the amount that we agreed beforehand - 300 baht. That 300 was first suggested by my guy at the time. So from his and his friend's perspective, they get a night off and some decent pocket money. If they need the money from an off, then they stay at work and can come by later (but of course no bar fine payable by me.) Additional hangers-on - nothing. My current situation the main guy and his friends are not MBs, so I just force 100-200 for "taxi."

Kudos to jason1975 for a great report, for venturing to some of Bangkok's more boutique massage shops, and most of all for such a great attitude. Really an inspiration on how to enjoy the good and not get derailed if something is a little less than fantasized. And a special respect for being man enough to admit enjoying Unicorn Cafe. I'll confess I enjoy the spot, but could never say so in public. Bravo all around.

I do this a few times a year (so it's not a particularly Asian customer thing), usually with a guy who is a regular of mine (at that moment) and a handful of his friends. I enjoy these trips to Isaan dancing or a Morlam more than the BKK nightclubs. When I started doing this I just asked my bar guy/co-host what to do and his advice seemed fair to all concerned. Obviously pay the off fee, but also give each 300 for the night for cab fair and to be nice and make it a special evening for all concerned. He may have said 200-300, but 300 is a good number. And of course pay for booze and food, but outside of the nightclubs it seems hard to run up a big tab. I don't mind the occasional extra person going. I've never felt like I'm being taken advantage of. And last time the guys insisted on paying for half the food/bar bill. All-in it's still cheaper than buying a round of drinks for friends in NYC.

Wow. I am very happy it worked out for you. I'm a bit terrified to recommend places in case one of you guys has a bad experience.... I'm heading over to see my regular -- not Aek -- at Nine right now, especially happy it worked out well for you.

Apologies if this was already posted, but Bangkok peeps FYI, the movie "Call Me By Your Name," which has been getting rave reviews, opens in Bangkok at House RCA on the 14th of December. https://www.facebook.com/houseRCA/ (Their Facebook page seems to have a bit more information than their website.)

Thanks for the reports. Nicely done. Sorry you had a less than great experience at Nine Spa. But as Reader notes, two-out-of-three is pretty typical for new spots/new guys, at least in my experience. Well, I really, really respect the generosity of spirit in this statement, but it is also the million dollar question (or at least the 2,000 baht question). I think you did have a right to expect a little bit more from your masseur than he gave. But it's an intensely personal job he's doing and sometimes he may just be a dud, sometimes an absence of chemistry, maybe he's tired -- even so the excuses should only go so far as it is his job. I think that some guys for both intimacy and cultural reasons don't kiss, and personally I respect that. (Instead of kissing, in Laos and other areas people engage in a very erotic sniffing.) Whether at massage or a bar if kissing is important I think we have to confirm ahead of time. B2B massage I know some guys do it naturally and some guys don't - but if you ask for it you should get it. Touching him all over, you absolutely have a right to expect and he should have been open to that. (At least that's what I think.) But you were right not to get pissed off. There are too many things have to align for it always to be great. So try to remember the expert hand job...and take a pass on the shop or pick another guy next time. This is one area I believe it is important to continue your research as much as time and money permit.

I am sure others know more about this than I do, but I believe in many wats what we would call the sacred or holy spaces are not necessarily [just] inside buildings. I believe the ordination halls, for example, are themselves are in an area marked out by "sema stones."

La Table de Tee is a delightful Thai fusion tasting menu spot that's great for special occasions. http://www.latabledetee.com Le Du is really very very nice Thai food with a modern touch. http://www.ledubkk.com Might be tight to get reservations. Meets my requirements for a romantic dinner spot. ___________ Blue Elephant is considered very good Royal Thai cuisine. Seems a bit stuffy to me. http://www.blueelephant.com/bangkok/ There is a large rooftop restaurant over Central World (the mall). http://www.bangkok.com/magazine/zense-rooftop-bar.htm# It's nice with all sorts of food and not as pricey as some of the fancier sky bars, like the very highly recommended but rather expensive Red Sky over the Centara Grand.

Thanks PeterRS. I meant to include the link but forgot.

Sorry I can't help you with the sauna scene. Too many guys as it is . . . not enough time . . .

