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DivineMadman

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Posts posted by DivineMadman

  1. 1 hour ago, anddy said:

    "to take issue" again sounds kinda serious to me. I wouldn't say I took issue with "connote", it's just my understanding that a "connotation" is more of a side-meaning (similar to a side effect of a medication) rather than the main, true meaning of a word. So related to รับ I felt it's more than "just" a connotation, because receiving is a main meaning of it. Related to "bottom" it might indeed be more of a "connotation", maybe you referred to that rather than รับ (or both). Of course it's not wrong to say "connotation" here for either, so I surely didn't want to "take issue" with it,  just offering some additional (as you say, possibly incorrect, fair enough) insight or point of view, which in turn in a thread like this is never "necessary" in that sense. Just offering some views or opinions, that's all. 

    OK.  In a lighthearted post that was trying to point out that the word can have quirky little differences in the way we read it, and also provide some helpful information about common gay app profile uses, definitely important to say, "You shouldn't have said connote.  You should have said 'means'."  I see.  

    Never would have crossed my mind that someone would make that comment.  I wish I had never made the post.  As do we all, I am sure.

  2. 44 minutes ago, anddy said:

    why so cross @DivineMadman? I'm not trying to "correct" anything, or be overly serious about this either, I was just taking up your "linguistic tangent" which I though was fun and discuss some finer details of your or mine understanding of รับ. 

    Honestly - because it seemed very odd to take issue with the use of the term "connote."  I don't understand the need for the correction.  That's why.  In part because I don't the correction was actually correct.  And in part because I don't think was necessary at all.  

  3. 1 hour ago, anddy said:

    oh I got that wrong then, maybe because of your initial comment about being "constantly fascinated and amused" about the uses of รับ. Having said that, to me in all the examples you gave it is still a form of receiving or accepting, as in taking up a task such as a massage รับนวด = taking up/accepting the task/work

    I certainly don't understand why the fact that I thought it was fascinating or amusing changes anything.  Also, not sure why my particular examples lead anyone to then say no, this is something that must be corrected.  

    The word has several different meanings depending on how it's being used.  รับ the phoneme can also mean "take" or "get" (as in go get) and others.   

    Yes the bottom is taking it, as in "take it baby, take it."  But I thought I could just say that in that context the sense was the "receiving" sense.  

    Here I thought I was just making a fun lighthearted non-controversial observation.  Much less one that was wrong and in need of correction.  But so be it.  

     

  4. 2 hours ago, anddy said:

    it's not really just a connotation, "to receive , to accept" and similar are the original meanings of รับ, the gay bottom meaning is rather a slang meaning (that makes a lot of sense, needless to say), which is why it's not in the regular dictionaries. Only in the context of a discussion or statement of the sexual role does it become "bottom".  That's why there is nothing odd about the examples you gave, it's just our distorted gay perception that make those a tad odd haha ;) 

    Incidentally, the same is true of the English word "bottom" and its true and gay meanings lol

    my point was that in other uses it doesn't mean receive.  That was the point.

  5. 1 hour ago, anddy said:

    No unique assumptions here. You could just use the Thai words in an otherwise English statement or question. Like:

    "I am รุก"

    "(Are) you รับ?" [you can omit the unnecessary and (for a Thai with rudimentary knowledge of English) somewhat complicating grammatical "are" - KISS=keep it short and simple]

    On a slight linguistic tangent.  For some reason I am constantly fascinated and amused by how รับ can be used in Thai.

    Of course there's the most beloved of all รับ = bottom (has a connotation of accepting or receiving)

    So there's "I am+" เป็น+รับ (เป็นรับ)

    OR another way to say it is งาน+รับ (งานรับ), where งาน usually means something in the area of "work" or "job".  So work + bottom (งานรับ) means I'm a bottom or my "role" or "position" (hehehe) is bottom รับ.  [Already a bit of a joke, because we all know the tops do all the work.]

