Day 5

 

I already mentioned that I did few stupid things for this trip, forgetting ATM cards was main. Senility must be setting in or who knows what because shortly after I booked my flight I got e-mail from Expedia offering very good rates for Zing in Jomtien Complex so I booked two nights and forgot about whole thing. Rest of bookings were done shortly before trip and of course  I rolled over all 8 nights booking 2 night in each of 4 hotels- Baan Silom, Classrooms, Ambiance and Suriwongse.

 

Thanks to that for night 5 and 6 I found myself in possession of two rooms , at Ambiance and Zing. Sure  I could cancel Ambiance one as Zing was non –refundable  but for 21 or 22 $ per night I decided to keep both and see what happens but Zing was my new base camp because of proximity to Jomtien’s airport bus station.

 

So in the morning at 11 we are leaving our bed and I’m telling my guest that I’m moving to Jomtien in 1 hr. It turned out that we are going together as this is where he lives in one of side sois.

 

I travel lightly so packing did not take much of an effort and shortly we were  marching to baht bus. There was another guy smiling at me for reason unknown but shortly I learned that he is friend of my companion and remembers me from Dreamboys visit  two days ago as he works there as barker.

 

Also Cambodian,  so good English spoken,  we had some conversation and at destination I invited both guys for a breakfast in Norwegian restaurant outside of Complex. Ample servings and not even 500 baht for 3 of us, drinks included , good value. Then he went his way and my guy offered to carry my suitcase , whole 8 kg of her , rolling on the wheels, to my new room in Zing.

 

Of course couldn’t just dismiss him right there so we had a brief horizontal session without any sensations  but lots of body contact and of course additional note slipped into his briefs. It was actually very pleasant idea. It looks that we spent together more than 12 hrs , one of my longest offs ever. 

 

I found  Zing very good value with good sized room  , some toiletries, tea kettle, efficient A/C ,  working room safe and discreet entry directly from the street , bypassing reception. Apparently it’s no longer gay hotel but almost all guests I saw were men only anyways.

 

In the afternoon I went back to Pattaya, in Boyztown had some chat over drinks with Kao the masseur in Copa, had chance of shake hands with aussie_ who was just passing by. Then I went to Pattaya Night Market  to buy a shirt and shorts / 630 both / and then returned to Boyztown via DasBerliner restaurant in soi 11 or 12 where I had a dinner recalling my time there with biguyby few months ago as he was one who introduced me to a place.

 

In Boyztown  I claimed my another room , in Ambiance and nobody on reception even blinked an eye that I have no luggage at all , other than toothpaste and brush.

Again their cheapest room is very good value with all amenities including , God knows why , two working safes.

 

Only bit chilling was fact that owing to renovation there were was actually access to stairs on the 1^st floor, just an elevator . But window opened so I thought , in case of need I just jump from the window.  If you recall I had long time promised for tonight by guy from Copa. But it was still early so right after BBB singing and clapping  I went to Nice Boys in order to keep my promise  to take # 30 home. 

 

Boys were already on the stage doing  their usual motions and my guy , seeing me was visibly relieved. I called him from the stage right away but decided to have some fun before fun starts  so called few boys , one by one to distribute several 20-40-50 baht tips in exchange for  a feel . One of boys actually suggested he will go with us  but dropped an idea when I told him that I only take two guys if one  f**ks another. 

 

Again it was fun being there. Then we took sontaew  to Zing for our short time fun. It was not that short  and plenty of fun although I had an impression  he was a bit less clingy than in the bar yesterday when he was perhaps trying to land an off.  But this is digression as he was a great companion. I did not try to convert to long time because I had that promise from Ko.

 

So we went back to Pattaya, him to his bar probably and me to Boyztown where Ko was nowhere to be seen even if we agreed at midnight’ s  meeting.

 

In meantime I got   full of disgust look from Dom who certainly considers me very  cheap and perhaps , after all stinky and after sending  that angry  eye toward me he disappeared inside of hotel. After ½ hr waiting for Ko in wain I decided to step inside of BoyzBoyzBoyz where midnight show was on.

 

Tipped friendly mamas an 100 baht to find me Keow, the hunk of Moonlight model quality. Known to me from previous arrangements although when he joined me in a minute it took some explanation to help  his   memory to recall me or at least he pretended to .  Definitely sitting next to such awesome  body with option to hug it tightly warrants a drink and as it turned out shortly , another one at 350 a piece.  Short time negotiated , agreed smilingly and then after a while he asked for permission to go out and smoke.

