macaroni21

I've been told that even during Sunee's heyday. Even checked out all of those bars except Holiday 2 which I don't recall at all. With due respect, what's "masculine" to Sunnee lovers fall way short of "masculine" to non-Sunnee lovers. With that gulf in expectations, there was no persuading non-Sunnee lovers to become Sunnee-lovers. Consider for a moment the "masculine" boys of the still-surviving Nice Boys. Can we seriously imagine the clients who go to Dream Boy Bangkok or Jupiter to appreciate Nice Boys' ragamuffins?

Try this other theory of change for size: I can't remember what its proper name is but I shall call it the tipping point effect. Applying it to Sunnee (and one might apply it to Jomtien host bars though they're at a different point in the trajectory for now), it goes like this: the market did not suddenly vanish. It declined gradually as Sunnee lovers aged or died. Plus, as @floridarob suggested, the fear of being caught up in the moral panic over paedophilia caused some to stay away. In the early stages of the decline, the businesses stay open, albeit with more and more red ink. However, because the neon signs remain lit, the impression one gets is that the market is healthy. It takes close observation of foot traffic to spot signs of strain if one has no access to the financial figures. Eventually a few business can hold on no longer. They close. That's the tipping point. Once their neon signs are switched off, the ambiance of the place changes. Customers notice and some of them decide to give the district a miss. With reduced traffic, more businesses close and the vicious cycle accelerates. On the visible surface it may look like a sudden collapse, but under the surface it has not been healthy for a long time. This is an overarching theory of change. Even the fall of the Soviet Union followed this path. Its decline started some 20-25 year earlier as Brezhnev and his circle consolidated power, but only became noticeable in the 1980s with Poland's Solidarnosc.

I don't mean to sound unkind, so please don't read judgement into my choice of words. Sunnee, I have long observed, was a kind of fetish place. Almost uniformly, the bars both indoor and outdoor had fem twinks, some bordering on anorexic. The clientele, almost uniformly, were white men. They were the first wave of rice queens whose erotic desire was shaped by mid 20th century Western stereotypes of Asianness as caring, submissive... i.e. feminised. (We still see that in Hollywood where Asian male characters are often emasculated while the Asian female is prized for her exotic beauty). This unique form of erotic desire naturally doesn't carry over to either the subsequent generation of westerners nor to gay male Asians. So when the first generation of Sunnee lovers died off, no one replaced them. Quite unlike the Bangkok gogo bar scene where gay Asians are the majority clients today.

In the front room, other than myself, there was just one group of Koreans: three guys and three girls. The dancers gave equal attention to the guys as to the girls. It was interesting to see how at first the (straight) guys flinched when the dancers approached them, positioning their pubic regions no more than a hand-span from the Korean guys' faces. They almost freaked out when the dancers pulled their trouser waist-bands forward to invite them to tuck a tip in. But that was just their reaction to the first 2 dancers. By the third dancer, the Koreans guys were just as into the scene as the anyone of us would be. I observed one of them do a full Vinapu tuck, to make sure the 100-baht bill was securely inside. After watching four dancers and tipping each one of them 100 baht, I decided to take a look at the women's room. Technically I was required to buy another drink to enter that room*, but I worked my charm on the manager and the second-drink requirement was waived. What did I see? A svelt white girl on stage curled around a pole and two other white girls in the sofas against the wall (from their skimpy dressing obviously dancers too, waiting their turn). But not a single customer in sight. *that's similar to what I been sayng for years about gay gogo bars. They should have separate rooms: one for rotation boys and offing, and another for just the show (at specific times). They should keep drink prices low for the room with numbertag boys and charge an extra drink for the showtime room.

