macaroni21

I can't answer that question, but isn't @abidismaili in Pattaya at the moment? Also, this is best placed in the Gay Pattaya forum. There is an instagram account https://www.instagram.com/club_pattaya_legacy/ , maybe those who are more savvy can follow it and see dates of its latest posts?

Here's another video with a good time stamp 1990 -1991. This accords with what I remember of Pattaya in my first few visits in the first half ot the 1990s. It was already pretty urbanised and the main streets quite congested. The sex trade (mostly hetero) was easy to spot. Again, there are hardly any night scenes in this compilation, but a vibrant night life was definitely to be found.

I don't remember seeing massage shops in the 1990s. There must have been (with girls at least) but I probably wasn't paying attention. That said, I mention in my post above that I got a soapy massage from a boy in Adam & Eve, and the upstairs room was designed for massage. Soapy massages generally come with happy endings, as did mine. However, I detect in your question that you may possibly be holding an opinion that currently guy massages are widely available in Pattaya - and that's why you're asking when did it all begin. I don't quite agree with this generalisation. Except for the shops in Jomtien Complex, sexy massage by guys is not obvious anywhere else in Pattaya. Yes, you can see straight-looking boys outside a few massage shops around the South Pattaya Road corner, but the front rooms of these shops have foot massage loungers. To the average straight tourist walking past, they may seem as no different from the shops along SIlom Road in Bangkok, which also has very straight looking guys sitting out in front of their foot massage parlours. They don't scream happy endings.The shops that do screem happy endings along Second Road are those with girls out front. I don't think the gay gogo bars and open-front bars were more hidden. In the early 1990s, there was no internet information, and yet I could easily find Nautilus, Gentleman's Club and Adam & Eve (and probably a couple more that I have since forgotten) on my own just by walking the streets. Something about the frontages of these gogo bars must have signalled "gay" to me. As for girl gogo and open-front bars, when looking at the old videos, bear in mind two things: Firstly, they are almost all street scenes, and shot in the daytime. Even now, you don't see bar girls in skimpy bikinis on the streets in the day time with the rarest of exceptions. For technology reasons in those days, night scenes would have been difficult to film at night. Cameras would not be allowed inside the bars. So what you see in those old videos is probably not representative. In this video showing still pictures from the 1960 to 1990 period, there is one photo at 2 minutes 42 seconds of a girl in a bikini on a stage. This indicates that indoors, even in the decades before I made my first visit, the scene was as raunchy as it is today. My sense is that the street scene has gotten bolder over the years, but confined to just a few sex streets, such as Soi Buakow and Walking Street, with more girls in bikinis standing out front. But this is just the vaguest of impressions since I wouldn't have paid much attention, having no interest in the hetero bar scene. Actually, one can still have a family holiday in Pattaya withouth encountering much of the sex trade. Because we tend to frequent the gay sex parts of the city we may not realise there are huge parts of the urban sprawl that don't look X-rated.

The name "Gentleman's Club" rings a bell, but since I didn't make my first visit until 1990 or so, it must have been around for many years from 1985 on. My vague recollection is that it was in the same Soi as where X-boys is now. But I may be mistaken. I don't quite recall whether Boyztown was there on my first visit, but I am fairly sure it was by my second visit, probably around 1992, or at the latest by my third visit. I remember clearly that I stayed in Flipper Lodge in Central Pattaya on my first visit. For my second visit and third visits I stayed at Natural Inn and Cockpit Hotel - not sure now which place was 2nd visit and which was 3rd visit. But I can confirm that by 1993 or so, Boyztown was in full swing. My earliest memories of gay Pattaya (around 1990) do not have Boystown in them. Instead, the bars were in the Soi 2 area in North Pattaya. I have fond memories of the cavernous (aircraft hangar-like) Adam & Eve, and Nautilus bar. Adam & Eve had gogo boys whom one could take out or could provide services in their upstairs rooms. It was where I had my first soapy massage (could have been my only soapy massage) lying on a ceramic tiled plinth. Nautilus had an aquarium and that was where I saw my first "underwater show" to the soundtrack of Richard Marx's Right Here Waiting For You. Sunnee Plaza might have been developing in that period - first half of the 1990s or mid 1990s - but I might not have noticed. By the time I noticed (late 1990s or early 2000s) it had a bad reputation for underaged boys, and I continued to stay away from it. I can't put a finger on when Jomtien Complex became gay, maybe after 2000? Perhaps others can recall.

