The Dangers Of Assumptions

[PeterRS]

There are more than a few times when one poster will disagree with another. That is the nature of a board like Gay Guides Thailand and it tends to keep a discussion lively. Occasionally there are times when things can get heated and one man's disagreement becomes somewhat more serious. Reading back over the forums on the flight to Bangkok this afternoon, i was reminded of one recent occasion where I incurred the wrath of another. As i had just returned from a meal with friends and was leaving early the next morning for Taipei, in keeping with board guidelines I wrote an apology. Frankly, I did not believe one should have been made for I knew I was the injured party. On the other hand I did not want any discussion to get out of hand when I was away as I generally do not read the forum when out of Thailand.

But there is one issue which I recall reading with intense indignation just before I left Bangkok and which I believe is a case where one poster has stepped beyond the limits. I believe it important that the issue has to be corrected. Sadly in the relevant post @bkkmfj2648 made himself out to be a  sanctimonious pompous fool.

Why do I even consider writing that? For the very simple reason that he made assertion after assertion by attacking me in no uncertain terms in a ridiculous post in The Dangers of Colombia thread on May 28. When I happened to read it just prior to departure, I was utterly furious. I knew he had spouted major lies, but had absolutely no time to check back on my posts to disprove them. So to avoid further comment, I wrote a humiliating apology. As it turns out, that apology was a major error on my part. I take back every word of it.

Let me remind @bkkmfj2648, a poster who in addition to matters relating to sex enjoys making endless posts about cafes, restaurants, bars and what he likes to eat and drink when out of Thailand. Earlier this eyear in February I made seven very, very long posts in The Beer Bar in which I all but laid out my sexual history, partly pre-Asia in places like Paris, Amsterdam and Hamburg, but mostly in the nearly four decades I have lived and extensively travelled in this continent. These were titled TALES from a GAY LIFE (mostly in Asia) - there were actually 9 posts but the last two were repeats of previous photo journals of many of the fascinating places I have visited. The earlier seven, all posted on February 18, were extremely detailed posts with a mass of information not only about bars, gogo bars, saunas, male spas and the pros and cons of a variety of apps in each place, but also about some of the individual young men who had made my regular traveling both around the world but more especially around Asia particularly special. Some of the information had already been individually detailed over nearly 20 years of posting on this Board.

When I read @bkkmfj2648's disgraceful post, I wondered if he had actually read my long posts. This afternoon I discovered he had read them - all of them. Now I know he had given each of them a ‘like’ emoji. Now I know that in response, he had actually written a post in which he stated on February 18, “I wish that I had the writing style and talent that you have.  Your choice of word usage always mesmerizes me as a great piece of music does . . . I know that the primary focus of this site, gayguides.com, is to share our hunt for our sexcapades and share some of those details - which I truly enjoy and I do participate in those when I am having one of those adventures.”

That great music evaporated in a flash. In the discussion about the dangers of traveing to Colombia and South America in general, he concurred with the view about danger, basically saying he would not be comfortable in any such countries. I then made the point that in my month visiting four South American countries about 14 years ago, sex had specifically not been part of my agenda. I was there merely to see the natural beauty of that amazing continent, just as I had when visiting, for example, Glacier Bay in Alaska, traveling north of the Arctic Circle in Finland, and Petra in Jordan to name just three. I then asked a very simple question. “Merely out of curiosity, is sex an essential part of your traveling?” The implication behind the question was just that -  “simple”. Why miss out on some of the world’s wonders only because you might have a concern about possible dangers of sexual adventures in such places?

But to him that was as a red rag to a bull. He then accused me in his May 28 post of this being a “condescending question, framed as a mere curiosity, [carrying] an unmistakable whiff of superiority, as if the pursuit of physical intimacy while traveling is somehow beneath the refined appreciation of culture you so clearly pride yourself on.” What? "Condescending”? “Superiority”? “Pride”? What on earth made him write that garbage? He knew my posts. He knew of my many sexual adventures - when in the very first of the seven posts I had written of the admission by Edmund White in his latest novel of probably having had sex with more than 3,000 men, I had then written that throughout my life I had perhaps got somewhere close to that 3,000!

