macaroni21

Nothing much new in this video, except for the floor plan. For a place licensed as a restaurant, look how small the kitchen is; surely no one should be fooled into thinking it was a restaurant.

That's more like it. All that earlier talk about divas... well, let's just say, it wasn't working its magic on me. (Not that I am anywhere near Jomtien anyway, haha)

Trump is so mercurial and the situation so fluid that even if people say they have seen no cancellations, is that any assurance what tomorrow or the next week may bring? I just heard, well maybe not 'just' but a week ago, from my brother in law that a couple of months ago when he to had to go to Germany for a conference after a few days stopover in Hong Kong (family matter, I believe), he chose a Chinese airline to get from HK to Frankfurt via Shanghai or Beijing (can't remember which he said it was). He didn't want any risk of cancellation too. The route over Russia was relatively quick, he said. Russian airspace isn't closed to Chinese airlines. What I don't know (I didn't ask) was the price advantage or disadvantage, but I had the sense that peace of mind was worth paying for, if necessary. Perhaps you could explore a similar alternative routing via China. Since you were going to transfer in Amman anyway, changing in Shanghai or Beijing isn't an added inconvenience.

Thanks, @bkkmfj2648 for the link to Motionspa. But here's the funny thing. Despite @18past19 having the hots for one guy there and then having the time of his life in a visit, when I scrolled through the "pherlatist" pictures, none, absolutely none gave me the flutters. This only goes to show how taste differs!

But just next to this thread is another which reports that US-issued Wise cards don't work in Cambodia. I'm sure @jimmie50 has seen that thread. Fortunately that same thread has suggested alternatives.

Just because one can use US dollar bills doesn't mean one should. I had an entire trip using only riel, and trust me it was far simpler and more efficient. And the notes were newer and cleaner. Just get a bank card that is accepted widely including in Cambodia and withdraw riel from ATMs. If you need a starting amount of riel before your first chance to withdraw from an ATM, surely Cam can lend you some.

@Shax The general rule in Thailand (and in many other countries) is that the more upscale a place, the more you must be careful to give face. That is to say, these upscale places want to maintain a clean public image, while somehow providing the commercially lucrative services and you must play along. The above is easy enough to understand as a concept, I am sure, but I think where the difficulty lies, especially for Westerners (and I suspect Americans have the greatest difficulty with cross-cultural issues) is the question "what exactly does 'give face' mean in terms of the nuts and bolts of behaviour?" It's not difficult to learn. Most Western expats pick up fairly quickly what Thais mean by giving face. In the specific example of TCS Spa, you can tell that it is an upmarket place from the photos on their website. Straight away, you should pigeonhole it as one of those places where your interaction must be one that helps them preserve a public image of a clean proper massage shop. So, as a stranger -- and a customer is a stranger -- you never talk about sex or ask any question about sex with management. Doing so would put them on the spot that is the total opposite of giving face. Yes, you select your masseur (they are so upscale, they even call them "therapists") at the time of booking. On arrival, the boy may even go through the pantomime of taking out a clipboard and a form and doing a questionnaire with you about which parts of your body needs more work or less, which parts have had previous injuries, etc. You have to play along with this theatre, even though, as @vinapu says, the actual massage standard in the hour to follow may be no more than "decorum". Even in the privacy of the room, it is best (i.e. least likely to cause offence and loss of face) to let the boy initiate the first erotic move. Do not be the one to initiate discussion about extra services. Let him go through the motion of giving a proper massage first. The boy may initiate funtime through strategic touching, or may even pose a question like "Sir, how do you want to finish?" Even though you're in the privacy of the room, you need to be subtle in replying, e.g. "Can you take off your shirt?", "have you done body to body before?" To maintain face, every question should be very carefully phrased so that he can say no gracefully -- that's the art of giving face. Note: I said ask questions, not make requests. At each step, let him notch the conversation up and you follow. Even on the question of money, let him initiate a request. He may say "Can you increase your tip if I do this?" As others have advised (and my personal experience too) hand job and body to body is about as far as most boys will go. If you want insertive work, choose a less upscale place, especially if you're the type that must have every service detail spelled out from the very start and want to have management answer your queries.

Hmmm... Sounds like @vinapu has snuck into Thailand and Jupiter bar like the Cambodians. 🤔

A peak inside Boycamp Bangkok:

@Londoner what you're saying is that Thailand as a destination will survive, but the gay bar scene that you and your informant enjoyed will not -- if it isn't on its deathbed already. I agree. But what also needs to be said is that Bangkok's massage sector and the Silom 2-type dance bars is probably going to continue doing fine, even if competition remains fierce and establishments come and go (novelty factor at play). Notably, these are geared to the Asian traffic, not the farang visitor of old. Where does that leave Pattaya? Probably nowhere. @Vessey above describes a revitalisation of a soi, but it sounded like it was still aimed at the farang market (or maybe the Indian market, but bear in mind Indians' spending power is very limited on the whole). The problem with Pattaya is that few gay businesses have figured out the importance of the Asian market for its future, let alone the importance of marketing. And so they're missing a huge opportunity.