Indeed, we've discussed this before, but the funny thing is that such inertia is only in the Thai gogo and host bars. In the massage sector, they behave as any business would behave. They have a range of product offers as evidenced by the lengthy menu boards outside their shopfronts or on their Line advertising: Foot massage, Thai massage, Oil massage, Aroma oil massage, Coconut oil massage, Scrub combos. 60-minutes, 90-minutes, 120-minutes. Many Saphan Khwai places, in their Line feeds, spell out which boys are top, which are versatile. Their tip ranges also vary, some as low as 800 baht, others (GooGuy, for example) ask for 4,000 baht. More recently, we see discounts and packages (e.g. 5 sessions for xxxx baht)....

What??? How can you be a card-carrying whore-hunter if you've never been to Sodom-on-sea?

It's very hard to imagine that a bar permitted (in one way or another) to provide big-cock parades and other acts involving nudity on its main stage is prohibited from nudity in some screened-off corner, but TIT, so I don't really know. But there's a simple work-around if there is a prohibition. If I were a bar, I'd rent a satellite location a short walk away, a simple upstairs room or two. A room can be divided into 2 or 3 screened corners. When a customer orders a lap dance, he pays at the counter, and the boy takes him to that satellite location. The boy is told by the bar that he must return within, say, 10 minutes. The bar also keeps the customer's seat and drink for his return.

Thanks, @Riobard for those kind words. Lap dances inject scaling into bars' product offer - that's what started me on this suggestion. It's like this: most businesses would try to offer a range of products to suit different budgets. For example, airlines have first class, business class, premium economy, economy. and then major airlines often have a low-cost subsidiary too. Shampoo makers usually have different brands at different price points, and each brand may have different bottle sizes, again to cater to a diverse market. Less visible is that the lower end of the product ranges are used to generate volume and thus spread the fixed costs. What has struck me about gogo bars in Thailand is that they really have just one product and one price point - the off fee (500 baht?) and after that, the compensation to the boy, now averaging 2000 - 2500 baht. If the customer is not prepared to spend that amount, the customer gets next to no satisfaction from a visit. It's an all-or-nothing set-up. There are potentially plenty of customers who could be attracted with additional product offers. For example, a customer who has come from a massage with happy ending, and (being older, perhaps) does not think it worthwhile to off a boy for another full-service bed-romp. Or a customer, e.g. from a middle-income country, who is travelling in a group and sharing a room. He can't take a boy back. Lap dances can pull some spending out of these customers and provide some thrill and fun, even if not the full works. In turn, a reputation for lap dancing pulls more customers into a bar, and drink sales go up (generate volume and spread the fixed costs - rent, wait staff). It's equally important to see it from the other angle. For the boys working in bars, it's currently also a ridiculous all-or-nothing set-up. They either hit jackpot on the night they're on duty (with an off) or go home empty handed, save for a 100-baht tip or two. Lap dances allow them to earn a bit more (e.g. 400 baht for 10 minutes?), and they can serve more than one customer a night, so that there is a lower risk of a night with no income and having to go back to his lodgings with empty pockets. This makes the bar attractive for boys to work in. The bar can also attract boys to work there who are happy to give lap dances but are otherwise reluctant to be taken out i.e. boys who would exhibit and interact superficially to make money but don't do full sex. This can be a two-edged sword for the bar's reputation, but if carefully managed can still work. Sorry @Kiwi306 that I am going off topic. Personally I don't think there is any worthwhile erotic entertainment in Thai gogo bars anymore. The only one I can think of is X-boys Pattaya, but it's quite rough at the edges. Beware too, the last time I was there, the off fee was 800 baht!