So he then wrote I was “implying that those who acknowledge sex as part of their human experience are somehow less enlightened or incapable of savoring the world's deeper offerings. This condescension, cloaked in intellectualism, betrays a rather narrow view—one that dismisses the complexity of human connection in favor of a self-congratulatory asceticism.” There he spelled it out again. “Condescension”. “Intellectualism”. “Self-congratulatory asceticism.”

Let me give @bkkmfj2648 a piece of advice. NEVER post such lies about any poster in future. As stated above there is a gentlemanly code of conduct on this Board that is part of the Board rules. You broke them - and I may also have done so with this post! Differing views are part and parcel of a Board. But lying so specifically about fellow posters is not. So I’ll end by repeating his own words, “STOP making condescending remarks towards my person in this forum!!!”

[floridarob]

1 hour ago, PeterRS said:

and I may also have done so with this post!

Yeah, I didn't see this coming..... not one of your best posts, and look at who's telling you this 😳

[Keithambrose]

13 minutes ago, floridarob said:

Yeah, I didn't see this coming..... not one of your best posts, and look at who's telling you this 😳

The sort of post for which the word 'boring' was invented! Also, seems to me unnecessarily  vindictive.  

[khaolakguy]

6 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Let me give @bkkmfj2648 a piece of advice. NEVER post such lies about any poster in future. As stated above there is a gentlemanly code of conduct on this Board that is part of the Board rules. You broke them - and I may also have done so with this post! Differing views are part and parcel of a Board. But lying so specifically about fellow posters is not. So I’ll end by repeating his own words, “STOP making condescending remarks towards my person in this forum!!!”

This post is deranged. I thought that I remembered the exchange but went back to check again.

I remembered correctly that at the time I also thought that you were condescending in your initial comments to bkkfmj, for exactly the reasons that he laid out. I thought that his post was very fair, and that your apology was appropriate and gracious. 

Now this nonsense diatribe! Just nonsense. Delete it!

https://www.gayguides.com/topic/76260-the-dangers-of-colombia/

[vinapu]

members in disagreement would do forum great service  by moving their discussion to private message section as membership at large  not necessarily dreams  about being lured into such disagreements. 

We are at liberty to skip posts and use  " ignore ' function for those posters we don't like for whatever reason.

Certainly we readers are not here to massage anybody's ego, certain things we may love , others not at all and my vent our opinion freely although not necessarily fairly. 

[ToTheCore]

Are you really that insecure @PeterRS ??

[PeterRS]

All negative and other comments received in the spirit in which they were made. I take full responsibility for what I post. 

[Olddaddy]

13 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Let me give @bkkmfj2648 a piece of advice. NEVER post such lies about any poster in future

Ahhh lol...love it 

Calling a spade a spade 🪏

At least you have the 🏀 🏀 to stick up for yourself 👍👍my respect to you 🙏 

[Olddaddy]

7 hours ago, khaolakguy said:

This post is deranged. I thought that I remembered the exchange but went back to check again.

I remembered correctly that at the time I also thought that you were condescending in your initial comments to bkkfmj, for exactly the reasons that he laid out. I thought that his post was very fair, and that your apology was appropriate and gracious. 

Now this nonsense diatribe! Just nonsense. Delete it!

https://www.gayguides.com/topic/76260-the-dangers-of-colombia/

The bloke has balls 🏀 🏀 to call it out .....unlike some who should of been born with a pussy 🐱

[Olddaddy]

[floridarob]

1 hour ago, Olddaddy said:

Ahhh lol...love it 

Calling a spade a spade 🪏

At least you have the 🏀 🏀 to stick up for yourself 👍👍my respect to you 🙏 

Which olddaddy are we talking to today , just curious 😉

[a-447]

Peter, I'm sure you are aware that I have  probably been one of your greatest fans over many years.

