macaroni21

Nagoya struck me as basically an industrial hub. Been there, see no need to revisit. It was not too long ago in China, when a guy brought me to a love hotel (we must have been the only same sex couple to use the place) whose rooms had mirrors all around. The whole place had an over-the-top decor, glitzy like Las Vegas, and large. The room too was large. It had mirrors all over, but I quickly realised that big rooms and mirrors don't go well together. To see yourself or your partner in action, I needed binoculars.

I hope what I said didn't come across as offensive, because offending was certainly not my intention. But if I sounded offensive, please accept my apologies. My point was simply that cities change constantly, and online maps support changes (and often they're free) better than print. Sure, they can issue new editions from time to time, but even so, one has buy them.

Not recommendation for OP who has his own taste, or for anyone else. Based on my taste, and for myself.

This is useful to know. Would the pindrop be in the correct location? Just to be sure. If so, it is 750m south of the station but on the other side of the railway track. There are 2 Google reviews of this place. Both speak of the male masseurs. Clearly, this place has a track record. The poor girls working there must be envious of the attention that their male colleagues are getting.

@PeterRS How does one use a map that is 15 years old? There's a serious risk of outdated information. If we used a 15-year old map of Bangkok or Pattaya, we'd be making a beeline for Soi Twilight and Sunnee plaza... I always prefer online maps. They are more likely to be up to date and since I am already carrying a phone, why carry another object - a book? But coming to the point, I have never had trouble finding places in Japan, though maybe I haven't been trying to get to out of the way places. Most establishments nowadays are able to send you a googlemap reference that is very accurate.

On a different thread someone posed the question: what are the different understandings of the word 'twink' among us. I very much want to add my thoughts to that question, but first, I have to gather my thoughts. As for Good Boy, I don't call the rotation boys in Good Boy twinks. If I have to find a word, I'd use the anodyne 'medium build'. But I see a huge difference between the medium-builds of Good, Fresh and Hotmale. There is what I call the "effortless medium" -- the kind of physique that the deity above makes quite naturally out of young men. Some people call it the 'boy next door' type. They are beautiful in my eyes. I see many in Fresh and Hotmale of this type. I see none in Good. Then there is the "scruffy medium" -- where what the deity has made has been modified by hard labour. They are taut, sinewy, maybe a bit weather-beaten. Some might think of the terms 'tradie type', or 'farmhand type'. They predominate in Good. Made worse by unkempt hair and gross tattoos, thus "scruffy", often bringing to mind street hawkers. The third type is the opposite of Scruffy. I call them the "washed mediums". Yeah I prefer my boys clean and washed. What the deity has made is modified again by a bit of gymming into slightly sculpted bodies -- but not all the way a la Moonlight models, which is likely aided with chemical enhancement. Often, washed mediums come with good skin and nice haircuts. I see some of them at Fresh, and many more of them at Hotmale.

I have a feeling that the English language is a particularly fearsome minefield of "banned" words and expressions. If I have to make a guess, it's probably because it's one of the few languages (Spanish, french and Arabic come to mind) that are spoken in multiple countries, and each country has a nasty history which has loaded some words with unpleasant, offensive historical associations. English speakers in one country may not be aware that in another English-speaking country, certain words convey unacceptable connotations. And then English probably has the largest number of english-as-second-language speakers in the world. We can hardly expect them to know the countless linguistic mines that prevail in this place, that place and so on. One example that immediately comes to mind: the word 'negro' is unacceptable in the USA because of (to the best of my knowledge) its association with slavery and discrimination post-emancipation. It's been replaced by African-American, though because that is such a mouthful, the members of that community often refer to themselves as Black. But try saying 'Blackie' in Australia and the politically correct crowd will crucify you. Meanwhile 'negro' continues in use in Spanish speaking America without much of the angst. As for Oriental, I agree with @mauRICE that it's best avoided because it is associated with colonial condescension, racist hierarchy, etc. I would use East Asian and Southeast Asian. I think someone asked whether there's a term that encompasses both groups. I don't actually see a need for such a term because in my eyes, they are visibly different. It's hard to tell apart the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese, ( and often Vietnamese, Lao and Northern Thai) until they speak or display cultural characteristics, but I have no trouble seeing this more northerly group as different-looking compared to Indonesians, Filipinos, Cambodians, Isaan, southern Thai, Burmese... i.e. the southeast Asians. Here again, I am not saying they are homogenous; the moment they speak or display some cultural mannerism, it quickly reveals their ethnicity.