 

Upon return I was hit with news that he will not go with me tonight because he has another client. Been there , done that  in May 2015 at Tawan so  upsetting sense of déjà vu hit me immediately but really what , other than resigning to my fate could I do ?

 

I’m in Thailand to get a guys , not to get even.

 

But mightily upset I was , finished my beer and left  bar soon to cool down by taking stroll to Walking street and back . Returned to the soi well past 2 but still it was some activities included two masseurs on duty in the hotel.

 

One closer was quite attractive so I asked about completing the night together  but firm 4000 all inclusive quitation chilled me a bit and no yield was forthcoming  so we settled on massage at 1900, house charged included. Great body but not much of massage other than  caressing my back with one hand  as he was keen on getting to serious part ASAP .

 

It was 4 when he left and I went to bed cursing Thailand and her boys,  vowing  not to put my foot here again. Yes , honest to God I did that,   but seriously , after getting angry looks from one , previously handsomely paid guy, with another one no-show for a long time  appointment , third one dumping me mid-bar and massage boy with great body not even interested in massage what I was supposed to do? Sing?

 

So it was how day 5 finished but  still , after all that upset and cursing I slept soundly.

Still following and enjoying this detailed trip report, thank you to vinapu for writing it up for us.

Sorry for the series of unfortunate events Vinapu.

 

But it was not a totally bad night, you had a good ST with #30.

 

Can't wait for the triumphal return to Bangkok!

Sorry for the series of unfortunate events Vinapu.

 

But it was not a totally bad night, you had a good ST with #30.

 

Can't wait for the triumphal return to Bangkok!

on my way but  still one more day in Pattaya

It was never fun to have arrangements made and one party bailed, especially when u make plans around that arrangements. Since you don't exchange contacts with the boy, it's pretty hard to even trying to find the boy without engaging mamasan. If it happened to me, id just call it a day, and maybe try tomorrow lol

It was never fun to have arrangements made and one party bailed, especially when u make plans around that arrangements. Since you don't exchange contacts with the boy, it's pretty hard to even trying to find the boy without engaging mamasan. If it happened to me, id just call it a day, and maybe try tomorrow lol

it was exactly why I was so upset with series of such unfortunate events , one after another.

 

 As much as I like my boys , since I'm one who hires them,  I don't feel like I'm one who is supposed to find them expecting guy to be there as agreed and if he is not , after reasonable time,  but no more then  1/2 hour  I feel I'm free of any obligation.

 

I'm not travelling that far to call a day , there are always other options and opportunities.

 

as with trying tomorrow, wait for next installment of my story. As I said above , I';m not there to get even , I'm there to get a guy.

 As much as I like my boys , since I'm one who hires them,  I don't feel like I'm one who is supposed to find them expecting guy to be there as agreed and if he is not , after reasonable time,  but no more then  1/2 hour  I feel I'm free of any obligation.

 

Exactly!  Thirty minutes is more than fair. It is their job after all.  No one is so cute that they get to feel empowered to fool around with me. We travel a long way at great expense to employ them; they are obligated or should seek other employment.

I'm not that harsh, after all no-shows are ones who weren't paid yet. If they don't want contract, fine with me. Doesn't make me happy but I let them go. 

 

But I expect  them to keep promises at least of showing up for appointed time  and if something doesn't work, accept it with the same grace  I do, not to make condemning faces. Guy who will not take my proposal is not my enemy and I don't want to be his, just because for one reason or another he is pricing himself above market segment I'm in.

 

All boils down to a basic decency.  

Wow, Vinapu. I was not implying that we should be harsh. I'm just pointing out that if he does not show up in a reasonable amount of time then you are free to move on. In fact, if you see him later there is no reason to be harsh and I don't suggest that. It was his loss,

 

I remember a time years ago in San Francisco. I had a terrific guy one night. We went to a good dinner in North Beach and had a great time at the hotel. So good that I arranged to see him the next morning before work. He did not show, I got back to the hotel and found a nasty note; he was very upset that I was not there.

 

Later, at the bar on Polk Street, he was mad at me. Both the bartender and I explained to him that despite his good reasons for being an hour late he had to understand that I was in town for work and had to leave. We made up and I took him to another nice dinner. 