Your knowledge and experience of life in Asia over the decades is unparalleled. As such, I've lived vicariously through many of your posts and always looked forward to the next one, be it a travelogue, a sexcapade or an opinion.

Unfortunately, this latest post of yours is not one of them. 

[PeterRS]

1 hour ago, a-447 said:

Unfortunately, this latest post of yours is not one of them. 

As I wrote earlier, I accept all criticism in this regard. I did think long and hard both about writing that post and then uploading it. I had a reason for writing and I certainly did not consider it would be popular with many. But I certainly did not write it lightly. And I think some have, or perhaps might, understand why I was simply not prepared to let the utterly incorrect personal criticisms posted in the earlier thread stand unanswered, the more so when they were 180 degrees opposite earlier written statements. If you are, then I would perfectly understand your reasons. Unfortunately that does not change my view. I'm sorry you are upset by it.

[PeterRS]

2 hours ago, a-447 said:

Unfortunately, this latest post of yours is not one of them. 

Apologies! I missed the deadline for adding this to the earlier post. I take it from your comment that you are perfectly happy for another poster to attack your character. Not what you have written but your person. Posts i have made have been criticised on this board many times which I take as part and parcel of contributing to a Board which permits a good deal of free speech.

But the post I responded to was a direct attack on my character as I made perfectly clear when choosing the descriptions used and the specific words and phrases used. And it you fail to see that, then that is your judgement which I would respect, although definitely not agree with.

I forgot to thank you for your earlier kind comments on my past postings which I happily do now.

[a-447]

1 hour ago, PeterRS said:

 I take it from your comment that you are perfectly happy for another poster to attack your character. Not what you have written but your person. 

No, I'm not.

Peter, I know you will understand this, maybe better than most.

I was brought up in a culture where you refrain from expressing negative opinions of others. You are perfectly free to think what you want, but be careful what you say, at it could offend the listener.

When I joined these discussion boards I was stunned by some of the vitriol aimed at me on account of the opinions I expressed. This was a new, and unwelcome, experience for me. I fought back but found it exhausting and basically a waste of time. So I stopped posting my objections on the open board and dealt with it by private message.

And that is how I would have dealt with your situation.

I should have made my point clearer.

[PeterRS]

31 minutes ago, a-447 said:

And that is how I would have dealt with your situation.

I should have made my point clearer.

Not at all. I understood you perfectly and had I come from the same background, I would probably have dealt with the issue exactly as you would have done. But then while I know a bit about Japan and had the joy of working there for some years, I come from a country where we are proud of our heritage and, to a certain extent, of our own accomplishments.

That's not to say we deliberately go out and brag. But we do not put up with intensely personal insults, the more so when they are virtually the opposite of what one person has already said/written quite recently about us. Indeed, when they are to all intents and purposes outright lies! I will say till the cows come home, I can take criticism as much as anyone else. I may not like it, but if I could not take it I would not be a member of this or any other Board.

There is a line which I draw - and I believe that line is actually covered in the board's Code of Conduct. When someone has expressed almost profuse gratitude for my postings, lauded my style of writing and even compared it rather fancifully (but delightfully) to "great music", and when that poster then turns turtle and trashes me personally (not, please note, my writing style) by stating I personally showed "condescension”, “superiority”, “pride”, "self-congratulatory asceticism” and other negative qualities, for me that line is well and truly drawn. Hence my post.

[Keithambrose]

4 hours ago, floridarob said:

Which olddaddy are we talking to today , just curious 😉

You always have a choice!

[PeterRS]

15 hours ago, khaolakguy said:

This post is deranged. I thought that I remembered the exchange but went back to check again.

I remembered correctly that at the time I also thought that you were condescending in your initial comments to bkkfmj, for exactly the reasons that he laid out.

And that I submit is absolute nonsense! Since you refer to the original posts, it is only right that they be repeated here to avoid posters checking back several pages. The subject of the OP was, let's recall, the dangers of sex when travelling in South America, (in my view a perfectly legitimate concern and one which has been echoed in many, many posts in various threads). In response to a point made by @vinapu, @bkkmfj2648 wrote -

. . . this is also my exact philosophy, and is the primary reason as to why I have not yet ventured to some of these South American countries. 