This is interesting information even if I have no plans to be in Bangkok on said date. But here's a question that I have wondered about for some time: What exactly is Massage Insider? It's clearly not a massage shop. Is it like a network of callboys? Or is it a discussion forum where punters share tips about callboys' performances? As for the anniversary party, apparently with several rentboys in attendance, I am guessing that some people would buy tickets for the opportunity of meeting those boys, presumably with the possibility of arranging appointments in the following days. I'm just speculating how this business model works. If anyone knows more or can tell me my guesses are wrong, please let us hear from you.

I think you should specify that by "you all" you actually mean other US folks. My sense is that the majority of members here are not from the US and they won't have the same problem as you. So, like me, they won't be in a position to give you a relevant reply. However a brief Google search reveals that ATMs in Cambodia will dispense cash against Visa and MasterCards, even US-issued ones. If another US traveller has experience actually doing that, then hopefully he will reassure you that the Google result is true.

Some of them don't even wait till they're out of shape to start looking for new work. They know they're aging out of the scene. I have a memory of a guy from a bar who said we wouldn't need to walk back to the hotel; he had a bike. When I got to his parked bike, I saw a Grab jacket and even a Grab helmet. He explained that he was a Grab motosai driver in the day. Good for you -- I thought.

I hardly ever go to Siam Paragon, but yes Japanese desserts are nowadays the only kind I can really enjoy.

Ah, Baan Dok Mai..... what a dump that was.

Wait... this story is not as clearcut as it may at first appear. Much depends on the deal made between the customer and the boy regarding being off'd for a period of days. If the customer had agreed on a rate that represented the equivalent or near-equivalent of a tip for short-time or long-time for each day they would be together, then I think it's only fair that the boy should know he has to deliver. Of course, if the customer was not agreeing to such a rate and still demanded daily service, then there is a good financial reason for the boy to get out. However, the story mentions exhaustion, not financial dissatisfaction. If a boy in the sex trade cannot cope with daily sex then he shouldn't be in this trade. I've spoken with massage boys in Thailand and Japan, and many have told me they do an average of 3 customers a day, taking perhaps one or two days off a week.

Hmmm, new tech problem with the site. I misspelled "filling" above and instead used a term that connotes dental fillings. I caught my mistake almost as soon I hit Post, then tried to edit it, but I received the error message that I was past the edit time window. It was no more than 3 or 4 seconds.

3-high is within reason, I suppose, though I might still waste half of it. The slices of banana in the photo reminded of the last time I ordered one of those crepe things sold at night markets with banana fillings. I couldn't finish it. I felt sick halfway, and threw the rest of it away. Has anyone else also seen their tastebuds get intolerant of sweet?

Well done! Since I was curious about how much increase in elevation you conquered (and also curious about your statement about "not hot"), I did a Google search, and found: "In Erawan National Park, the lowest waterfall sits at approximately 100 meters above sea level. The highest waterfall (Level 7) reaches an elevation of around 400 to 800 meters above sea level, depending on the trail section.The hike spans a total distance of 1,500 meters from the park headquarters to the summit. The waterfall features seven distinct tiers, with the elevation gain between the lowest and highest points being roughly 700 meters. Planning to hike the 7 tiers? Here is a quick breakdown of the stages along the trail: Level 1 (Hlai Khuen Rung): The starting tier, located just 20 meters from the entrance zone. Level 2 (Wang Macha): Known for its emerald-green pools and abundant fish. Level 3 (Pha Namtok): Features a cascading 10-meter drop. Level 4 (Oke Nang Peesau): Known for unique rock formations and slide-like features. Level 5 (Buar Mai Long): A scenic and slightly quieter tier surrounded by lush trees. Level 6 (Dong Prouk Sa): The second to last tier, requiring a slightly steeper climb through the jungle. Level 7 (Phu Pha Erawan): The highest fall, named because its cascading water resembles the three-headed elephant (Erawan) of Hindu mythology"

I enjoy the occasional pancake, though I'm not quite familiar with iHop. The problem I now have is that American serving sizes have grown too large for me. Over the years, I have been cutting down on sugar and now each time I eat something that to normal people is normal sweet, I find it unpalatably sweet. I can put up with a small serving but even with a normal sized serving, e.g. a standard wedge of cake, I start feeling sick (not always, but often enough to deter me from ordering anything sweet). Do you remember if this shop's pancakes are stacked 4-high or 6-high? Or some formidable number?

Has anyone actually visited the Pancake Palace yet? Any reviews?

I feel I should clarify that my shorthand use of the term "rice queen generation" does not mean an entire generation, but a tiny subset of a generation, in the same way that straight men keen on mail-order brides are a fraction of straight men in general.