 

In Thailand, I would do this again, despite having no work to do. His obligation is to get here not yours to wait more than a reasonable time.

Day 6

 

I slept not only soundly but unusually long. It was 9.40 when sound of drilling wake me up. There’s ongoing renovation in Ambience and can’t say it was unreasonable- construction noise at that time.

 

Breakfast at Foodland in Royal Garden Plaza and from there I took motorsai  for 120 baht to, Mini Siam near North Pattaya Bus  station recommended to me  by ChristianPFC  few days ago . I did not have any big hopes expecting tacky tourist trap but it turned quite enjoyable and easy  to navigate with dozen miniature replicas of famous buildings all around the world and  from Thailand.

 

Being blessed in the past with opportunity   to see most in real of what was shown  I must say , pretty accurate replicas with Abu Simbel  most impressive  but even  Ho Chi Minh  mausoleum from Hanoi made it’s way there as well as Easter Island heads / moais / planted in the grass almost like on the Rano Raraku volcano slopes.

 

Worth 300 admission  and 240 round trip  motorsai fare / driver offered to wait for me, I’m not surprised /. Word  of warning, there are places to buy refreshmnets and restaurant where one can dine , there’s  almost no shade  there.

 

Returned to Boyztown and spotted Ko who claimed he was waiting for me last night but when and where remains mystery so he suggested repeat for tonight and I happily agreed , again at midnight.

 

Then I went to Alt Heidelberg for my last Pattaya dinner this trip and again had an option to admire that handsome contractor I saw another day. What a specimen !

 

Then return to Zing where my suitcase is to prepare myself for night adventures. Upon return to Boyztown I spied Kao at Copa so we had again enjoyable massage session. After that some beer on the terrace waiting for BBB’s 9 pm singing, joined there williewillie and his friend who  just arrived and shortly after  Keow, one who shamelessly dumped me mid-bar last night passed by ,  smiled at me so I decided to dump any grudges and waved him over to join me for a drink .

 

How one can be upset with such a hunk ! I’m not sure who raised going with me option  but  it was fast tracked , we finished our drinks , shake hands with Williewillie and his friend and disappeared inside Ambience for  very  steamy session, unfortunately short time only as he was not interested in long time even if I raised an option.  But great time it was , fitting redemption of last night’s mishap.

 

At 11.20 pm I was in the soi again, no Ko in sight, went even to Copa to see if he is with client perhpas but no sign of him  but still hoping I decided to shorten wait by taking on Castro show. 160 baht drink, well positioned chair and almost full house. I saw it many times but it was quite enjoyable and funny, patrons distributed a lot of tips and drinks to performers  and one of waiters was really  cute, fact noticed not only by me as later one he went with some farang as I , still waiting for no-show Ko was watching.

 

No idea what happened but at 2 am after watching whole soi to go to sleep I gave up waiting and went to 7/11 to chill myself with ice cream. Few massage guys were still sitting at Scandic including my old acquaintance Yut who did not waste much time and start pimping me one of their boys, slim and quite good looking. Keen on some consolation I gave up to temptation, I liked guy  and I like when they try to help each other, paid 400 fee and took guy with me upstairs.

 

Not much massage and he declined to stay till morning but was clingy and pleasant  enough  to earn promised 1000 baht tip.

And so day 6 and my last night stay in Pattaya were over.

Great report! Looks like you had a great short trip!! Looking forward on reading on your return to Bangkok!

Wow another no show from Ko, wonder if he was actually waited for you previously and now its his turn to make u wait, who knows. You are generous to give not one but two boys a second chance, and at least one did gives you good time, while the other probably don't deserve the second chance at all.

The only guys who will never go with another customer while I'm in town are my two regulars in Bangkok and Pattaya.

 

For all the others who promise to wait for me and are not in the bar when I turn up, the "bird in the hand" principle applies. And as business is business, I don't have a problem with that.

Wow another no show from Ko, wonder if he was actually waited for you previously and now its his turn to make u wait, who knows. You are generous to give not one but two boys a second chance, and at least one did gives you good time, while the other probably don't deserve the second chance at all.

it will be one of those life mysteries as I know him for years and idea of long time came from him.

