macaroni21

@Primeone385 It is very helpful that you have stated what your references and experiences have been. Doing so helps us understand your questions better. As you must have guessed, there is something very different about how bars operate in Thailand compared to the US or Brazil (I'm not sure how comparing bars to garoto saunas will help). A very specific kind of bar Firstly, I should clarify that there are many different kinds of bars in Thailand, and an outsider like yourself may not realise that this thread is only about one very specific type of bar which regular punters (sorry Americans, it's a British word) visiting Thailand tend to call "gogo bars", but which in my opinion is also not a very helpful term. It can mislead people to think that these bars are similar to what are also known as gogo bars in other countries. Language is full of these traps, where a term used in one country can refer to quite a different thing in another country. Ask a New Zealander what time he takes "tea", for example. Or compare what is an elk in Northern Europe versus an elk in North America. Essentially, what we're referring to here is a bar whose two main business objectives are to sell drinks (like all bars) but also to sell boys' services. I suspect you've guessed all that already by reading the forum. The boys don't appear on stage one at a time which would be more typical of American bars. Because the Thai gogo bars are in a business of selling off-site services (as opposed to only visual entertainment/stripper acts for patrons), the business imperative is to offer a wide enough range of boys for customers to choose from, the same way a restaurant has to offer a range of dishes for customers to choose. Therefore a typical, successful bar of this type has to have 20, 30 or 40 boys on hand -- very different from American bars where having ten strippers on duty is plenty. That being the case, it is inefficient in a Thai gogo bar to have just one boy on stage at a time. Some bars have 4, 5 or 6 at a time. Others have 10 to 15 boys on stage simultaneously. This practice of "mass offering" impacts the next point: The Big Cock Parade Secondly, Most of the evening, the boys are not nude. So the discussion in this thread is only about a short period of say 15 - 20 minutes when (a) they are nude and (b) they circulate among the audience. This is part of what the bar calls "showtime" which is the part of the evening when the lights dim and the boys standing on stage to be "sold" are replaced by a curated programme of performances -- of varying quality, mostly amateurish. The one part of the "show" that is not amateurish however is the part I call in my blog the Big Cock Parade. That's when a series of boys appear on stage with erect members (a state that is almost always maintained by tourniquets) and, well, parade around. They then come down to the audience and offer patrons a chance for a ten-second grope. The thing to remember is that the parade may consist of as many as 10 to 12 boys and, down among the audience, they tend to approach customers uninvited. Sure, you don't have to touch; you can wave them away for which there is no obligation to tip, but many customers do not like feeling pressured to accept the grope offer with its consequent obligation to tip. Tastes vary and some customers do not find the boys attractive at all so their thinking is: why should I be obliged to give money in such a scenario? Moreover, even if there was just one or two boys among the 10 to 12 whose cock one would gladly fondle (and tip), you may find that others will notice that you're the tipping sort. They'd notice that you didn't wave away Boy A or Boy B, and next thing you know, Boys C D E F G H and so on will be standing in line waiting for their turn with you. Yes it has happened to me, I'm not making it up. How does one tell Boy C "go away"? Even if you did, it won't deter Boy D. He would still be thrusting his dick at you thinking that OK, this old grunt might not like C, but maybe he likes me. Tastes vary One of the most striking observations one can make by following this forum is how tastes among members here vary. Some love the sight and feel of an erect penis. The Dominican Republic section is a case in point. I've joked before that over in that part of GayGuides, everything is about dick; nobody seems to care what kind of body a dick is attached to. I find it particularly amusing simply because I don't have the same fascination; I am more into massage and the full-body experience. So, for someone like me, to have a parade of 11 boys coming at me offering gropes and expecting payment – many of whom have neither physique nor personality I care for – gives me neither pleasure nor value. As you can see from earlier comments in this thread, there are others who feel the same way. Values vary Thank you for explaining that you're American (by that, I assume you mean USA) because one thing I have noticed as I travel around the around is that Americans tend to have a harder time than most understanding other cultures, countries and their operating systems. I think it was @jimmie50 who also noticed this (he himself is American) and he once made a comment, something to the effect that the rest of the world does things one way and Americans do things a different way. My advice to Americans when they leave their home country whether physically or when they explore other countries virtually as @Primeone385 is doing here, is to unlearn everything you've learned as an American. Be extra-careful that many of the things you subconsciously take for granted don't apply outside the US. Different values is one of those things people seldom realise because values are so invisible. Narrowing this to the question of monetary valuation, there are huge differences between how people from different countries put value on something. One observation that I often hear from my friends (from various countries) is that Americans tend to overpay for certain things without even realising it. Just to give a few top-of-mind examples: healthcare; public transport (if it even exists at all in your city). And sex. This is not to say that other countries don't have their own craziness; they do. Indians overpay for weddings. Japanese overpay for gift wrappings. Filipinos overdo the bring-gifts-back-after-you-travel-abroad thing. In Jamaica young men, even unemployed ones hanging around street corners, cannot afford to be caught dead in anything less than new $200 sports shoes -- when their climate is one where sandals will do just fine. And then there is the tipping culture in the US, which, as have been mentioned several times over many threads and many years in this forum, is widely seen as madness by the rest of the world. Americans have become inured to the expectation and practice of throwing money at people when no value is returned, and the rest of world sees this as some kind of psychopathy. ... which brings me to another implicit assumption that we need to be aware of. I have noticed that Americans participating in this forum, especially newer members, tend to assume they're talking to other Americans who likely share their same value system. As I have often pointed out, this is not the case. In fact, we cannot even assume that members here are predominantly White folks from western countries. There are Asians here, particularly in the Asia threads. Consequently, many conversations here are predicated by different value systems. What does a "price" mean? Coming back to the issue of tipping for the chance to manhandle erect dicks, the question was why such a big deal about a 100 baht tip? To reduce that to "only USD3.00" takes the discussion off onto a track that does not lead to understanding. It's not the dollars, it's the principle of being obliged to tip in an unasked-for situation. This objection is heightened when people come from cultures without a tipping culture; they don't tip at restaurants, they don't tip taxi-drivers, etc. It's just not normal to tip when no significant additional value is returned. Mix in the context of an unasked-for situation, it gets worse. Now, one may argue that the bar situation we're speaking about is one where value is returned. There is at least the overall entertainment value offered by the bar e.g. in putting up a show programme, and so one shouldn't begrudge the expectation of gratuities. But here again, we run up against value differences. In many countries, all-in pricing is normative. Having to pay extra is not. For example, in the US, my experience (correct me if the situation is now different and I am wrong) is that airline websites quote a price and then only at the point of payment do they add taxes, raising the final price. In many countries this would be illegal. The airline has to display the full price inclusive taxes right at the start. In such cultures, e.g. Thailand (but also most of Asia), customers go into gogo bars with a subliminal notion that the menu or verbally quoted price of the drink or whatever other add-ons would be inclusive of entertainment. The "justification" that extra gratuities are expected for the entertainment just seems very strange, in the same way that if extra gratuities are expected for a waiter to bring your ordered dish to your table, that would be weird too. It's the same with the sex businesses in Japan. They quote an all-inclusive price and no one is expected to tip extra. Over on the Japanese threads you still see Americans asking how much should I tip? They've been acculturated to feel intolerably guilty if they didn't throw money at the boy. It's been internalised so deeply.

