Empty buildings in the Jomtien Complex

[Londoner]

I am intrigued by the empty buildings in the JC, some of which seem to have been slowly deteriorating for many years, although the ground floors have flourishing business premises. Since Covid, new businesses- bars and restaurants- have sprung-up near Dick's and have made the area more vibrant while a couple of these huge buildings remain ugly and unused. With all  the new buildings in the area, why so?

Then there's the newly decorated and renovated (post-Covid) three story block- seemingly apartments- directly opposite The Agate-  which remains, as I can discern, empty. Any explanations as to why this is?

[emiel1981]

Apparently new businesses are coming to the complex... This was posted in a Facebook group. The sign reads "What is going to happen here?" and is attached to the building next to Candy Bar. 

[floridarob]

11 hours ago, emiel1981 said:

Apparently new businesses are coming to the complex... This was posted in a Facebook group. The sign reads "What is going to happen here?" and is attached to the building next to Candy Bar. 

That has @Olddaddy written all over it.... he's mysterious like that, not that he's renting it, he's just put the banner up.

[Olddaddy]

20 hours ago, emiel1981 said:

Apparently new businesses are coming to the complex... This was posted in a Facebook group. The sign reads "What is going to happen here?" and is attached to the building next to Candy Bar. 

Just another boring beer bar 

As one member used to say ..Farang sit, farang drink !

What happened to that poster I don't think I see him on here anymore ?

 

[iendo]

4 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

Just another boring beer bar 

It is all bars together what make JC. I've only been once since here in Pattaya but I was pleasantly surprised. I'd be happy with a simple host bar. JC is slowly filling up and I've seen enough cuties and some board members.

[Travellerdave]

47 minutes ago, iendo said:

It is all bars together what make JC. I've only been once since here in Pattaya but I was pleasantly surprised. I'd be happy with a simple host bar. JC is slowly filling up and I've seen enough cuties and some board members.

I believe that the Complex Hotels don’t have much availability in the run up to Christmas. I’ve got thoughts about being there during late January . Have any Cambodian boys returned ?

[iendo]

1 hour ago, Travellerdave said:

Have any Cambodian boys returned ?

I have not spoken to any of the boys. But I can tell you that it felt like old times to me. For example, M bar had a lot of boys inside and outside. I'm sure others might know where they were from. But again, I was impressed by how lively JC was and had a great time talking with new and old friends. 

A little over two years ago I left Thailand for the last time and it was straight up boring in all three hot spots. With my medical tasks almost completed I'll be discovering all that Pattaya has to offer real soon, and I'm pretty optimistic. 

[mauRICE]

6 minutes ago, iendo said:

A little over two years ago I left Thailand for the last time and it was straight up boring in all three hot spots.

And you're giving it another Cher farewell tour, so to speak? 🤔😏

[Marc308]

10 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

Just another boring beer bar 

As one member used to say ..Farang sit, farang drink !

What happened to that poster I don't think I see him on here anymore ?

 

Why isn't there more innovation/experimentation/imagination used in this "boring beer bar" format? I know there has been some (e.g. bingo, etc) but nothing that truly differentiates from a "sit, drink!" format. You know when Jim/Gordon came to town and founded BBB the Pattaya world changed to an exciting, more-or-less affordable format from some sort of back-alley environment. Surely someone could make a change again and shake up things a bit, no?

[Olddaddy]

3 hours ago, iendo said:

 

A little over two years ago I left Thailand for the last time and it was straight up boring in all three hot spots. With my medical tasks almost completed

You haven't been to Thailand for over 2 years?

Nothing's changed 

[Olddaddy]

20 minutes ago, Marc308 said:

Why isn't there more innovation/experimentation/imagination used in this "boring beer bar" format? I know there has been some (e.g. bingo, etc) but nothing that truly differentiates from a "sit, drink!" format. You know when Jim/Gordon came to town and founded BBB the Pattaya world changed to an exciting, more-or-less affordable format from some sort of back-alley environment. Surely someone could make a change again and shake up things a bit, no?