 

I had few good experiences with second  chances  and both guys were my previous encounters so why not ? No, they both deserve repeat  but that whole debacle was mightily upsetting.

 

As I said already , I'm there for good time , not to get even but on another hand there are other fish in the sea not to mention other sea / Bangkok/  which this time beat Pattaya big time  after a few trips where she was clear winner.

The only guys who will never go with another customer while I'm in town are my two regulars in Bangkok and Pattaya.

 

For all the others who promise to wait for me and are not in the bar when I turn up, the "bird in the hand" principle applies. And as business is business, I don't have a problem with that.

But I do as in such case it's not only me who is pissed off  but also most likely some other boy who could get my business but he  did not and likely went home empty handed ( I had an eye on ABomb guy sitting outside but went for known quality, better idea  I thought ) while I was waiting in vain.

 

Yes business is business but promise is promise, specially when made to known client with proven track record.

 

Going for smoke just to announce that arrangement just made is null and void is another way of saying 'fuck you ' in my books.

 

On short trip where time is very limited such manipulations hurt even more.

 

I don't hold grudges but don't expect to be happy when guys are putting me in my place in such manner, after all I had my choices too.

 

Take Oud on day 2 who was waiting for me till bar almost emptied just because I told him I will come for him that night and I did, God and ChristianPFC my witnesses.  

Day 7

 

Waking up alone – out of 6 nights so far  this is third time I suffer  such indignity . So it turned that I did not utilize my room at Zing at all other than storing my meager possessions but I kind of liked idea of flexibility two rooms at the same time in two different locations gave me. Specially the cost was not overwhelming and cheapest rooms  turned out quite comfortable.

 

For breakfast to one of restaurants on the Beach Road , nice breeze blowing into face but whatever  I could have for 100 at Foodland cost me 200 for view and breeze. 

 

Then few steps to internet café in soi post office where I got PM from williewillie that Art, may favorite guy from BBB not seen for few months suddenly appeared at BigBoys last night and if I had phone he would alert me about that. Last straw to break my back in Pattaya this trip but what one can do? Collect pieces together, grin and carry on.

 

Than off to Jomtien Complex, fast packing and at noon on the dot I left my room there, walked to bar near bus station to have a beer waiting for my 1 pm bus and at 2.50 pm  I was back in Swampy .

 

Train to city was very crowded, almost at capacity leaving airport so I guess quite a few flight must have arrived at the same  time. This time my destination was Suriwongse hotel, right opposite of Moonlight. I never stay there overnight but used their short time rooms on ground level on few occasions in the past.

 

Advantage is location in thick of the action , not only for Moonlight but soi Twilight being across the street and still location is in quiet and discreet corner. Very popular at one time , now shows it’s age sand room can use some renovation although washroom part was clearly recently renovated and shiny.

 

No safety deposit box in the room but there are boxes on reception which can be rented for 600 baht / month according to sign. There’s free computer  with internet in the lobby as well, breakfast was included and room was spacious enough and clean but lacking tea kettle which was feature all other hotels I stay this trip but I came prepared as I like my tea and always carry immense heater .

 

  At first I was not very impressed but after a while I realized I like it and not only because Moonlight is right there but also because location is convenient for other places yet quiet. Raya it is not but at 500 baht less it’s good value for money and chances are it was not my last time there. 

 

As always I did my walk around Patpong area  , bought few necessities and close to 7 p.m. marched to soi Twilight right to Bangkok Massage where in absence of my regular Namu who went home I asked if Kai is there. Very muscular but with still baby faced guy , known to me from the past entertained me for next 90 minutes with strong and fast paced massage and some other suitable activities , 700 for the house and twice as much  for him which made him very happy, ‘really, that’s  for me?”. I quoted  Oud , my favorite Jupiter boy  ‘you happy , I happy” .

 

Smiling I left the place to see paulsf and DivineMadman sitting across the soi in Maxi so I joined immediately.  Not before long  anddy  joined us. Latest  news exchanges, schnitzel dinner , some beer , very nice forum  reunion indeed !

 

But as evening was progressing I felt some itching as I had designs for the evening. Of course in close neighborhood , namely Moonlight once more. I liked that adventure with Nicky week ago and was hoping to get acquainted with other models ,  either Fluke or Sunny,   as Numazu says , money be damned.

