White Cat Bar, Bangkok, is open

[forrestreid]

Regarding the comment of @mauRICE on the reference to a customer of the bar as “Oriental”, I will submit to his wisdom that is now regarded as rather “not cool” to use it. Personally I would have said that, although rather old-fashioned these days, it wasn’t necessarily an offensive term.

However, given your location in Kuala Lumpur, I presume you have your finger on the pulse amongst the people about whom the term is used.

However, I think you’re wrong to suggest it is purely an equivalent of "Asian". I think the term "Oriental" when describing a person is more understood to mean an East Asian person, as opposed to an Arab or Indian. So by saying Oriental rather than Asian, Vinapu was giving somewhat richer contextual information.

Usage on this is depends on where you are from - in the UK Asian tends to mean somebody from the south Asian subcontinent whereas in America an Asian almost exclusively means East Asian.

In England you might hear somebody saying “there used to be a Chinese restaurant there, but it closed and they opened an Asian restaurant in its place” which would sound weird to a North American, but would be understood in England to mean an Indian restaurant replaced a Chinese.

[Keithambrose]

7 minutes ago, forrestreid said:

Regarding the comment of @mauRICE on the reference to a customer of the bar as “Oriental”, I will submit to his wisdom that is now regarded as rather “not cool” to use it. Personally I would have said that, although rather old-fashioned these days, it wasn’t necessarily an offensive term.

However, given your location in Kuala Lumpur, I presume you have your finger on the pulse amongst the people about whom the term is used.

However, I think you’re wrong to suggest it is purely an equivalent of "Asian". I think the term "Oriental" when describing a person is more understood to mean an East Asian person, as opposed to an Arab or Indian. So by saying Oriental rather than Asian, Vinapu was giving somewhat richer contextual information.

Usage on this is depends on where you are from - in the UK Asian tends to mean somebody from the south Asian subcontinent whereas in America an Asian almost exclusively means East Asian.

In England you might hear somebody saying “there used to be a Chinese restaurant there, but it closed and they opened an Asian restaurant in its place” which would sound weird to a North American, but would be understood in England to mean an Indian restaurant replaced a Chinese.

In UK, in my experience, on the escort sites, etc, 'South Asian' is used to denote someone from India. Asian can cover South East Asia, and China. Japan is usually separate 

[floridarob]

Words shift depending on country, culture, and language. In Mexico you’ll hear “chino,” “hindú,” and “gringo” used pretty casually. You’ll even see places called “Oriental City.”

Aren't languages fun 🙂

[mauRICE]

6 hours ago, forrestreid said:

Regarding the comment of @mauRICE on the reference to a customer of the bar as “Oriental”, I will submit to his wisdom that is now regarded as rather “not cool” to use it. Personally I would have said that, although rather old-fashioned these days, it wasn’t necessarily an offensive term...

However, I think you’re wrong to suggest it is purely an equivalent of "Asian". 

Where did I say or suggest it to be "purely an equivalent of Asian"?

The term has been used on me and I found it very offensive.

[mauRICE]

Instead of rambling on where or how the term "Oriental" may be used denotatively, try looking up its connotative meanings which are generally considered offensive, dated and derogatory when applied to people. It carries strong colonial undertones, reducing diverse cultures to a stereotyped, exotic or othered image.

The term is linked to historical discrimination, "yellow peril" stereotypes and Western colonial attitudes that viewed Asia as other or inferior and reduces diverse populations to a monolithic, exoticised or foreign image, often disregarding individual identities. Not surprisingly, I've often seen this blinkered lens applied to the diverse Thai peoples in this and other fora.

I suggest anyone who's interested in this topic read Edward Said's seminal tome, Orientalism.

[Ian here]

I was born in England. Asian there generaly refers to people from Pakistan and Countries around that area.

If someone was to say or refer to an Oriental gentleman they would be talking about China or around that area.

Australia, Asians are Chinese or people around that area.

The evening meal in England was called Tea and the meal during the day was called dinner.

Australia, midday is lunch and evening meal is dinner.

Can you imagine trying to learn English as your 2nd language?🫣😁

 

[mauRICE]

52 minutes ago, Ian here said:

Can you imagine trying to learn English as your 2nd language?🫣😁

 

Oh I dunno...Olddaddy seems to have had a fair go at it, as the Aussies would say. 🤣😂

[vinapu]

19 hours ago, mauRICE said:

Hi @vinapu and @Kiwi306, thanks for the brief reports of your visits. By twinks do you mean skinny, floppy-haired Jomtien Complex-type beings of indeterminate sex

 

 

yes

[vinapu]

19 hours ago, mauRICE said:

vin, it's not cool to describe Asians (which I presume is what you meant) as Orientals. While I understand that some of you are desperate to hold on to the belief that Queen V still sits on the throne of Empire, and a few of you might have even been born during her reign, those days are long gone. 