I can't answer any of @abidismaili's questions with facts, but from what I have read over the years (and largely corroborated by what's said in the two videos above): It was a small fishing village up till the early 1960s. The US military presence in Vietnam and Thailand built up gradually in the late 1950s and that was about when Pattaya came to the attention of the US officers as a beach escape. Even then it was just a trickle of visitors and visitor numbers would not have been enough to support entertainment outlets. Everything changed from 1964. US forces surged into Vietnam. Where formerly the US military were predominantly regular officers (and a few thousand at most) sent to train VIetnamese and Thai militaries, now the US presence was mostly made up of young GIs, keen on drugs and sex. Numbers hit a peak of over 500,000 in 1969. Because these were conscripts often involved in brutal infantry combat, the US organised an R&R rotation. The men generally had a week's leave a year (?). As the above video says, the men had choices: Bangkok, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taipei, even Sydney. Every one of these cities developed a Vietnam-GI entertainment industry, but because these were big cities, the entertainment ghetto remained just one small part of a city, the way Patpong is just a ghetto. Pattaya was the only R&R option that was not already a city, so the GI-centric type of entertainment quickly became the town's dominant character. That said, the videos say bars (with girls, naturally) only appeared in the early or middle 1960s. It makes sense - that's when there came a critical mass of customers, the GIs by the thousands. Around 1966, the US moved into and expanded U-Tapao airbase. And thousands more US Airforce, maintenance and logistics people (predominantly male) moved into the region, not as R&R short-term visitors but based there for months or years. So that was another boost to the entertainment business. @abidismaili's first question was when massage places with happy ending a thing in Pattaya. I would guess that it came very quickly after the bars were established. Bear in mind, massage is indigneous to Thai culture, and locals too look forward to happy endings. Even if no US GIs had come to Thailand, there would still be a sexy massage massage scene, like you would find in the provincial cities where few tourists venture to. His second question was "Since when are they all over the place?". I'm not sure if "they" meant bars or massage or both, but I'd guess that the moment US GIs came in large n numbers (mid 1960s onwards), bars AND massage became the main business of Pattaya. Rather than see the sex business as arriving into an already family-friendly beach resort, it's the other away around. Pattaya first went from fishing village to a boomtown of sex, drugs, human trafficking (girls needed to work in the shops) in a matter of a few years, and then, ten years later, after the American retreat from Vietnam (1976), there began valiant attempts to make it family-friendly. They needed to do so to fill the empty rooms left behind by the Americans. Unfortunately/fortunately, by then the glorious reputation of Pattaya had been well established, and even as the GIs vanished, more and more civilians from Europe, Australia and the US continued to come to Pattaya, keeping the sex businesses alive. And growing. I can't answer your 3rd and 4th questions. What I can say however is that by 1989 or 1990 when I made my first visit to Pattaya, there were gay sex options available. They seemed well-established by then, so they must have been there for several years already. Perhaps others who made their first visits before me can say more about the pre-1989 period.

This other one is also informative:

Perhaps @abidismaili was referring to this Youtube video?

@abidismaili, it depends on which part of Bangkok. @JZenLyfe referred to 15M massage which is in Saphan Khwai area. Loads of twinks in that area quote 1000 baht for 1 hour. In the Silom area, that won't be the going rate.

Whoa... How is it that I have not heard of Super Boy?

For some businesses, it can make sense to collect a cover charge at the door. Much depends on how many "take a peek" people come by. If too many peek and leave, then they would want to discourage that. Other business which are confident that peeking leads strongly to staying would be fine with post-visit payment. That said, to make such decisions, a business has to collect data and analyse them. Most small businesses don't do that; they simply follow the market leader.

Whilst I have always pre-booked a boy before arriving, I can report that when I arrived at the shops for my appointments, most times I saw no more than 2 - 3 other boys hanging around the place (sometimes none). I have no idea whether they were available for spot booking, or they were waiting for their clients to arrive - in which case they wouldn't be available. I will have a story soon on ShamelessMack about the evening when, although I had made a prior booking, the boy was a no show. The manager was deeply apologetic but said he had two other boys available in the house. They were presented to me in person; they looked almost like clones of each other, so for all practical purposes, I had no real choice re physique or looks. The only choice I had was black shirt or white shirt. And then the manager said that black shirt (or was it white shirt?) was actually waiting for his prebooked customer to arrive in an hour's time. In that case, this clone might do a rush job if I took him, and so I was left with just the other clone. However, these boys have lodgings in the general vicinity, and my guess (never tested) is that the manager will be able to show you photos from his phone or tablet and you can choose from there. He will then have to make calls to see if the boy can come over, and how soon. You may need to wait up to half an hour, I reckon, for them to freshen up and arrive.

I've thought about it but didn't do it. Hated the idea of walking in the sun and alongside horrible traffic. That was also when there were messy roadworks and motosai often drove onto the kerb -- and there were long stretches with no pedestrian kerbs. Like @Londoner , I have done a long Jomtien beach walk though, from Jomtien Complex all the way south till it joined Sukhumvit Road. From Google Maps, it's about 5 km. It was nice in late afternoon. I'd do it again.

I agree. Our tastes and expectations differ greatly. For example, @sydneyboy1 was disappointed with the numbertag guys he saw in The One, describing them as "overweight, heavily tattooed". I didn't think they were noticeably different from what they were in Tawan in the time before the sudden closure, nor what they were for years before that (except getting older and losing some hair). Possibly the guys working the bar the night I went were a different lot from the boys working the bar the night sydneyboy1 went, but not likely. More likely is that, to my eyes, they were hunk enough for me (in fact, many of them too heavy for me -** don't crush me, please!! **) whereas sydneyboy1 might have been looking for a different standard?