The problem with a term like "Supersoft" when translated into English is that it connotes a level of service that is extra light when compared to what is meant by "soft". So, if "soft" is just a handjob, "supersoft" suggests something even less interactive than that. No wonder people find it hard to parse this term. The better way to describe the three categories would be Soft, Soft-plus and Hard.

Oh wait, I can copy and paste after all: Muscle Ranking Location Icon Shinjuku, Tokyo, Japan Muscle Ranking is a gay massage service in Shinjuku. Our private studio is a one-minute walk from Shinjuku-sanchome Station (Exit E1), right beside Ni-chome, Tokyo's gay district. No Japanese needed. Non-Japanese guests are welcome and the entire booking can be handled in English. English-speaking therapists can be requested. Our therapists are working GOGO boys and well-known muscular content creators. Both incall (our private studio) and outcall (your hotel) are available, and same-day bookings are accepted. Prices (tax included) Standard: 60 min ¥11,000 / 90 min ¥13,000 / 120 min ¥16,000 / 150 min ¥19,000 / 180 min ¥22,000 Four-hand (two therapists): 60 min ¥20,000 / 90 min ¥24,000 / 120 min ¥30,000 / 150 min ¥36,000 / 180 min ¥42,000 Overnight: 10 hours ¥33,000 / 12 hours ¥35,000 Private charter: 12 hours ¥55,000 / 24 hours ¥70,000 Additional fees Private room: ¥3,000 (standard courses), ¥5,000 (overnight), ¥10,000 (charter) Outcall: ¥2,000 (¥4,000 for four-hand), within 30 minutes of Shinjuku Station; further areas quoted separately Some therapists have an individual rank fee, shown on their profile page Same-day booking: no extra charge at present Payment: cash only (Japanese yen), paid before the session starts. We cannot accept credit cards, so please bring cash. Facilities Our private studio has a double bed, a massage bed, a play mat, a shower, a toilet and a hair dryer. Bath towels, body soap, shampoo and mouthwash are provided. We also operate a private gym with free weights and strength-training machines. Email: info@muscle-ranking.com (we reply in English) LINE: @spr9404c