 

 

thank for that warning but without  a bit of sarcasm I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. I'm not privy to British colonial and imperial traditions and see no wrong in calling somebody from Orient indeed Oriental. If that's offensive it's news for me but I'm not surprised since those days everything seems to be offensive, when we talk and when we stay silent

[jason1975]

5 minutes ago, vinapu said:

yes

There really are twinks in new bar? 😜

[vinapu]

9 hours ago, forrestreid said:

 So by saying Oriental rather than Asian, Vinapu was giving somewhat richer contextual information.
 

you are my best friend and long-lost twin brother 

[vinapu]

8 hours ago, floridarob said:

Words shift depending on country, culture, and language. In Mexico you’ll hear “chino,” “hindú,” and “gringo” used pretty casually. You’ll even see places called “Oriental City.”

Aren't languages fun 🙂

yes , they are

[vinapu]

4 minutes ago, jason1975 said:

There really are twinks in new bar? 😜

yes, I found one quite attractive even if I'm not into twinks and another one less so but obviously ASIAN customer there had reverse opinion

[jason1975]

3 hours ago, vinapu said:

yes, I found one quite attractive even if I'm not into twinks and another one less so but obviously ASIAN customer there had reverse opinion

This particular Asian customer will be happy to visit next month!

[emiel1981]

3 hours ago, jason1975 said:

This particular Asian customer will be happy to visit next month!

Let's go together! 

[jason1975]

1 hour ago, emiel1981 said:

Let's go together! 

Yes. You can have the muscle guys. Leave the twinks to me!

[mauRICE]

1 hour ago, emiel1981 said:

Let's go together! 

Sounds like a school excursion. Who's the teacher-in-charge? Ohh don't tell me, don't tell me...is it Mrs V?

[floridarob]

6 hours ago, mauRICE said:

Sounds like a school excursion. Who's the teacher-in-charge? Ohh don't tell me, don't tell me...is it Mrs V?

The gym teacher.... @Olddaddy

[Travelingguy]

In the US, Oriental is archaic. It is not as offensive as many other terms, but it isn’t a term anyone would like to have used in reference to themselves.

I am aware that @vinapu is not a native English speaker. With that in mind and given his history of posts that don’t give me the impression of anti-Asian bias, I skipped right over that, “giving him grace” as folks in parts of the US are fond of saying. 

I would recommend not using the term because I like vinapu and am pretty sure that he wouldn’t want to offend anyone.

 

[forrestreid]

19 hours ago, mauRICE said:

Where did I say or suggest it to be "purely an equivalent of Asian"?

The term has been used on me and I found it very offensive.

Yes, you are correct. You didnt say that, that was my impression on it after a quick reading of your post. Apologies.

However, your point did bring up the question of what would be a good replacement for the term, which is why I wrote started my "rambling" post. The fact that it produced a bit of a discussion about the use of Asian as a term amongst readers suggests that there was some merit in bringing what a more precise replacement of Oriental might be.

You personally find it very offensive - that is respectfully noted. You might note that my commentary was prompted at least in part by seeking a replacement for the term, presuming that it was deemed unacceptable in say, Kuala Lumpur (in an acknowledgment of your presumed perspective).

You suggest reading Edward Said to understand why the term is offensive. I have not read him but I was aware that the term has been politically incorrect in academia since that book was published in 1978. But I had presumed that was mainly an issue in academic circles. I did not presume that this had necessarily spread to the general public. Interesting that you chose to use him as a justification for the incorrectness of the term. I have to say that I would have been more impressed if you had said that the term would be seen as offensive amongst all your Malaysian Chinese contemporaries in present day Kuala Lumpur rather that it had been demonstrated as such in a dusty academic book in 1978 (not meaning that necessarily as a criticism of the Said thesis).

Sorry if that seems snarky, but while I am all for equality and using non-offensive language (it would be a rather non-aware gay man who would say different) I prefer to think of it in terms of what the average well-intentioned man or woman in the street thinks rather than what is the current viewpoint in an academic seminar. 

[captainmick]

22 hours ago, Ian here said:

I was born in England. Asian generaly refers to people from Pakistan and Countries around that area.

If someone was to say or refer to an Oriental gentleman they would be talking about China or around that area.

Australia, Asians are Chinese or people around that area.

The evening meal in England was called Tea and the meal during the day was called dinner.

Australia, midday is lunch and evening meal is dinner.