Are you still thinking of buying a bar??? Not just in Pattaya, in Bangkok too, though it's pretty clear that Pattaya's gogo bars are in more dire straits than the capital city's. It's a real mystery to me. Considering these observations I've made (and I think most of us have made too): - 20 customers a night at best in a Pattaya bar; 40 customers as best in a 2nd-rung Bangkok bar; 70 customers at best in a top-rung Bangkok bar; - average spend per customer on drinks maybe 300 - 800 baht in Pattaya; 500 - 1000 baht in Bangkok; - average number of offs, maybe 10 - 15% of customers, at about 500 baht each time... The top-rung's numbers look viable, with revenue about 60,000 baht a night. Bangkok's 2nd rung bars look borderline, revenue about 35,000 baht a night. The Pattaya bars don't look viable to me. On the cost side, rent in Bangkok is way higher than Pattaya. The shows they put up also costs money. However Hotmale does not use external performers (read: gatoeys) for its shows, and some Pattaya bars don't do shows at all - so they save costs this way. Now that you mention it, 15 - 20 years ago, a Thai anthropologist whom I met at an AIDS event shared with me his theory (or likely inside information, more than just a theory) that at least some of the Soi Twilight bars were not primarily intended to make money from their operations. They were owned by wives of influential people, and the black money that these influential power-holders received in the course of their "work", were booked as sales revenue in these bars. You see, these bars are all cash-based, and thus perfect vehicles for laundering dirty money. The power-holders were also in a position to protect these businesses though there was some sharing with the local police precinct, to keep everyone happy. I'm just repeating what I heard, but it made sense to me then. Of course, I cannot swear it to be the truth.

Hot news! While X-boys is committing suicide, there's a hot new bar in town. It's on walking street only about 50m from the junction with Beach Road. Upstairs it has 2 rooms. The front room has male dancers and the back room has "Russian girls" as advertised Of course I chose to sit in the front room. The dancers come on stage one at a time since it's a small bar (and they really dance, including going 3m up the pole). All buffed white males, 1.8m, with chest hair. They're gender neutral. After each stage number they go to each customer and grind their groins in customers' faces, whether male or female clients. For a 100 baht tip of course. At first I thought all Russian, but at least one was Brazilian. No nudity however, just down to briefs.

I think he's in Argentina wanking away on a mountain 🤣

Replying to @Gaybutton, OK, I wasn't terribly clear. What I was saying is that since the default position is reciprocity (often the position of foreign ministries in many countries) giving US, EU and other westerners visa-free 30 days is already a concession. TAT will find it hard to push othe government agencies to agree to longer. For example, Thailand had long required visas from Indian nationals, but because India is a huge country and Thailand cannot afford to have consulates, Thailand operated a visa-on-arrival scheme for Indians. Now, why bother to demand visa-on -arrival when almost all arriving passengers get one? Might as well let them enter visa-free, you would think. The only logic is because India demands visa of Thai nationals. Only recently when Chinese tourists were far below trend did Thailand institute visa-free travel for indians. And even then, it was a temporary exception, just a few months. Why? Probably the Thai foreign ministry's pride had to be accommodated. (Though I can also think of another factor: the need to monitor how many Indian tourists overstay their visits - a perennial problem in western countries.)

There are plenty of good arguments above about future prospects and there's little I can add except to say that supply and demand, while important, aren't the only factors. Demand can be elastic relative to price and ease of access. Supply is highly sensitive to many external factors like social, political and religious pressures. Then, of course there are the usual issues to do with rent, grease money and availability of labour. With so many factors against it, and demand remaining flat (optimistically), thus incapable of overcoming negative factors, I fear the crystal ball darkens. As can be seen in lots of other countries, there can be demand, but no viable supply, that's why gogo bars are quite unique to Thailand, as far as Asia is concerned. Thus the tourist traffic. For now at least. Another angle is worth mentioning. Given the liberal Thai attitude and huge profits to be made from the girl gogo trade, that business is unlikely to be tampered with by politicians and social Karens. They may try (as they have) but are unlikely to succeed. The good thing going for Thailand is that they do not make too much of a moral distinction between hetero and homo, so if girl gogo bars cannot be eradicated and will be teeth-clenched tolerated, there will remain space for boy bars. That leaves economic pressures....

It was me. First hand report from X-boys Pattaya, confirmed directly with two mamasans 15 minutes apart. Madness. I have also checked with two other bars, and they're at 500 baht off fee which, if I recall correctly, is 100 more than last year.

As for tourist visas (I'm in no position to speak about longer-stay visas), a lot of the explanation can be found in the issue of national pride. So long as Western countries require Thai citizens to apply in advance for visas, so Thailand will feel justified in requiring the same of those nationals. This is not a hard and fast rule of course; the need to attract tourists can overcome the question of pride, but the tourism authority has to battle its way against the default position often defended by foreign ministries. This is true not just of Thailand. Reciprocity is the general principle around the world. Brazil for example is implementing visa requirements for US, Canadian and Australian passport holders and when Brasilia announced this, it cited the principle of reciprocity: So long as these countries require Brazilians to hold visas before visiting them, so the reverse shall apply. All that is left is whether to make the mechanics of issuing visas simple or fiendishly difficult. Thai bureaucracy, of course, leans towards the latter.

