macaroni21

Then it's some kind of record for best kept secret! But if a white striped vehicle can be chartered at any time to take a different route, and the driver happily takes on other unsuspecting customers en route, how can we rely on the white stripe to mean what it's supposed to mean? I recall reading about this too.

It's the strangest advertising strategy I have ever seen among the massage parlours. 🤣

So... if a business has been renting for 20 years, and the key money (as was indicated for Circus) is 900,000 baht a year, and it's paid in cash, then when the lease ends, the landlord is supposed to return 18 million baht, presumably in cash? (The landlord would have kept the interest earned). If the landlord does not declare to the tax authorities, does he even issue a receipt? How is the return of the accumulated key money at the end of the lease enforceable in a court of law, in the event the landlord balks at returning the 18 million?

I can't answer the question (when did V Club start) with any precision. But I believe my first visit would have been around 1997 or 1998 (and I remember the place fondly). I am fairly certain it was around those years because V Club was then in a stand-alone bungalow house along Phahonyothin Soi 7, and there was no Chakran sauna yet. I can see from a websearch that Chakran sauna opened in year 2000. That's why I reckon my first visit would have been a few years before that. Not long after my first visit, there was talk of a new sauna (Chakran) in the neighbourhood. Even then, VClub remained a separate business in its separate location for a few years more. Then it moved into Chakran's building perhaps by 2005 or so. Perhaps Chakran's owners bought V Club; or both businesses had always shared the same owner and the owner consolidated V Club into Chakran's building after the lease on the bungalow house ran out.

From time to time, I see mention of "bottle service" in this forum. Of course I have also seen customers in bars with trolleys beside them well provisioned with 75cl bottles, mixers, ice buckets, etc. Not being much a drinker myself, I have never been such a customer, so out of pure curiosity, here are some basic and naive questions for those who know much more about this. My understanding is that when a customer has bought a bottle and does not finish it in one visit, the bar will keep the bottle for him for his subsequent visit(s), by writing the customer's name or some other identifier on the bottle, and marking the level of liquid as well. 1. Is my outline understanding correct? 2. Is there a time limit for the customer's return? (Presumably, if there is, then after the time limit, the bar would either dispose of the bottle or use the remaining liquid in the bottle for their own house pour). 3. Is there any charge for the customer who returns and asks for this bottle. Does the customer get to return as many times as he likes (within time limit, if any) for free (i.e. no entry charge) if he has a bottle waiting for him on the shelf? 4. Presumably, each visit the customer is likely to order mixers. What sort of prices do the bars charge for mixers and any charge for ice, etc? (A single-drink customer would have to pay 400 -500 baht for a can of Tonic, Soda or Coca Cola. If a bottle customer asked for a similar can as mixer, is he charged at a different rate? 5. If the customer calls a boy to sit with him, and offers the boy a drink served out of the same bottle, does the bar charge nothing? (for customers who order single drinks, the bar would charge a boy drink and earn money from that; the boy also gets maybe 50 or 100 baht from the boy drink). 6. Can a boy refuse a drink out of the bottle, e.g. saying "I don't drink alcohol." What usually happens then? 7. Do mamasans help themselves freely to the bottle? Or must they first be explicitly invited by the customer to partake? (I have seen mamasans - sometimes two of them - drink considerably from bottles and I have often wondered what the understanding between customer and mamasan was, or was the mamasan helping herself liberally in order to exhaust the bottle as soon as possible, it being her job to help the bar sell more bottles/drinks?). Hoping some members here can help answer the above....

I have experienced at least one occasion when the songthaew I boarded in Jomtien heading towards Pattaya and which I intended to ride all the way to Boyztown, unexpectedly turned right into Pattaya Tai road in the direction of Third Road and Sukhumvit Road. Of course I had to alight quickly as did some other passengers. Fortunately I could walk the rest of the way to Boyztown, but the others had to catch another songthaew to continue their journey north for another 10 baht fare. Similarly, there was one occasion when I was headed to Central mall but the songthaew turned right into Pattaya Klang Road instead of continuing up Second Road. This time, thought I might walk the rest of the way to Central, until it started to rain when I had to resort to flagging down another songthaew and expend another princely sum of ten baht for a 2-minute ride to my destination. On these occasions, the first passenger must have negotiated the route with the driver, but all the subsequent passengers, myself included, simply assumed it would travel the full length of Second Road to the dolphin circus. Or maybe there was a sign on the windshield to indicate the unusual route except that tourists like me were illiterate fools.