Can you imagine trying to learn English as your 2nd language?🫣😁

 

You might have been born in England, but I doubt you lived in England for long as your post is largely incorrect. I was born in England and have lived in England all my life.

Asian general refers collectively to people from the Far East as well as India and Pakistan.  The term Oriental is not generally used and has negative connotations due to the derogatory expression that is an abhorrent abbreviation of Western Oriental Gentleman.

In England the middle of the day meal is known as lunch and the evening meal is dinner or a lighter version can be referred to as supper.  Tea is an mid-afternoon meal with a cup of tea often accompanied by a biscuit or slice of cake.  A more formal version can be Afternoon Tea or, in Devon or Cornwall, a Cream Tea.  In some working class industrial areas a more substantial but basic meal served in early evening is known as “high tea” which is sometimes abbreviated to tea.

Wikepedia explains tea well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_(meal)

[Olddaddy]

13 hours ago, mauRICE said:

Sounds like a school excursion. Who's the teacher-in-charge? Ohh don't tell me, don't tell me...is it Mrs V?

It's me ! 😎😎😎and ..🎵🎵.I wear my sunglasses at night 🎶🎶

May I ask have you ever wore your sunglasses at night?

[Ian here]

1 hour ago, captainmick said:

You might have been born in England, but I doubt you lived in England for long as your post is largely incorrect. I was born in England and have lived in England all my life.

Asian general refers collectively to people from the Far East as well as India and Pakistan.  The term Oriental is not generally used and has negative connotations due to the derogatory expression that is an abhorrent abbreviation of Western Oriental Gentleman.

In England the middle of the day meal is known as lunch and the evening meal is dinner or a lighter version can be referred to as supper.  Tea is an mid-afternoon meal with a cup of tea often accompanied by a biscuit or slice of cake.  A more formal version can be Afternoon Tea or, in Devon or Cornwall, a Cream Tea.  In some working class industrial areas a more substantial but basic meal served in early evening is known as “high tea” which is sometimes abbreviated to tea.

Wikepedia explains tea well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_(meal)

So, I'm as incorrect and google AI is incorrect.

Of course you're the only one here that is largely correct.

 

Sure!

 

 

AI Overview

 

 

 

In the North of England, the main evening meal is commonly called 

tea. While many in the South refer to this meal as "dinner," Northerners typically refer to their midday meal as "dinner" and their evening meal (eaten around 5-6 pm) as "tea". 

Reddit +4

• Regional Usage: The term "tea" for the evening meal is strongly associated with the North, lower-middle, or working classes.
• Meal Structure: In this context, "tea" is a substantial, hot, cooked meal.

[Olddaddy]

1 hour ago, captainmick said:

. I was born in England and have lived in England all my life.

I love listening to that song "🎶there ain't no England anymore 🎶🎶

I haven't heard someone say they were from England for many years ,they always say UK 

I'm from the UK they say , why don't they just say England?😳

Then all of a sudden they usually break out in that Kinks song

🎵There ain't no  England anymore 🎶🎶🎶

Oh please spare me the singing !!

 

[macaroni21]

I have a feeling that the English language is a particularly fearsome minefield of "banned" words and expressions. If I have to make a guess, it's probably because it's one of the few languages (Spanish, french and Arabic come to mind) that are spoken in multiple countries, and each country has a nasty history which has loaded some words with unpleasant, offensive historical associations. English speakers in one country may not be aware that in another English-speaking country, certain words convey unacceptable connotations.

And then English probably has the largest number of english-as-second-language speakers in the world. We can hardly expect them to know the countless linguistic mines that prevail in this place, that place and so on.

One example that immediately comes to mind: the word 'negro' is unacceptable in the USA because of (to the best of my knowledge) its association with slavery and discrimination post-emancipation. It's been replaced by African-American, though because that is such a mouthful, the members of that community often refer to themselves as Black. 

But try saying 'Blackie' in Australia and the politically correct crowd will crucify you.

Meanwhile 'negro' continues in use in Spanish speaking America without much of the angst.

As for Oriental, I agree with @mauRICE that it's best avoided because it is associated with colonial condescension, racist hierarchy, etc. 

I would use East Asian and Southeast Asian. I think someone asked whether there's a term that encompasses both groups. I don't actually see a need for such a term because in my eyes, they are visibly different. It's hard to tell apart the Chinese, Koreans and Japanese, ( and often Vietnamese, Lao and Northern Thai) until they speak or display cultural characteristics, but I have no trouble seeing this more northerly group as different-looking compared to Indonesians, Filipinos, Cambodians, Isaan, southern Thai, Burmese... i.e. the southeast Asians. Here again, I am not saying they are homogenous; the moment they speak or display some cultural mannerism, it quickly reveals their ethnicity.