    But then if you reverse the two, รับ + งาน (รับงาน), it basically means working or technically more along the lines of "accepting work".  So the yummy guy in Hornet who says "รับงาน" is in it for the money. But he may not be a รับ.   A top (รุก) working might say รุกรับงาน (or similar variations).

    The basic lesson is that in Thailand it's much easier if everyone is just verse.  

    By the way, these aren't the only uses of รับ.  A massage guy will say รับ + massage (นวด) = รับนวด.  But it doesn't mean I'll "accept" a massage.  It means I will perform the massage.  nothing passive about that.

  6. Thai press briefing today said that 19 of the guys (I think) had COVID-19 in detention and had stayed in detention until they were cured before being deported to Myanmar.  Apparently there are WHO guidelines about how to handle deportations that the countries in the region have adopted.  They are following through with the gov't of Myanmar on this and the other cases.

    It could all be bullshit, or it could raise the question of whether Myanmar was reporting that the individuals tested positive for anitbodies.

    Perhaps we will never know.

  7. 2 hours ago, reader said:

    Somehow I don't see Somchai hustling down to Silom at 10p.m. to poll the Cambodians running for the bus to take them back to the dorms. And since this is a work of fiction, I'm just lending a bit of literary criticism.

    And my point w/r/t to the literary criticism was that I had actually addressed it, and personally, I don't think there's any doubt that the vast vast vast majority were happy to continue to work, rather than deprive their families of their earnings and go home where food will just get stretched thin.  

    So again, the literary criticism - and let's not forget the ""Why am I not surprised?" -  seemed off point to me and actually denies the Cambodian workers' their "agency" - as people say nowadays.

     

  8. 12 minutes ago, reader said:

    Now that is funny.

    But surprising that neither Somchai or the boss thought about asking the workers how they felt about it.

    On second thought, maybe not surprising at all.

     

    Actually, Somchai reports that the workers say they would rather be there in his first quote.  

    Does anyone really doubt they would rather be working?  All of the guys I am contact with or follow on Facebook say they would rather be working.  

     

  9. Here's a transcript of an entirely made up meeting at the Thai government in mid- to late-March:

    Somchai (Junior Official)  

    "Boss, I have a great idea,  I know the Cambodian government is asking us to keep workers here, rather than send them back where they won't have work.  And they're worried about sending people back across the borders with COVID-19 now.  And the workers say they would rather be here.

    Boss

    "Ah, Somchai, of course they would rather be here.  Thailand is envy of the world.

    Somchai

    "Indeed, Boss.

    "And, Boss, I know people are worried about shutting down the economy.

    Boss

    "And rightly so, Somchai.  The Thai economy is the envy of the world.  

    Somchai

    "Of course, Boss.

    "So I was thinking about the construction industry and the migrant workers from Cambodia who work in the construction industry.  What if we let them stay in Thailand and keep some construction going.

    Boss

    "Hmmmm.  But Somchai, why can't we say the same thing and keep the malls open?  That will make my mistress -- I mean my wife -- very happy.

    Somchai

    Oh, but there's a difference, Boss.  The construction workers live together, go to work together, stay on the construction site, and go home together.  The malls are the opposite.  People come from different places, then mix, and then disperse.  So that would be very different for the spread of the disease.

    Boss

    "Ah yes, Somchai.  And after all, our malls are the envy of the world.

    Somchai

    "As you say, Boss.

    Boss

    "But Somchai, the benevolence of the Thai people is the envy of the world.  Won't we seem heartless having our Cambodian cousins working in a global pandemic.  What if they get sick?

    Smooch

    "But Boss, don't forget, documented migrant workers are eligible for our universal health care system.  Even undocumented migrant workers are eligible.  Not everyone takes advantage, but we conduct active outreach and try to enroll as many as we can, and the Thai universal health care system is there for them if they need it just like the rest of us.

    Boss

    "Of course, Somchai, you are correct.  I didn't forget that.  I was just testing you.  

    "The way Thailand has expanded universal health coverage to documented and undocumented migrant workers is the envy of the world.