Might this be Fan Club or Adonis Massage? Might "key money" - which appears to be an annual payment - be euphemism for keeping the powers-that-be happy?

Yes, I have noticed this too and felt scorned by these bars taking my money. Wrote a long post about it (warning: it's intellectual) in 2022: https://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog/2023/01/12/the-gogo-business-heteronormativity/

Sutthisan Winitchai's side alleys are numbered in an orderly way from Inthamara Soi 1 upwards, and every soi is well-signed. Phoenix Massage on Soi 25 is therefore very easy to find. This is Soi 25. Phoenix Massage is the shop with the yellow lightbulbs. Its front door. As @ichigo says, it's very green. I see you asked for pictures of the inside. THe above is the only photo I have. There is really nothing else worth photographing. Were you expecting a luxurious spa complete with marble, fountains and statues of Greek Gods? Its pricing should tell you it's going to be basic. Actually,it exceeded my expectations. Compare this green room with the room from Prince that @12is12 posted in the thread https://www.gayguides.com/topic/73269-bangcock-2nd-report-massage/ which costs nearly twice as much as Phoenix.

Thanks, @vinapu for the shout out. I'm sure there are some of us who appreciate the value proposition that Dragon and Koi has to offer, and @reader seems to be among them. But what is important for the long term viability of any business is whether ENOUGH people out there (not just us) appreciate its value proposition, who come to Bangkok frequent enough, and who actually visit the place. My blogpost ponders if this bar's appeal has limitations.

There's a youtube video on this raid. Not the most flattering account for gay men.

Re Prince, correct. It's not twink heaven. Also, I think the pictures of guys on their website are more historical than current.

"Pre book" doesn't mean that. It means you make a choice from among the pictures they send you at the time that you're making a booking - or from the pictures they have recently circulated on their Line advertising (if you're a subscriber). The chosen boy will be waiting for you at the shop when you arrive at the appointed time.

Reminds me of the equally ill-fated New Twilight. Loud music playing to near-empty house, freezing cold air conditioning. Nobody seemed to care. I knew it was the end.

Why is that so? Why do the boys prefer a booking made via Jey? Might this be because the boys are paid different rates, which implies different shareholders/management? Or just a transport problem for the boys?

Consider this: Men, whether straight or gay, tend to have little interest in therapeutic massage in itself. For lots of straight men, a "massage" without an offer of pussy would be pointless. If I have to hazard a guess, I'd say about 95% of "massage" establishments catering to straight men (with female staff) offer more of erotic relief than therapeutic relaxation. Ditto for gay men. A huge majority of massage shops with male staff would know that without the erotic, they'd be out of business. Of these, some would decide to serve only straight women, but I think the market for gay men is much bigger, and so if an establishment has male staff, then it can be assumed that it services gay men unless it clearly states that it only caters to straight women. The ShamelessMack map of Silom referenced by @vinapu above has many massage shops in the Silom area marked. Its twin map (of Saphan Khwai area) has several more, marked in dark red (dark red = mostly or exclusively male staff). You can do a search of this forum or within the ShamelessMack blog itself of visit reports to any of the named shops, and you should be able to discern from the visit report what kind of "programme" the shop has. I think, of the shops marked in medium red or dark red on the maps, only Prime is a non-erotic place. Prestige is likely also a virtuous establishment, though I think there was a report (was it you, @spoon or @vinapu?) who reported that exceptions can be made. @Menaughty - you may be over thinking this. I understand this is your first visit, but I am sure you'll be fine.

If a shop is discussed here in this forum, it's gay enough 🤣 . Members here are laser-focussed. We don't waste time on girl shops.

Tell that to straight men especially in conservative societies. To get pussy, they have to commit to lifelong marriage.

This map should help. https://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog/2023/12/14/map-of-pattayaland-area-december-2023/

@spoon you beat me to it 😂

I am not disputing that. But it is one thing to discuss economic realities dispassionately (however these realities are created), but quite another to gloat about the (I think imagined) imminent collapse of the West.

It isn't meaningful to compare 2024 figures with 2023 when china only reopened to travel in 2023. A better comparison would be against the last full pre-covid year, which is 2019. In the same way, Thailand speaks of the 39million visitors it received in 2019 as the measure of recovery from the pandemic. As I pointed out, if we annualise the 17 million till July 2024, we may see 34 million visitors to china in the full 2024. It is below the pre-covid figure. Perhaps I should have said "shrunk market" rather than "shrinking market" because only time will tell what 2025 brings. Will it grow or shrink further? My understanding too. In any case I have been told by a Shanghai tour guide that the majority of Chinese tourists headed to Europe are in packaged group tours. They are price sensitive and would more likely use Chinese airlines rather than European airlines (also Chinese-speaking cabin crew and Chinese meals on board). So even if outbound Chinese tourism (to Europe) grows strongly in the next couple of years - not likely given the economic doldrums in china - it won't be the European airlines benefitting.