@daydreamer and @Enchanted_Elixir have given good advice. Thanks for confirming that the main question is: How do I get paid sex in Thailand with the type of boy I like in my hotel room without any massage activity? Your best option is to book an outcall from a Type 4 massage parlour. Type 4 is what @Enchanted_Elixir refers to as H. This is the type of shop that is primarily in the sex business, with "massage" used as figleaf. In Bangkok, they would be the ones that send out lots of boy photos (sometimes with stats) and whose menu includes an outcall option. The Type 2 shops -- they're mainly about quality massage with body-to-body or hand relief thrown in to keep customers satisfied -- may also send out photos, so it can get confusing, but if they have a complicated menu with various kinds of massage, then you can see that their primary focus is really massage. The Type 4 knocking shops also tend to have the twinkier types you may like, but unlike Japan, you won't find many choices in the barely-legal category -- if that is your preference. The reason is simply because the Japanese market has a large customer segment that is interested in this type of boy, but not the Thai market. 15M and 27M have Willy, August and Tommy. Perhaps they're close enough to your range? Fafa may have more of your type, including twins Jack and Jew who are apparently available as a pair (not that I have tried). A difficulty may arise from a request for a deposit if you're booking an outcall. I've never been able to accede to this; I have no advice to give. If a shop does not publish stats alongside photos, you can message them to ask. However, in my experience, they're not 100% accurate. The apps might work, but as anywhere be alert to the possibility that the photos are dated or fake, and other inaccuracies (e.g. over compensation). The gogo bars would be your poorest option. If your type preference is narrow, you may not find the type you like in the bars. Still newish, you may continue to feel that you don't have enough control of the situation, money-wise.

@NoNameFanBoy re Good Boy bar, if it's any consolation, you're not the first to have your wallet exploited on your first visit (to any gogo bar, not just this one), and you won't be the last. By the way, we call these snake pits 'gogo bars' even though the boys don't do any gogo dancing, but the 'one-knee shuffle' as @Gaybutton describes it. @Kiwi306 is right. You're not obliged to buy anyone drinks. The trick is to keep an unfriendly expression on your face and only smile at a boy (never smile at mamasans) when you want to invite him to sit with you. If approached by waiters or mamasans about inviting boys over, just say, "I know what to do. If I want a boy, I will let you know." Bear in mind though, boys do not sit with you for free. If you do invite one to sit with you for 10-20 minutes, you're expected to buy him a drink, and then tip him 100 baht at the end of the 10-20 minutes. If the mamasan or waiter smells 'newbie', he or she will try to get you to buy him/her a drink too when he or she brings your desired boy to you. Don't ever do that. Say "it's ok. I will just buy a drink for him (your desired boy)." If you buy for the mamasan, he or she will stick with you, offer to translate, but in the course of the translation, also say to the boy in Thai (so you don't know what's said) how much the boy should quote - with an extra 500 - 1000 baht built in as commission for the mamasan. Wherever possible, do not use waiters or mamasans to invite a desired boy over. Smile directly at the boy you want and indicate with a wave of your hand that you want him to come to your seat. There are many members of this forum familiar with Good Boy, and they are usually happy enough visiting the bar; it's not as if all customers are eaten alive the way you were. Only newbies. Personally, I see little value in Good Boy but that is because their selection of numbertag boys are just not attractive to my eyes. Tastes differ.

And then there are (a) buskers/ beggars on the carriages, (b) mentally ill people shouting into the air... Haha. It's a unique experience. Once, I even heard gunshots, but thankfully it wasn't from inside the carriage but from the street below (the track ran overground at that point).

I can't quite check it out on my phone, but is it a physical map that, on purchase, is delivered to one's postal box, or does it have a digital version accessed on one's phone?

You're absolutely right. Senso is one of the few massage places in Bangkok that charge an all-inclusive price, so it's a good barometer for comparison. Senso charges 3,100 baht for 60 minutes and 3,500 for 90 (in-house room). That's equivalent to 15,000 yen and 17,000 yen respectively, very similar to market rates in Japan.

I don't think there was a typo. @topper's numbers are internally consistent. 3000 reais is 575 USD, while 3800 reais is 725 USD. I noted he hired via rentman. Edit: his reply crossed mine.