    Somchai

    "As you say, Boss."

    Boss

    "Well, Somchai, I think I have laid out my brilliant plan to you.  You may circulate it among the ministries.  

    "This is the sort of win-win thinking that will only earn respect for our Kingdom!

    Somchai

    "Yeah, sure, Boss. 

     

  10. One question then is are there hot spots among the immigrant community that have developed and been unnoticed, noticed and deliberately ignored or have not "bled" out into the general public.  Those would just be the questions that would need to be answered.

    There's a little bit of damned-if-you-do/damned-if-you-don't going on here.  At the time when things were closing down there were a lot of people being quite vocal that the worst thing to do to the provinces or the neighboring countries would be to shut down and send people home.  The fear at the time being that it would spread the virus to places such as Cambodia, Laos and Myanmar, even less able to deal with it.  If you're looking for a non-malicious motive, perhaps that's a potential path forward.  

    As I keep saying, this stuff is complicated.

  11.  

    26 minutes ago, spoon said:

    Its a white elephant in the room that thai gov choose to ignore

    I think they might say they are not ignoring it.  It's just they've adopted the track-and-trace model.  I have absolutely no doubt cases are being missed.  

    At a recent Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand discussion a Thai individual on the panel said the problem with Thailand was there were too many elephants in the room, but she was referring to something else, I think.  hahaha.

  12. 6 hours ago, spoon said:

    This confirmed my concern regarding thailand not mass testing foreign workers as their neighbors do. And further strenghten the reason why thai gov hesitate to open the country even when they have no locally transmitted case for more than 20 days. If 23 out of 35 myanmar citizen tested positive after coming back from thailand, i wonder how many more of them who is in thailand still might be positive. 

    Definitely mass testing would be nice.  

    Remember, these individuals were in a detention center by the Malaysian border.  Also note that 4 of them had come from Malaysia - ahem (not pointing finger).

    I absolutely agree more testing would be nice.  The other day Thai press spokesman addressed the general question of mass testing.  I forget all of the response, but I think the points he made were (1) they conduct rigorous contract tracing, and that is generally regarded as the more effective method and (2) the 1,000,000 person localized health volunteer brigade that blankets the country is credited with a lot of success of getting people educated and catching cases early before they spread, including the immigrant community.  

    He also addressed the question of significant undiagnosed cases.  His answer was that there hasn't been an uptick in otherwise unaccounted for deaths Thailand, unlike other countries where the likely answer is the increase in deaths is likely from COVID-19.

    I know that some of the NGOs are out there testing, which is great.  SWING will test sex workers and is offering that testing as part of its outreach in BKK and Pattaya.  Duang Prateep has been actively testing in the Klong Toey slum.

    But again, mass testing would be nice.  I am not disputing that.

  13. 1 hour ago, ggobkk said:

    At one moment in the past 100 days, I was considering a trip to Beijing.  It was a time when there were flights and the governments were speaking civility to one another.  I was told I'd need a negative antigen test before departing, that when I arrived I'd take another at the airport and wait at the airport for the result - possibly a 12 hour turn around.  Then I'd need to self quarantine for an unspecified period of up to two weeks - quarantine could be at a family/friend's home or an approved hotel.

    I didn't follow up on this, but I mention it as there are work arounds possible that should become more viable as more is learned/discovered/understood about covid-19.  

     

    Hong Kong currently tests everyone on arrival and you have to wait for the test results.  The reports are it takes about 8 to up 12 hours to get the results.  There is a mandatory 14 day quarantine.  They tell you where you can quarantine based on how they assess your risk (and obvs if the test is positive).    Because of the distancing and safety issues in collecting the sample for testing, the number of people who can come in is severely limited.  "Tourists" of course can't travel there now anyway, so it really affects returning nationals and special cases.

    https://multimedia.scmp.com/infographics/news/hong-kong/article/3082266/hong-kong-inbound-travellers-restrictions/index.html

     

  14. 10 minutes ago, vinapu said:

    in those tough times every decision may be contested if only because  nobody really knows what to do and how to react, governments and their populaces can only try.