I don't think it is useful to speak of gay tourism to Thailand as a generalised, homogenous thing. By that I mean we need to distinguish the different market segments and (catering to them) the different business segments. Each of these segments have/had a waxing and waning cycle non-synchronous with the others and for their own reasons, e.g. the economics, politics or demographics of that segment at that point in time. Restricting my comments to Pattaya, I have never been a frequent visitor to Pattaya, but I have visited irregularly since the early 1990s. That decade I think I only visited the Boyztown bars, and stayed mostly at Le Cafe Royale Hotel (did I get the name right?). I can't directly answer @bkkmfj2648's question about the distribution of patrons among these 3 distinct areas in the years 2000 to 2010, but I think it would be misleading to think of a single market that moved from one area to another depending on their relative popularity. When I visited, just by looking at the offerings in the Sunee Plaza bars, one could surmise that Boyztown and Sunnee served different market segments. Most Sunnee bars, for most of the period, had barely-legal skinny fem twinks. For a short while, some bars went too far (more on this below), but as @a-447 said, the clampdowns came before long. My main memory of that period, 2000 to maybe 2010, was that the inside bars of Sunee had so-so crowds, but the open-front bars (very similar to format of bars in Jomtien Complex today) always had plenty of customers sitting for hours, with skinny fem wait staff flirting among the customers, almost all of whom were silver-haired caucasians with pot bellies. The customers seemed to know each other. So, to answer @bkkmfj2648's question to a degree, Sunee Plaza was pulling in the residents or semi-residents of Pattaya (snowbirds who only came during the northern winter) who had a fancy for skinny fem twinks, but for whom Sunee was also a community space. I would hasten to add that in my opinion, @a-447 described an extreme case, though I myself had a similar experience in one bar. I too was horrified. Let me segue a bit here and describe my experience: I was sitting in bar (can't remember which one now) and the mamasan noticed that I wasn't showing any interest in the boys (they were too skinny and too fem!), but s/he came to the wrong conclusion as to why I wasn't showing any interest. S/he then said, we have more boys, they not dancing now, they at the back. Follow me, I show you. I stupidly followed without digesting what s/he might be saying. Down a short corridor, we came to a curtained doorway. S/he pulled back the curtain to show me a filthy, untidy room with four obviously teenage boys inside. I was outa there like lightning. While the raids severely damaged the reputation of the precinct and made it risky for customers to be seen there, I doubt that it was the primary factor for its decline. I think the primary factor was the demographic receding of the type of customer Sunnee appealed to. In short, many of them died. They were not sufficiently replaced by new residents with similar tastes in boys. The new residents that came were less likely to be looking for skinny fem twinks. That taste is an artefact of time and place. It's a generation (for want of a better term, I call it the rice queen generation) that paralleled the heterosexual market for mail-order brides: men who bought into the stereotype of Asians being more effeminate and submissive compared to non-Asian partners. By the turn of the century, a great cultural shift away from that stereotype was gradually happening in the background, and Sunnee's allure was being left behind by that cultural shift. My guess is that Jomtien Complex added to Sunnee's decline. It offered a safer set of bars without the odium of underage activity. It was also less fem and twinky (but not by much). I think Jomtien Complex sort of inherited Sunnee Plaza's market segment, but a more updated, less rice-queen kind. On the other hand, Boyztown always appealed to a completely separate market, though there was some overlap. Boyztown had more straight-looking boys, in fact actual straight boys. While it had open-front bars that also attracted people sitting for hours people-watching, my sense was that (no less due to the density of hotels in the area) Boyztown attracted the short-term visitors more than the residents. But "short-term" is a relative thing. A short-term visitor from Europe or America might stay for 3 weeks. A short-term visitor from Asia, barely a week -- which has implications. Another great shift was happening that began to sound the death knell for Boyztown: the rise of the Asian tourist to Thailand and the decline of the white tourist. The bars absolutely failed to adapt to serving the Asian tourist and continued to rely on the shrinking white market. But it's a chicken and egg question too, because with an ever-shorter visit duration, the Asian tourist was much less likely to venture out of Bangkok (unless they were of the packaged tour kind), and so unless they showed up, why would the bars start catering to them? But some do show up, as can be seen from the large numbers of screaming Chinese girls in formerly-gay BoyzBoyzBoyz. And then still another great shift: the Asian tourist is relatively younger and is more than happy with the dance clubs of Soi 2 in Bangkok for nightlife. They are not great fans of the gogo bars (maybe also they see these bars as poor value for money, which is true, actually), which explains why the gogo bars of Soi Twilight began the decline, and now in Patpong, they're often in a sorry state. Boyztown's gogo bars are just the more tattered/shuttered version of this general decline of gogo bars.

Sorry to be a wet blanket but I think it's very difficult to imagine that the powers that be see any value in such salvage attempts.

I've had the pleasure of meeting Peter Jackson, but it was socially and in Sydney (or was it Canberra? too long ago now), though I understood that he was normally based in Bangkok. Unlike my haziness about the year or the city we met in, I have an indelible memory of the man being a fount of knowledge about gay culture in Thailand. Have never since met anyone as knowledgeable as he was.