I think the debate so far is missing the main point, albeit that the thread is about Euorpean airlines cutting back on flights to China. This statistic is key, especially if we see it from China's perspective. It is likely that 2024 will end with about 34 million foreign visitors, only 70% of the 49 million the country received in 2019. Lots of small businesses in China catering to foreign visitors must be suffering. Tourism in China is of three broad types: The very biggest, by far is domestic tourism. You go to any attraction and chances are that domestic tourists will outnumber foreigners by a few multiples. This sector currently has its own problems but it is outside the scope of our discussion, The second biggest group, I believe, would be the cross-border "tourists" from countries that adjoin China, such as Vietnam, Myanmar, Mongolia, Kazakhstan and Russia. They come in for a day and rarely go beyond the border town. Many are traders. For the purposes of this discussion (about flights), they're irrelevant. The third group are those who fly in, or maybe cross from HongKong and then travel around other cities. When we are discussing flights from Europe, we're really talking about a segment of a segment. Europeans are a portion of the third group. All the rest (from other Asian countries or America) are irrelevant to this discussion about flights from Europe. Wikipedia has stats from 2019, giving you a sense of the breakdown by country of origin. The first big table there lumps the cross-border visitors with the fly-in visitors; it even includes Hong Kong and Macau. Not helpful, though you can see how big the cross-border numbers are. It's the second table "Foreign arrivals in Beijing" which gives a better sense of the make-up of the fly-in segment of visitors. The numbers themselves refer to Beijing, but it's the proportions that interest us. What is interesting is that, excluding those from Hong Kong, the top four (USA, Japan, South Korean, Taiwan) are NOT from Europe. The top ten in 2019 were: 1. USA 629,000 2. Japan 247,000 3. South Korea 242,000 4. Taiwan 222,000 5. Germany 198,000 6. UK 153,000 7. Australia 141,000 8. Singapore 127,000 9. France 120,000 10. Canada 100,000. The total for these top ten is 2,179,000. Of these, 471,000 (22%) were from Europe. Very roughly then, the issue of discontinued flights affects only about a fifth or a quarter of fly-in tourists. The rest fly in from neighbouring countries such as Japan or across the Pacific, such as USA and Canada. The point is that even as Chinese Airlines are in a position to take nearly 100% market share of the European traffic due to the withdrawal of European Airlines, it does not amount to all that much. They'd still have to compete against Southeast Asian airlines, Japanese and Korean airlines for the much larger segments that do not come from Europe. Above all, 100% market share of a market that is 30% smaller than 2019 - and I think it is significantly more than 30% down, because the cross-border numbers are likely to be holding up, so that means the fly-in numbers must be much lower - is no cause for celebration. The minister or officials in charge of tourism in Beijing must be far more concerned about the drop in total numbers, not about the pick-up in market share in a shrinking market. It's important to see things in perspective.

Famished is not good either. Distracting. What I do is to go to a nearby 7-11 and get an ice-cream. The sugar keeps hunger at bay for a couple of hours. The ice-cream melts into liquid inside you, unlike a bun which has bulk and takes a while to digest. I think @vinapu once mentioned he did the same ice-cream trick.

Both maps have problems. Referring to the second map, I noticed: 1. Scandinavians should be shown as less hairy than other Europeans(as @Keithambrose has already pointed out. 2. China, Mongolia and Korea should be as yellow and smooth as southeast Asia. 3. Japan maybe should be light green i.e. way smoother than the map shows. Hairy Hokkaido is only if one refers to the original Ainu population who are now just a tiny percentage of the current population of Hokkaido who are no different from the rest of Japan. 4. Central Asia - from what I have seen of Uzbeks, Kazakhs and khirgiz, are no hairier than southeast Asians, Chinese and Koreans. However, these places have a significant Russian minority, so it makes the average a bit hairier. 5. Iran should be as black as north Africa and the Levant. 6. Northern India is as hairy as France and Germany (rust red), while southern India only slightly less so, maybe dirty blue-green as currently painted. Of course these are averages. In countries with considerable immigration, the variation within a country can be great.