 

Three gentlemen wished me luck, we made arrangements to meet tomorrow and I sprinted to see what night will bring. Entered bar exactly when show was starting , found a seat , was  immediately recognized by one of mamasans who helped me facilitate off with Nicky last time i.e. collected 50 or 100 baht tip then and was probably hoping for the same tonight. As soon as I settled who is rushing toward me, whole in smiles? Nicky himself.

 

Another drink ordered , hands held, heaven is near . What I did not expect was apology as he  noted that I probably did not like Japanese club we went to last Saturday but I told him truth, club , experience and food I  liked , it was bill which I found excessive but told him not to worry because , which was truth again, I liked him which earned me warm embrace and one needs to see and even more important to feel the guy to understand that it was very pleasant moment indeed.

 

When asked if he will go with me tonight I told him truth that probably not because I want to see somebody else he took it matter-of- factly without any fuss with only comment ‘ may be tomorrow?’ and did not even wait for an answer. Very polite and professional and very , very everything.

 

 As time for the models presentation was coming , he finished his drink , collected his 100 tip tucked in his undies and went to prepare himself for a show , his place immediately taken by mamas an standing nearby whom I asked to find if Fluke will be available and willing to go with me. Oiled with red note he left , not to be seen again for a good while but I was occupied with show and model presentation waiting patiently. Show at Moonlight is more revealing that Jupiter one and rigid manhoods  are to be seen here and there.

 

Apart from show on the stage I had one in front of me. Middle aged and quite handsome Chinese invited # 15 to seat with him and #15 is man of such good muscular look with manly face they only reason he is not part of model crew must be religious, LOL. It was clear they will go together as shortly he left to dress but not before I satiated myself with view of his broad shoulders and as I said , Chinese guy was good looking as well. 

 

Clearly my Guardian Angel rolled his sleeves today as finally mamasan arrived  smiling with good news  that Fluke will join me soon . After ¼ of eternity  i.e few minutes he was right there , wai-ing me politely , I shook his hand , invited him to seat, drink was ordered and nirvana started . Just sitting in close proximity to such a hunk was worth 29 hours of travel, feeling firmly enforced when he placed   his hand on my knee and I embraced him with my left arm and placed my right hand on his massive and steely forearm. 

 

Getting hot in here but is not my fault that he  is very close to what my standard of excellent manframe is. Muscular but not overbuilt, veiny, bit hair here and there, man man. Lots of smiles but not so much of conversation  due to his limited English  but with municipal elections in Burkina Faso settled  I could use some  time of quiet admiration specially that  my question ‘ are you going with me ? ‘ was understood and answered with unqualified  YES immediately .  “How much you want ? “ was met with shy smile and this is all I wanted to know. 

 

I couldn’t wait to leave but having good heart and using mamasan to translate I told him that if he has show I will wait for him because he is so handsome I don’t want take him from other patrons.  

 

 

It was good move as both seem to be pleased with what they heard and I was not BS at all although I was not entirely altruistic either. Imagine boost to my self –esteem to be seen sitting in company of such a specimen in a packed  bar, full if envious  eyes  . So he left me for a while but now I was in mood I could wait  for hours watching stage with go-gos , all very carefully selected and  of great masculine looks.  Fluke’s number was first in second show and soon after he came dressed so 1000 baht off fee paid along with bin content .

 

It was quite a bit , off fee plus 3 drinks but expense was last of my mind as dream finally came true and I liked feeling of anticipation what’s next.  I had my share of stars which turned out losing shine fast in the room. When we were leaving another mamas an came to Fluke telling him somebody is interested but he pointed at me, quite a contrast with goings  2 days ago at BBB. Trek to the hotel was extremely short  and  before I could whisper ’ thank you Guardian Angel” we were in the room.

 

Finally ! No problem showering together , no problem with anything. Great look, great built everywhere and great attitude. And good upbringing. We showered together but I finished first , he was still soaking but when I  left washroom he closed door, out of habit I guess.

 

The same repeated when we were done  and took shower again. Sure he likes girls better confirmed  when asked but ‘boys like nit noy” he smilingly acknowledged.  No  attitude, no time watching ,no rush  it look that those Moonlight models are keeping some standard because Nicky was the same and alizizou had identical impression 

 

Just by length of this story you can sense that  it was night to remember. Of course I tried to convert it to long time but he declined , from translation  on the phone I understood he has either job or something to do in the airport area at 9 in the morning so I resigned to my fate of sleeping in empty bed but warmed by  such magnificent hunk.