I truly do not enjoy any experience where the hairs on my neck or arms feel the need to stand up - it is just not worth it, if I cannot relax and enjoy the environment that I am in, - especially as an elderly retiree, with who knows how many years are remaining in my life - why accelerate the eventual end by venturing into a perhaps dangerous situation??  Life is already too short.

And that as far as possible dangers of sex was in my view an entirely reasonable response to which I replied with a simple question -

@PeterRS - Merely out of curiosity, is sex an essential part of your travelling? I spent a fabulous month travelling around four South American countries and sex was rarely on my mind. It was a fabulous trip and I saw so many natural wonders.

Let's also recall that I then added a second post when @floridarob asked how old I was when I went to South America. I replied -

@PeterRS -60. I do go on other trips where sexual adventures are part of the agenda. For South America, the only reason was sightseeing [in ther words i was basically agreeing with @bkkmfj2648]. I had never been before, knew no-one and spoke hardly any Portuguese or Spanish. 9 cities/locations and 16 flights over a month (including 4 getting there and back) and each day was packed with activity. No time for anything else

@bkkmfj2648 then responded with the contentious post which referred back to my original question and started - 

Dear @PeterRS, Your condescending question, framed as a mere curiosity, carries an unmistakable whiff of superiority, as if the pursuit of physical intimacy while traveling is somehow beneath the refined appreciation of culture you so clearly pride yourself on. It’s a tired trope, implying that those who acknowledge sex as part of their human experience are somehow less enlightened or incapable of savoring the world’s deeper offerings. This condescension, cloaked in intellectualism, betrays a rather narrow view—one that dismisses the complexity of human connection in favor of a self-congratulatory asceticism . . .

As I said, @khaolakguy, you consider the above exchange was "condescending" on my part. Oh really? Please explain why. What in my question to @bkkmfj2648 - bearing in mind the discussion which had gone on between us beforehand - was anything other than perfectly simple? And what was "deranged" about my response above? I really wish to know.

[Olddaddy]

3 hours ago, a-447 said:

I was brought up in a culture where you refrain from expressing negative opinions of others.

Obviously not the Australian culture 😂....we are supposed to call people out and call then Cxnts !

[a-447]

7 minutes ago, Olddaddy said:

Obviously not the Australian culture 😂....we are supposed to call people out and call then Cxnts !

That's right.

Definitely NOT the Australian culture.

I'm still sometimes shocked at the way people speak to each other here. I guess if I haven't gotten used to it by now, I never will.

I just smile and remain silent.

[PeterRS]

20 hours ago, Keithambrose said:

The sort of post for which the word 'boring' was invented! Also, seems to me unnecessarily  vindictive.  

Oh really? And did you read the original - the full original posts? You mean one was not vindictive or any such similar word against me and my posts? I really do wish to know the difference.

[khaolakguy]

3 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Since you refer to the original posts, it is only right that they be repeated here to avoid posters checking back several pages.

I provided a link in my post to the thread referred to, only two pages long, so that anyone interested enough could see the comments referred to in full and in context. Better I think than a partial and edited cut and paste created by someone who is grinding an axe.

[Lucky]

Wouldn't this be better handled in a private message to the "offending" party?

[thaiophilus]

Before doing something controversial, I find it's worth asking:

• What is my objective?
• Can it be achieved?
• Will this action achieve it?

... and, subsequently,

• did it?

[PeterRS]

12 hours ago, khaolakguy said:

I provided a link in my post to the thread referred to, only two pages long, so that anyone interested enough could see the comments referred to in full and in context. Better I think than a partial and edited cut and paste created by someone who is grinding an axe.

The comments I quoted are not cut and paste! And you have failed to answer my simple questions: how is my post above "deranged"? And how was my post in the Dangers thread "condescending"? Seriously, I am interested to know. As I have said, I accept all criticism for anything I write. But criticism has to have a reason - and you have made quite aggresssive comments but provided no reasoning.