Normally when I see a post that opens this way, effectively saying "I don't want to do the work, so I ask you to do the work instead, giving me the answers" -- I won't bother to reply. You would also have noticed that other members are also relatively quiet. However, I see that you have contributed trip reports before (from Japan) and I will give you some credit. But I can't yet answer your question(s) because there are too many pieces of vague-ish information in your post. So, if you will clarify these, you may get more specific responses. But a word of advice: please do not bring Japan into the discussion -- it is such a different place with a totally different business culture, it can only confuse the conversation (and your own expectations). What do you mean by the term "regular club"? And what do you mean by "more than that"? In another paragraph, you used the word "bar". Do you mean the same thing? In your speech, are bars and clubs interchangeable terms for the same type of establishment? Was that person really a female or do you mean an MTF transgender? If you can remember, just name the place. We don't know if you're referring to one of the places that members of this forum are familiar with or whether you're at some other place we know little about. We can give you advice about how to protect yourself in place we're familiar with, but if it's a place that also foreign to us, then of course our words are meaningless. That other place may well have business practices that are "normal" for them. Best to be specific about the "club" we're referring to, otherwise we may be going around in circles in the discussion. If you managed to have fun in your previous visit to Thailand without ever getting a massage, why are your questions geared to "how to avoid a massage"? You seem to be asking: How do I get paid sex in Thailand with the type of boy I like -- and I think your preference is for very slim, as-young-looking-as-possible lads -- in my hotel room without any massage activity? Must this be in Bangkok, or are you prepared to spend more time in Pattaya? At 33, you're young enough to score at the saunas -- why do you want to pay?

Maybe the defibrillators didn't work when needed.

Not true 😂. Some are tight-fisted.

Officially opened. Announced on Youtube. To @vinapu's face-to-face question, re-confirmed it is open. But signboard still not changed. This reminds me of an experience from maybe 20 years back. I'm not saying that the story behind the White Cat (now more like Schrödinger's Cat) is like in my story... I am just reminded of that particular case, and maybe it's as good an opportunity as any to regale you with that story. I was at the time attached to the Bangkok head office of a Thai company, consulting on a project. One day I was implored (more like expected/obliged) to fly up to Khon Kaen for a ceremony. I never knew why it was so important that I should go since whatever it was had nothing to do with the project I was working on with them. Anyway, go I did. It was the opening ceremony of their new distribution centre. But when the busload of dignitaries (of which I was supposed to be one) arrived at the site, it became quite obvious that the warehouse was not quite ready. The building looked complete from the outside, but once inside, it was totally bare. No shelving, no furniture in the warehouse office, no phone or data connection, though at least there was electricity and lights. No stock either except for one lonely pallet of goods in the centre of the vast empty floor. I vaguely remember that the company had not even begun to hire staff for the Khon Kaen depot. Nor had delivery vehicles been purchased for this site. Monks came in soon after and a blessing ceremony was held. Apparently, the astrologer had fixed this day as the most auspicious day for the inauguration of the distribution centre. It might have been realistic if the building contractor had been on schedule, but clearly he was not. Anyway, the auspicious date had to be kept, and so the warehouse was officially opened. And to"prove" that it had become operational, a pallet was trucked in all the way from another distribution centre (I vaguely remember it was Ubon but I could be wrong) to sit majestically in the new warehouse. After the monks' ceremony, that pallet was loaded onto a lorry and delivered to a customer, apparently also somewhere in the Ubon area, so basically the pallet was driven 300km to sit in the warehouse overnight, and then driven back the same 300km to a customer in the Ubon area -- this was whispered to me cheekily by another "dignitary" on the bus who knew more than I did about the distribution centre. The long and short of it was that after that delivery was made "proving" that the distribution centre was open and operational, it must have fallen back into a phantom state for several months more before a second delivery was made from its doors. That day I had to put on my best behaviour and was extremely diplomatic about everything I saw (or rather, everything I should be seeing, shelves, goods, staff, trucks, customer orders... but did not). I was so well behaved (most uncharacteristic of me) that I must have treated myself to an ice-cream once back in Bangkok. I think some readers in the forum who have Thai boyfriends would understand the "logic" behind all this.

I'm sure I am not the only person scratching my head as to why they're not keeping the Atlas name. I don't know the answer, but surely, after a year in business, there must be some goodwill and name recognition attached to it. Maybe there's a trademark challenge from other similarly named entertainment businesses, or maybe it's just plain superstition after an unsuccessful year under that name.

By now we're in February and the high season, whatever that means, must be winding down. 12 to 21 customers in Moonlight has been roughly their steady state for several years now. I have seen rainy season numbers closer to 7 or 8 customers, though, which is depressing. Similarly, ten floor boys (what I call "numbertag boys") is also the typical size of crew. I still find it hard to imagine how that is a viable level of traffic for the bar. But @vinapu's mention of big spenders from China may offer a clue -- provided the bar takes a biggish percentage cut of the 1,000 baht (is that correct?) per garland. On that note, any idea of current off fee? Is it still 500 baht for numbertag boys and 1,000 baht for models? Any business that relies on a narrow base of occasional big spenders is a business on shaky legs. Big spenders can disappear overnight; there can't be many of them (thus definition of "big" spenders) so difficult to replace if a few stop coming. Always better to have a borader base of customers. Just think of Canada (and to a lesser extent China) relying too much on exports to USA. But a broader base of customers (for bars) requires a more moderate price level.