I can't speak for the hetero side of Pattaya, but "hazy" is too kind for the gay side. A new bar called Classic has taken over the former Cupidol premises, and stocked itself with about 15 fem twinks. Not a single customer inside. The mamasan could barely speak four sentencces of English. S/he was unable to understand a word of what I said, and to everything I tried to say (as simply as possible), the response was "What number you like?" I was out of there in ten minutes having performed my charitiable act for the month. Meanwhile at X-Boys, the off fee has gone up to 800 baht. I thought I had misheard the first time, so I asked a second mamasan and sure enough, she typed "800" on her phone to show me (the music was too loud for speech). At least I made a point to find out - not that I had my eye on any of the boys, all too scrawny and tattooed for my taste. The poor guy to my right later had an argument with the manager over the off fee when he was surprised by the amount being added to his tab. He then said sorry to the boy who had put on his streetclothes, and left the bar alone. You call that "hazy" or "suicidal"?

I found this site: https://friendlyhotelsguide.com/guest-friendly-hotels-bangkok-thailand/ Someone took a lot of trouble to put the joiner question to numerous hotels. Silom area hotels are below and need scrolling. But that's also when one notices defunct hotels like Om Yin Lodge, Tawana, etc. It's always difficult keeping such information lists up to date.

Oops, PeterRS got in the way 😲 when I wrote "it's a very old hotel", I was referring to the Montien.

It's a very old hotel, has been there for over 40 years maybe. I once toyed the possibility but was told that no joiners allowed. Speaking of which, I'd like to ask others who have stayed in some other hotels. Which of these forbid or tax joiners? Amara, 56 Surawong, Le Siam, De Arni. I have read on this forum that Siam Heritage does not allow joiners. I am thinking of amending my map to show hotel symbols in different colours depending on whether they are joiner-friendly. I think that will be useful.

@cuervoanderson you're in luck. I just posted an updated map of the gay ghetto this morning. Many of the hotels mentioned by others are marked. Except Rose Hotel, which I somehow forgot. It'll have to be amended when I get some time. See https://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog/2023/12/07/map-of-silom-surawong-area-december-2023/

re Patpong Museum, the signs are still there on Soi Patpong 2, but upstairs, on what used to be its front door, it says "Space for rent". RIP. I loved it when I visited.

But it was opposite Foodland for several years, in an upstairs series of rooms. Has it moved downstairs - is that what you mean by "lower"?

@joizy, Re Karada, do you mean this one? https://karadarelax-gm.jimdofree.com/

Hmm, DW must have switched it to private a couple of hours after I posted it. The short text version can be seen here: https://www.dw.com/en/a-shady-side-of-paradise-sex-tourism-in-thailand/a-67057449, and I recognise the still pictures, which were taken from the video. However the text article on DW's website has no link to the video. Maybe they will un-private the video after the last broadcast slot on 4 December.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkPVl2XP9Ws (nothing gay here. all about girl sex). An embarrasingly poor documentary. It shifts back and forth between sex tourism with paedophilia with no clear distinction between the two. The tourists interviewed were also pretty bad at pushing back against the moralistic undertone of the interviewer's questions. It is, at an intellectual level, an underwhelming piece of journalism.

More than just the issue of being able to think for themselves, I have also noticed a lack of general knowledge. One memorable incident was when I was dealing with middle management of a medium-small Thai company. One manager couldn't grasp the concept of time zones, and had no clue it was related to the spherical shape and rotation of our planet.

@floridarob Thank you. This helps.

Does anyone know of any laundry shop within walking distance of Boyztown in Pattaya? I don't mean a laundromat, but the kind of shop where they will take a bag of clothes from me and I get to collect it, washed and folded, 24 hours later.

You may be on to something. I was probably a lot more the visual type when younger, in that there were certain body types and facial features I was drawn to. Perhaps over time, having had great sex (e.g. in saunas) with others who might not be in my visual-acceptability range, and disappointments with those who were outstanding specimens visually, I must have learnt to pay less and less attention to looks and value touch a lot more.