Go here: https://www.travelgay.com/tokyo-gay-massage-spas and scroll down. I can't seem to copy the text from there to paste here. It seems that right clicking text is not allowed, I think. The rates are suspiciously cheap; I wonder what they include.

Haha, clearly a victm of brutal commercial logic. Suspended above the audience, you say? How would customers tip them? This is no way to make money, says the business consultant in stentorian tones. Far better to be down low, spread-eagled on customers' laps whether they like it or not. They can either tip for the pleasure or tip to make you go away.

To be frank, I wouldn't know what to do with spam either 🤔

15M used to have mattresses on the floor, but not anymore. They now have massage tables about one metre wide. Unfortunately, they still do not have face cradles or face wells (a common lack in the Saphan Kwai shops) so, to avoid suffocation, one has to turn one's head quite sharply to one side when prone. But that was a problem with mattresses on floor anyway.

I've only stayed there about 3 or 4 times, and have had two types of rooms. The smallest type have external windows, but they're really tight. The slightly bigger ones face inwards towards the central atrium, so one cannot draw open the curtains without letting others look in. In short, I agree with @vinapu I think there are better alternatives than this hotel.

@floridarob please convey my thanks to reader for all the new information, even if conveyed indirectly through you.

..... speaking of which, the plastic 20s and 100s are not an improvement. They tend to stick together.

I wasn't in the least suggesting that. I had written "imagining yourself to be that foreign advisor". My point rides on your keenly observed notes* about what you're seeing, and how culture and social practices are deeply ingrained in a society and inextricably intertwined with the realities of governance (or lack thereof) the physical environment. Too often, foreign experts are parachuted into a country to advise on economic development, business consultants parachuted in to increase corporate efficiency -- and also, journalists are parachuted in to "describe" a country to outsiders -- but they have no idea what they're up against. I have often been appalled at how impossible and inappropriate their advice has been. You, on the other hand, planned or unplanned, have planted yourself within a hide (note: British English) as it were, with an unparalleled view of real life. *keenly observed notes much appreciated and highly instructive. Others (like me) benefit from your observations without having to put up with squat toilets, spotty internet and mosquito nets 🥰Thanks for being such a hero.

That may help, but I suspect only to a certain extent. I say this because @NoNameFanBoy also reported that the photos were inaccurate - something that would be rather uncommon among other shops of this nature (based on my experience). Inaccurate photos are a management responsibility; it suggests that the problem goes beyond the boys themselves. One possibility - and I'm not saying this with any in-depth knowledge of culture or youth - is that the boys you chose were relatively young? It has occurred to me that the slightly more mature service providers (25 and above) are less likely to offer an uninterested service (all things being relative of course), and this is not just in Japan, but other places as well. Based on the occasional similar mention in this forum, I think others have noticed this too.

Thanks for the (ugly) details of those sessions. Indeed, I would be furious by the tenth minute. I think all of us who have been in the sex-buying scene for some time would know exactly how you feel because we would have had similar experiences, hopefully infrequently. Waste of money is one thing but as @floridarob says, anyone on a short visit would be particularly incensed by the waste of precious time. Whilst I agree with @a-447 that it is quite un-Japanese, at the same time, it was super useful to learn of this experience from you. It reminded me never to over-generalise any country's sex industry - meaning that if we ever imagined that all Japanese shops provide superior service because, well, they're Japanese, then we would be as foolish as thinking that all of country X's sex services are uniformly bad simply because it's country X. (I've seen comments here, for example, saying all Vietnamese are pushy and provide poor service, which simply can't be true in such an across-the-board way.) Some members here have said they still prefer the gogobars rather than order massages from online photos because one can see the boy (in the "flesh") while in the bar before committing. I think we can understand the logic behind this.