    But success in controlling  disease can't be only measure. Stopping people from dying should stop them form living ( and earning that living ) only to a certain extend.

    Otherwise poor countries are taking risk of starving their populations and rich  may ruin their economies by paying people to be locked at home.

    As per last The Economist quite  a high percentage of unemployed Americans are receiving more in benefits now because of an additional payments than than  were earning . Where those people return to work if their workplaces will disappear in meantime?

    If the objective is to get people back to work and keep the economy going, even if that means COVID-19 spreads, there is a clear quantifiable cost in human lives of the workers and their families put at risk and the people they infect and so on.  Plus of course the greater potential for another broader shutdown of the economy and all of the costs associated with that.  And the people not at risk are the rich owners of the businesses who benefit but are still working from home or safely socially distant in their offices.

    So the "let's get people back to work" argument is hardly a clear winner, to say the least.

    Personally, I think these issues aren't lost on the governments that have taken a strong view towards controlling COVID-19, including Australia, New Zealand, the SE Asian countries, etc.  

     

  15. 1 hour ago, reader said:

    Unfortunately there are no 100% accurate tests in detecting Covid-19.

    In the case of the test cited above (Abbott's "Now"), even if you use the low, 84% figure, that doesn't mean that 16 out of 100 randomly selected people who take the the test actually have Covid but were given a negative result. For that to happen, all 100 would have to have been infected.

    The infected rate varies greatly in the general population. Persons living in different cities and different regions can have widely different base infection rates. For example, I live in a community with a base infection rate of 11%.  Assuming a 16% inaccuracy rate, 1.76 persons out of every random 100 in my community tested would get a false result . That's not ideal but as we learn more about the disease, we're being told not to expect 100% effectiveness in any tests, any vaccine or any treatment protocol.

    If you're testing patients in a clinical setting (i..e., those who come to a testing site because they have virus symptoms), the base infection rate is going to be significantly higher than if you tested a random group of people such as those you'd be testing before being allowed to board an aircraft.

    As much as I agree there are no easy answers in restoring global air travel, I persuaded that waiting for optimum conditions to come along is a bridge too far. For "optimum" conditions to exist, the disease would have to be eradicated by one or more medical or natural outcomes. And that just doesn't seem to be in the cards at the moment. Meanwhile, economies--and the lives that depend upon them--are at risk of being crippled. It seems to me, as more time passes more people are willing to accept increasing risk for financial survival or personal reasons.

    If I had to hazard a guess just how global travel gets going again, I think it's likely to be a result of demand. Surely the negotiations we see discussed daily in the news will be part of the process but they will evolve sooner rather than later.

     

    No doubt.  I was just making the point that it’s complicated, and policy makers are making difficult and complicated judgments of risk, and simply recognizing that fact - which doesn’t seem controversial to me - helps me be a little more patient and less critical of the governments that have actually been successful in controlling COVID-19.

  16. 10 hours ago, reader said:

    Test results can be had on site (at the airport) within 5 minutes with equipment manufactured by Abbott Labs.  They are in wide use.

    It's possible that some tests might not be sufficiently accurate for airlines or governments to "bet the farm" on, as it were.  https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-phe-laboratory-evaluations-of-roche-and-abbott-antibody-tests/ (Abbott about 84% accurate - in the bad way, i.e., failed to catch positives).  https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/05/14/856531970/fda-cautions-about-accuracy-of-widely-used-abbott-coronavirus-test  Abbott itself says 95% accurate.  

    which is only to say that this is all complicated stuff, so personally I am reluctant to say that there are easy answers to getting global international travel up and running easily right now, without the sort of precautions we are seeing countries discuss.

  17. 17 minutes ago, vinapu said:

    correct but that is the rich people's problem.

    I wonder what all those stuck in Udon Nowhere who can't return to their livehoods, be it bar, store or even local market  have to say.

    It's great to be part of nation which successfully contained greatest health scare in 100 years but will it compensate for drastic drop of income ?