The film will be getting its Thailand premiere Wednesday 6 December (2017) at the Foreign Correspondents' Club in Bangkok. 450baht for non members and the film's producer will be there as well.

As you noted, lots of twinks at Fresh Boys. Also X-Size, Classic Boys and often Screw Boys. See the recent thread about finding good twink masseurs in Bangkok. I understand how one pushy guy can put you off a bar, but even if they pretend pout they really won't mind if you just calmly say not interested. They are just going through the motions. Even easier if you say "not interested but am interested in #XX". There are differing views about mamasans, but one thing mamasans can do is buffer you from the guys while you make your selection and can usually help assist confirming the guy does what you want. I almost always confirm with the mamasan before I call a guy over that he does what I want. (And then of course re-confirm with the guy.) So far never had a problem.

I usually leave it to Reader to post info like this, but FYI :- On Dec 23, the Bangkok gay community is taking over National Stadium for a sports day and pride parade. Bangkok Gay Festival 2017 is organized by Bangkokgay, who are claiming the event as "the world's first gay sports day" to take place in a real stadium. The day's highlights include a parade of muay Thai fighters led by Parinya "Nong Toom" Charoenphol, the first ever transgender muay Thai fighter, and a full molam band providing live music. On top of a packed roster of sporting events is the pride parade, which will take place inside the National Stadium at the end of the day. Tickets are on sale now at Ticketbox, with special promotions until the end of the month. All seating areas are B500 (originally B900 and B1,500). The profits from the festival will be donated to Wat Phrabat Nam Plu, the temple/foundation that treats people with AIDS. For more information about the event, contact 089-149-3175. In related news, what had been billed as Bangkok's first pride parade since 2006, which was set for November, was recently postponed. Bangkok Pride is now likely to take place in early 2018. http://bk.asia-city.com/nightlife/news/bangkok-host-worlds-first-gay-sports-day-december

I've been. It's a lot of fun and gets very crowded. It's not particularly cruise-y. People are generally friendly, upscale and having a good time. Definitely not a money boy scene.

I would think it means they're gay unless something makes me think otherwise.

I think this reluctance has nothing to do with nationality.

in this context it means both - emphasis on sensual massage

I recommend a couple of the boutique shops that are outside the Central Business District. I think they are more discreet and might also just be a nicer spot to relax and enjoy the experience., without worrying about shared showers or who you might see or who might see you. For these purposes tops on my list would be Leo Spa. http://www.leo-spa.com It's easy to get to by taxi (or even a walk or moccy from BTS Ari). It's a nice townhouse on a quiet side street where you are unliely to bump into anyone. You would pick your guy based on the picture and description and book ahead. All very professional and private. I recommend the guys who give "very good massages" ("นวดดีมาก") over the ones listed as giving just "good massages" ("นวดดี") Nine would be another similar type spot http://ninemenspa.com The townhouse is also easy to find on the map but of course there's no sign that makes obvious what goes on there. (Same is true of Leo.) These would be the places that I recommend because they easy to book (with pictures) and a bit out of the way and quite discreet. If you want to pick from a lineup then that puts you more into the brothel category Prince/VCK/Arena/Bonny/Bangkok. Those places of course you have to make the judgment on discretion/anxiety.

I think its good that you gave them the feedback.

I agree with vinapu and pong that the a 1,000 per hour or higher "minimum tip" should include full on sex (if that's what you want). Because I almost always go with 90 minute massages, I usually end up paying 1500. My usual tip at the legit (or mostly legit spots) like Prime is 300-500 - no happy ending expected or necessarily even wanted. (A man needs his rest.) That would be what I tip for a 90+/- minute thai massage or 2 hour combo of foot and thai massage. Where there's no stated minimum, 600-900 (or even 1,000) for HJ/BJ depending enthusiasm and skill. That would typically be for a 90 minute oil massage. We all have different views on this sort of thing, but because I spend a chunk of time in BKK I do consider tipping on the higher end for good service an investment in the excellent service i get on repeat visits. I am as subject to confirmation bias as anyone else, but it does seem to work for me.

thanks for the reports!