Your observations are very useful. It reminds me of a something I read about years ago in a book - I cant even recall the title, it's been so long - about economic development. What it said was something to the effect that many technocratic planners and advisors (usually from the West or the World Bank) fail to see that economic development isn't just a matter of building infrastructure or attracting investments with tax breaks etc. It often involves changing an entire country's culture, e.g. punctuality, sobriety, reporting for work (or opening your shop) when the holiday is over, and changing a society's value system such as saving for the future rather than spending for the pleasure of immediate consumption; valuing education and good health over status-spending, etc. Not to mention eliminating a culture of corruption ingrained among bureaucrats, which springs from a deeper culture of gift-giving, mutual obligations, social rank, and so on (I wish I could remember the more precise words the book used) You could spend your time imagining yourself to be that foreign advisor: how would you even begin to change the culture that you are witnessing?

Could you be more specific? How many boys have you had from this shop? And in what way(s) did they fall short of your expectations?

It was only earlier this year when I reminded myself to spend all the remaining banknotes I had with the old king's visage. It was beginning to look strange that I still had those notes.

Wow, even tips can now be paid electronically. The days of the anonymity of cash are passing. Soon Big Brother will be able to track which knock shop we visited, whom we fucked (or were fucked by) and when. And we're only one data breach away from privacy death.😳

I wouldn't genealise across all of Latin America. Pure European descent is actually quite rare now in Brazil. Although the Brailian population is said to contain about 60-70% European genes, in fact the number of people who are at 90-100% European genes (what we normally mean by European descent) is pretty low. My guess? Under five percent, though there are concentrations in the southernmost parts of the country. Don't take skin colour as any indicator. A light-skinned person could be 50% African ancestry + 20% Native American. He might have light skin, but look closely at the eyelids or the thicker lips and the extra-curly hair, and it tells you a lot more.