    Thailand has certainly done more than most of its neighbors towards some universal income payments in the current crisis, but it’s been woefully and tragically inadequate.  It’s a developing country and does a shit job of taking care of its people.

    But the point remains that the workers in the factories and construction matter, and the grandparents back in the village matter.  The 88% of the economy that isn’t international tourism (or 80% if that’s makes anyone happy) matters.  So we can respect the government’s decision to be cautious on COVID-19.  

     

  18. 4 minutes ago, vinapu said:

    I wonder loudly how many of those will end up positive / hopefully none  / and how many will feel just imprisoned unjustly for 2 weeks, no matter how comfortable prison was ?

    I'm no mindreader, but they are all people returning to the country voluntarily.  Personally I doubt they would feel imprisoned.  Most are Thai nationals and my guess is the Thais are actually quite proud of their nation's success in controlling COVID-19.  Certainly in the press we don't read anything about the repatriated Thais being resentful of the quarantine process.  And it's world wide phenomenon.  

  19. 1 hour ago, reader said:

    Point of clarification:

    Source: Royal Thai Embassy, Washington D.C.

    Based on its trends analysis, the Ministry of Tourism has forecast that 41.1 million people will visit Thailand in 2019, and they will spend over $70 billion during their stays. Direct receipts from tourism contribute about 12 percent to Thailand’s gross domestic product, and indirect revenues push the figure closer to 20 percent.

     

    If 20% makes anyone happier then I think the same analysis goes whether it's 80% non-international tourism GDP or 88%.  

    There are reasons why people tend to stick with the hard direct numbers, they're generally verified because the methodology is generally agreed, etc.  One problem with the soft numbers is that the total often ends up to more than 100% GDP because different "people" (parts of the economy) may all lay claim to some of the same "indirect" revenues.  (It's maybe a surprising but at the same time obvious point.  Currently all GDP is 100% accounted for, so if International Tourism says it really is responsible for a greater percentage, that means another group is responsible for less.)  But there are reasons that portion that International Tourism wants to claim is put in someone else's column in the first place.  I think that's the main reason people generally think in terms of the reported GDP numbers.

    Of course the ultimate flaw with GDP numbers is that they don't take into account expenses or costs (including environmental) or even just what's best for the country.  All those billions of dollars spent on airports and tourism infrastructure satisfy the monied hotel owners and construction firms, but are there longer term benefits of directing the resources into education, skilled labor jobs, etc.  But that's for another day.

    1 hour ago, reader said:

    If (according to the report in The Nation today) Thailand has now reached 25 days without a domestic case, and all five the new positive patients were returnees from Saudi Arabia, who could possibly be among the 10,000 still in quarantine?  I agree that's a troubling and seemingly contradictory indicator.

    It's not contradictory.  It just reflects the fact that Thailand - like so many, many other countries - is requiring quarantine for all current arrivals.  As I mentioned in another post (I think), the constant drumbeat of new cases from these repatriated Thais can only make the government more cautious. 

    Just stepping back, Thailand is still currently repatriating it's own nationals - I believe at 500 per day max (?).  Next in the pipeline are permanent residents & work permit holders and then (as I understand it), with luck people with family members.  Maybe we can expect international students will need to get onto the fast track as well because the schools are opening.  That's a lot of people still be bring back into the country.  And personally I think they justifiably can go back first.

    We're at the back of the queue.  :(

     

     

  20. Stranger "bar" posted that they would be having a party Friday night.  I think they included the hashtag "#dragdinner.  

    You could always ask to order food at (if not necessarily from) the bars there, so good for them for recognizing their inner restaurant.  

  21. 1 hour ago, williewillie said:

    The curfew will be suspended for 15 days starting shortly.  The biggest problem will be a lack of customers with only

    Thai local and a few expats farangs until international flights resume in July.

    Will the bars and pubs be allowed to open?  Newspaper reports are that the "fourth phase" of reopening proposed for June 15 does not include bars or pubs.

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