 

Substantially poorer but immensely happier I slept like  a baby finishing day 7 sweetened by both Kai and Fluke. Who would have think that 2 days ago I was swearing  never to return. Long live Thailand!

 

Even now, week later I’m smiling typing that.

Vinapu, great report.

 

First, I know I'm going to embarrass myself as I'm sure everyone else gets it, but what do you mean by "elections in Burkina Faso"?

 

The old Suriwongse. Years ago, on maybe 20 trips this is  where I and a great many others stayed, I was, relatively young, and an older guy called it "the mother house of our order."

 

Perhaps my favorite food is Schnitzel. How is it at Maxis?  Pork or veal? Nach Wiener art?

Bangkok becoming more and more expensive 1K off fee not including drinks really outrageous , No wonder I go straight to Pattaya .

Bangkok becoming more and more expensive 1K off fee not including drinks really outrageous , No wonder I go straight to Pattaya .

It was off fee for 'models' in moonlight...'floor boys' off fee is 500 only.

It was off fee for 'models' in moonlight...'floor boys' off fee is 500 only.

For the last seven years, I went to Pattaya straight from Swampy. But this coming year I plan to dip my toe in Bangkok again. For several reasons. After 30 hours ( door to door ) trip I can use a rest and a facial at Cutey Beuty rather than a two-hour cab ride.

 

Bangkok is cheaper but on balance with so many things to do beyond the bars, it is, perhaps, worth dividing one's time.

Loved, loved your report about encounter with Mr Fluke.

I might pay a visit to see him in a few days.

 

I am also pleasantly surprised to read about Nicky’s apology.

First, I know I'm going to embarrass myself as I'm sure everyone else gets it, but what do you mean by "elections in Burkina Faso"?

 

The old Suriwongse. Years ago, on maybe 20 trips this is  where I and a great many others stayed, I was, relatively young, and an older guy called it "the mother house of our order."

 

Perhaps my favorite food is Schnitzel. How is it at Maxis?  Pork or veal? Nach Wiener art?

'municipal elections in Burkina Faso " is  my speak for small, irrelevant but time filing talk. Sionce hes English was limited we both were spared that effort. You know the drill : " how long you in Bangkok, where you stay, what country you are from etc. "

 

Schnitzel at Maxi's is almost as good as in Alt Heidelberg Pattaya and is served with very tasty and thick mushroom sauce.  

My standard fare in both places. Pork, I don't eat veal or as my friend says , 'I don't feast on children" 

Bangkok becoming more and more expensive 1K off fee not including drinks really outrageous , No wonder I go straight to Pattaya .

nobody wrestled me to pay that much , I did on my own free will.

 

Nothing outrageous, very high and in a sense prohibitive indeed but most likely it reflects fast that those models are not necessarily in need to be offed as they are paid well by the bar and tips plus cuts from drinks are making for steady income.

 

Even cheaper than  going to Pattaya is staying at home LOL. 

 

But certainly bar needs to watch business as after while novelty of whole endeavor may  rub off. On another hand it looks that drink prices in Bangkok went down a bit with 350   first drink at Moonlight and 200 only for a second.

 

Sign at BBB in Boyztown Pattaya says  ' 1 drink, 1 show only ' so it signals that nights of nursing drinks whole evening  may be coming to an end. 

 

But yes , Sunee and Jomtien are still in 100-200  baht territory. 

For the last seven years, I went to Pattaya straight from Swampy. But this coming year I plan to dip my toe in Bangkok again. For several reasons. After 30 hours ( door to door ) trip I can use a rest and a facial at Cutey Beuty rather than a two-hour cab ride.

 

Bangkok is cheaper but on balance with so many things to do beyond the bars, it is, perhaps, worth dividing one's time.

I'm sure you wanted to say 'Pattaya is cheaper " which is correct.

Loved, loved your report about encounter with Mr Fluke.

I might pay a visit to see him in a few days.

 

I am also pleasantly surprised to read about Nicky’s apology.

you should be as happy as I was. Let us know how it went.

 

I called it apology but it was rather apologetic acknowledgement that  I probably did not like the club which was surprising to me and very nice of him although entirely unnecessary.