It's hardly exhaustive, but I can think of four broad reasons: Firstly, the topline numbers In 2025, Brazil received something over 9 million international visitors. Thailand received 33 million, nearly four times as many as Brazil. Assuming that the gay sex tourist is a similar fraction in each case, then Thailand receives about four times as many gay sex tourists as Brazil. It stands to reason then that there are more people interested in the Thailand Forum than the Brazil forum. Actually, you haven't seen the half of it. Other members here have reported that there exists very active fora in the Chinese language that discuss the gay sex scene in Thailand like what we do here. In other words, if you think the Thai Forum here is active and there are plenty of people following, double your estimate - this relates too to my next point below. I won't dwell on safety, but it makes a huge difference in a holiday between being able to go out and party late into the night, or having to stay in your hotel and only using Uber if you want to go anywhere. Secondly, more variety and more to discuss Having followed this forum for years, I've noticed differences in the substance of discussions among the various countries (but here, I'll speak only about Brazil and Thailand). For Brazil, the threads tend to be more directly focussed on sex, boys, dicks and maybe where to stay and difficulties with visa or mobile roaming. If one looks at the threads in the Thai forum, there are noticeably more discussions about venues (and I will come back to this in a moment), culture, relocation, and even relationships. More specifically about venues, there are just so many more in Thailand, with yet more we hardly ever discuss about in this forum. By contrast, over in the Brazil forum, these is the lament that in all of Sao Paulo, popuation (20 million?) there is just one main garoto sauna (Lagoa). No doubt, that is an extreme example, and not exactly true, but it serves to make a point. To a degree, this also reflects the way sex is organised in these countries. Quite literally, sex is organised in Thailand and less so in Brazil. Paid sex tends to be venue-channelled in Thailand, whereas in Brazil they are more freelancer-based. That creates the opportunity to discuss venues and how their channelling (their business model) operates, whereas there is only so much to say about 117 or 505 (did I get that name right?), Lagoa, garotocomlocal or mileroticos, when they don't control their boys. There are whole industries in Thailand - nonsex massage, ranging to full-on nonmassage "massage" - that hardly exist in Brazil. And as for the unique features of Brazil's venues, the interactivo clubs, well, read the recent thread about GASS in Bangkok! Thirdly, distance physical and linguistic Add to the above the difficulty of getting to Brazil. From its major source markets, it's a long haul flight, whether from North America or Europe. For Thailand, its major markets are short- to medium-haul flights away. (If you're wondering why I say this, then you're adopting a White-centric worldview). Thailand's major markets are its Asian neighbours. Asian customers in Thailand's sex venues outnumber white customers 10 to 1. It is this Asian volume that keeps the great variety of sex venues humming. Don't forget that several members participating in this forum are Asians too, conversant in English. Because of venue-channelling, language is less a hassle in Thailand than in Brazil. In Thailand, the customer communicates as much with the venue (often in English) than with the boy. In Brazil, because it is more freelancer-based, one has to communicate with the boy; the venue takes little part in the negotiations. I also have a feeling that many Asian customers have a smattering of Thai - to start with, they certainly can manage the tones better than non-Asian customers, so quicker to learn. Fourthly, the desired body At the risk of over generalising, the sex tourist to Thailand (and remember, they are 10:1 Asian) prefers a hairless body. This is rare in Brazil. Shaved bodies don't count, because they get scratchy. That said, I had one rare specimen when I was in Brazil a few years ago and another rare specimen in Colombia recently, and no, they had not waxed (I asked directly if they did). But they're uncommon, like one in twenty. Whereas the hairless Asian is the norm in Thailand. Over at the Latin American forum, what I gather from the threads I have seen is a greater emphasis on dick size. Furthermore, @floridarob has often spoken about a Latin gusto when it comes to sex. I'm not sure if I have ever noticed that difference in my few visits, but even if true, maybe "gusto" is not what the average (Asian) customer in Thailand prefers; maybe the average visitor prefers a more subtle, gradual-developing session in bed? As the same, much-valued member said in his inimitable way above, "It's Brasil, not Sunday Mass", there's an openness to sex in Brazil where discretion is more highly valued in Thailand and its neighbouring Asian markets. However, my point is a bigger one: there are real differences in what the average visitor to Thailand prefers (body type, activity tempo, discretion, etc) compared to what the visitor to Brazil prefers. It makes a direct comparison between the two destination countries a lot more complicated than at first sight.

@Travelingguy - did History ask you, at the time of your making a reservation, for full prepayment over some payment app? And if you pre-paid, how was the process?

I may be a good idea to follow the case now making the headlines in the US about a girl from Columbia University who drank with friends and then found herself in a "sexual situation". Prosecutors (and political leaders) are suggesting that others who exploited her situation commmitted an offence.

I find this thread strangely interesting, like hearing about how straight guys get aroused by this or that part of a female's anatomy, haha. In other words, nothing of the above resonates with me, yet it is somehow intellectually fascinating. I have never found any pleasure from being even tipsy, let along drunk - maybe it's just the control freak in me, wanting to retain full control of my senses at all times - and I'm no fan of alcohol. Yet, I am seeing here a desire to make oneself inebriated (at least partly) and to make the bar boys inebriated too; all the while counting the monetary costs. I guess Bangkok is safe enough for such adventures, but over the years, I've heard of two misadventures from friends of friends. In both instances they were straight. The story from the guy who went to the Philippines (can't remember if it was Manila or Subic) was particularly dreadful. Apparently, or so he believed - I have to allow for the fact that he didn't really remember events well - he was pickpocketed while sitting with several women in a bar, and then when it was time to pay the tab, he was assaulted for having no money. After several hours, some toughies accompanied him back to his hotel and they ransacked his room to find more money. Another story was from someone who went to Greece. Can't remember the details now but it too had something to do with being partially intoxicated amidst bargirls. Over at the Latin American forum, we come across reports from time to time about friends of friends being robbed after a night out, and some of these reports admit that they had been drinking. Sorry, if I sound like a wet blanket....

One member who comes to mind is @Min I like his reports, but he's dormant for long periods -- between trips, I suppose.

Typical solution applied by our favourite bars in Thailand, now being applied at the highest levels of national economic planning: when customer traffic is poor and sales revenue below target, raise prices!

Thats not unusual at all. Likewise not speaking of Malaysia but in China, I cannot access any Google apps or GayGuides if I use the hotel wifi, but if I use my phone roaming (purchased from outside China before I entered the country), I can.