When I read this earlier post from you..... My impression was that 8 of the ten floorboys were new or not noticed before. You were not in that sentence referring to the models, of which, coincidentally, there were eight. They can't be all new; turnover of models is not fast.

You're being so kind 😅 But seriously, for an official video announcing the reopening, it's quite pathetic. It's official because it was posted on their Facebook. https://www.facebook.com/people/White-Cat-BAR/61570325579094/ If one didn't know a bit of its previous incarnation, one would not have a clue what this White Cat is about. Four middle-aged men fully dressed standing still on a stage? Nothing in the background to suggest any other reason to go? At one level, it suggests very poor marketing and management skills if they even thought that the video was good enough for release, which in turn may indicate that they do not have the capacity to reinvent the business. I cannot help but wonder if they're stuck in a nostalgic rut for a business model that was a success 10 to 15 years ago and has struggled for a decade since. However, at this point, I am only commenting on the video, not the bar itself which we should reserve judgement on till there have been at least 3 or 4 reports. I also wonder if the readers on this board are also stuck in a nostalgic rut. Frankly, I don't think a muscle bar with gogo, nude shows and rent boys is viable any longer in Bangkok. Firstly staffing: In the present economy where is one to find new beefy blood willing to do public sex? From reports here and my visit last year, even ThanTawan has been unable to refresh their stable with younger guys. Secondly, market size: Even on this board, I think the number of members enamoured with body builder types can be counted on the fingers of two hands, and who on average visit just once or twice a year. How is any bar to survive with such a tiny market? Recent reports about pushy mamasans at Thantawan -- and @Shax's report about Thantawan upping its off fee to 800 baht on weekends -- may suggest financial desperation.

You're surely more familiar than I am, but what I've heard from my Singapore and Malaysian friends is that the gay bars and clubs in Taipei are very happening places, though these reports might be skewed because they tend to go there during Taipei Pride. But if they are correct, then it would be hard to imagine that the Taiwanese would only be interested in massage places when visiting Bangkok. Why would a Taiwanese make a video for a Singaporean audience? If you're suggesting that the video was made by a Singaporean, then there are 2 clues against it. The gay Singaporeans of bar-and-clubbing age with the skills to make a video and the wherewithal to travel (actually, most Singaporeans have that wherewithal) would speak English as their first language. Many can speak Chinese, but if they're going to make a video, they're not going to do it in their second language. Also, Singapore uses simplified Chinese, not traditional script (not so sure about Malaysia).

Haha 🤣 Maybe he's still on the bus, and without phone signal, can't tell us.

Just found a very recent video to illustrate what we may be talking about: I can see how impactful a video like this can have in directing newbie tourists to specific places, or in channelling those who want to go where the crowd goes. I think it goes a long way to explaining the long queues at some of these places' doors, and the surge during the annual White Party. The subtitles are in traditional Chinese, so this is probably a Taiwanese vlogger. Also, while I'm not even a Chinese speaker, let alone any expert on the language, the accent sounds very different from what I hear when in China, so again, I think it is Taiwanese. I know this topic isn't of any interest to most members of this board, and in fact it is off-script to the forum topic which is really about HK, China and Taiwan (apologies!), but for those like me who wonder how gay and erotic businesses should market themselves within a niche (not just to the Chinese market), this is instructive.

Thanks, @10tazione... This indicates what bars and massage businesses hoping to draw Chinese traffic need to do. They have to work with selected Chinese visitors who can act as influencers. E.g. offer a discount to anyone who can demonstrate a biggish following on their social media. Better yet, have pre-produced video snippets of their shows or massage boys in action (always with their shop name in the background) and say, "hey, would you like to incorporate these few seconds of video into your social media story? it's free to use." If done well, these video snippets should be eye-catching. I know, reputable journalism has a gold standard where reviewers must not accept any benefit from the business being reviewed, but that's for mainstream journalists; influencers and wannabe-influencers are not above enjoying discounts, I can tell you that. Now why does this sound familiar? Oh, isn't that what ShamelessMack tries to do too? Haha. But, to be clear, ShamelessMack does not accept discounts or freebies in return for reviews. He does not even identify himself to any business, so no business knows to offer such deals -- to avoid precisely such as situation. ShamelessMack has no pretensions about bveing an influencer; well past the age group, and anyway, the readership is laughably small!