Ah, @vinapu beat me to it. Yes, it was a good crowd when I visited. I did wonder though whether it was a fluke, something to do with Pride Month.... But I guess only time will tell.

Sorry for going off topic, but just so I am not misleading anyone, there remains a little bit of variability in Japanese pricing. While not within my personal experience, I have heard of or come across shops that have different tiers of pricing depending on whether the client wants to top the boy, engage in S&M, etc (including one place that offers a scat option). So, when I said "all-inclusive pricing", you still need to be careful which tier of pricing you're signing up for. The best way to avoid misunderstanding is to be clear when emailing the shop to say what exactly you want to do and ask if the shortlisted boys do those things. No need to be bashful in your email. Lay it all out. Then ask, for such-and-such, what is the price? However, remember to use the simplest of English sentences. Almost always, they will use Google Translate to see what you're saying and Google Translate can't be relied upon to handle multi-part complicated sentences, abbreviations or idioms.

I had a similar experience in Beijing. I had an extra suitcase heavy with product manuals. No anger, but the bellboy, gently and in clear enough English, said "no, thank you, sir. This is my job. I do it with pride. This is my satisfaction." I think management taught all employees to say that. It made me feel like I would be demeaning him to insist on giving a tip. And like @Keithambrose said, I thought it was beyond absurd when I saw the payment screen of a take-out doughnut shop in New York state give me the option of 15, 20 or 25% tip. I had to look high and low around the screen to find the tiny "no tip" option.

Good point. Likewise, no tipping in Japan or Korea. The massage shops in Japan and Korea quote all-inclusive rates. No extra compensation expected.

Exactly my observation too, as I mentioned in the thread Bangkok Trip Report June 2024, page 3. The Chinese girls seldom take the boys, the heterosexual Chinese boys are only in the bars in order to please their girlfriends and anyway wouldn't know what to do with a gogo boy's dick even if they had one in the hand, and as for the gay Chinese men - they see the gogo boys as poor value compared to the massage boys. Maybe they all remember (or have heard from one another) that his chap is a poor tipper?

I am looking forward to those two trip reports too.

My reading of the situation is similar to @vinapu's. There is a minority of Chinese tourists - as often heterosexual couples or all-girl groups, as gay men - who throw money around ostentatiously. My reading is that they are part of the new nouveau-riche class in their society. They are first generation of Chinese to have wealth, and there's an urge to show off. They will not admit it, but the thinking goes like this: what's the point of being rich unless I can show everyone else that I am rich? Less obvious to us, because they don't make a spectacle of themselves, are the gay Chinese tourists who have scrimped and saved to travel abroad. They are more numerous but far more low-key. These are the ones @vinapu may be referring to as the customers of the massage parlours in Silom Soi 6. They focus their spending on the sex services (thus, gay) rather than the showy bars, whereas those who need to show off splurge in highly visible ways in the bars but don't much buy sex. The latter is an activity behind closed doors, so not easy to let others see and envy. I'm not sure that is happening. I think it is the Western tourist that is driving up prices in the Silom-Surawong area, and the rich local Thais in places like Jey Spa or Aurora. Meanwhile there's a price war breaking out among the Saphan Khwai shops. You should see the number of special discounts and promotions being offered on their Line advertising. First, the shops discount the prices of the rooms, but lately, I noticed a few boys discounting their expected tips. GooGuy started off advertising boys expecting 3,000 to 4,000 baht in tips. Lately those boys have disappeared, and now the current crop expect tips in the range of 1,500 baht for one hour.

@davide3311- were you referring to the two bars, Bali Joe and Mixwell, in Seminyak? If so, I agree with your observation though I didn't think it was bizarre. Indeed, the atmosphere was more of a local corner bar where people were friendly enough with no outwardly gay behaviour. I think partly it was because the crowd was more heterosexual than gay, on the nights I was there at least. There were a lot of mixed-gender couples, and the outnumbered gay couples instinctively became more reserved in such an environment. (This is what happens when gay men make their gay subculture "hip" and "trendy". The heterosexuals want to come! ) Partly too - among the Indonesians in the bars - it may have to do with Indonesian culture which places much weight on public decorum. I also observed that some of the Indonesians present were moneyboys, possibly straight, and it would be unnatural for them to act "gay".