Need a entrepreneur 

It's a different generation of farangs now ,these ones will soon get bored without their phones to keep them company 

They are not going to sit in a beer bar and stare at the wall....not without their phone anyway 🤭

And the next Gen of farangs will be unsociable,they want a quick fix 

[Olddaddy]

I don't even like those bars 

When I was there in September I nearly had a punch up in that bar with the show next to the Venue 

It was a Sunday night in sitting on a stool with was smaller than my butt against the wall 

A German middle aged farang walks in and stands centre metres away from me with his back to me 

I tap him on the shoulder the ignorant prick 

I said hey you can't see me ?

Not many people miss me but you can't even see me ,!

He turns around and stares at me meanly looking down in me 

I said "do you want to fuck me ..fuck me hard with that German cock ?

He looks shocked 

"Go on fuck me sweetheart with that German sausage !

He then quickly runs out 

 

[floridarob]

17 minutes ago, Olddaddy said:

Need a entrepreneur 

We're all waiting to see what one of you are  going to do 🤷‍♂️

[iendo]

5 hours ago, mauRICE said:

And you're giving it another Cher farewell tour, so to speak? 🤔😏

Just keeping an open kind and glad I did 😁 

2 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

You haven't been to Thailand for over 2 years?

Nothing's changed 

I can’t speak for you, but for me a lot has changed. You remind me of the people who were in denial about the decline of Sunnee. Here it is the opposite. The place is growing, and the bars are finding their niche. Each spot has its own thing going on now, and the area is shifting from pure randomness to something more settled and defined.

However, I do wish the whole ‘show’ elements that attract straight tourists were a bit more separated from the sleazier side, the way we used to have Sunnee and Boystown as distinct areas. If I had to name one negative point, that would be it.

[colmx]

6 hours ago, iendo said:

, M bar had a lot of boys inside and outside. I'm sure others might know where they were from

M Bar doesn't hire Cambodians afaik. It's a mix of Thai and Laos 

Speaking of Entrepreneurs, Charlie of M bar, Sunee Bar, Gus Bar etc all. Is quite an entrepreneur and has hit on a good formula with most of his bars

[PeterRS]

5 hours ago, floridarob said:

We're all waiting to see what one of you are  going to do 🤷‍♂️

Waiting for @Olddaddy to open his 'different' bar, no doubt.

6 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

Need a entrepreneur 

How often did we hear that in the old days of Soi Twight!

[vinapu]

11 hours ago, PeterRS said:

Waiting for @Olddaddy to open his 'different' bar, no doubt.

How often did we hear that in the old days of Soi Twight!

all I remember hearing from Soi Twilight is ' Look at THAT guy "

[BjornAgain]

19 hours ago, Olddaddy said:

I don't even like those bars 

When I was there in September I nearly had a punch up in that bar with the show next to the Venue...

 

Never knew you were one of Jimmy Sharman's boxers. 

[macaroni21]

16 hours ago, iendo said:

However, I do wish the whole ‘show’ elements that attract straight tourists were a bit more separated from the sleazier side, the way we used to have Sunnee and Boystown as distinct areas. If I had to name one negative point, that would be it.

At last, somebody agrees 🤩 I have been saying the same for years, From a business perspective, bars should choose between being a showbar or an offing bar. The conflict between the two business models is such that any bar that tries to do both will have to walk a very narrow line with a high risk of failure.

A showbar needs volume because putting up shows is costly. The nature of the shows also tends to feature drag queens who bring no erotic value to gay men (with only rare exceptions). They attract straight audiences, and the bars get addicted to the straight audiences because they need volume (it gets into a vicious cycle). It doesn't take long to drive away gay customers who are the backbone of any offing business model. Show bars also need floor area because they need to accommodate a surge crowd at show time (how else to monetise the hoped-for volume?), backstage space, maybe high ceilings too. Rent costs become significant as a result, yet outside of showtime, you're paying rent for under-utilised space.

Banana bar is one such bar teetering on the edge. It succeeds as a showbar but I wonder how many offs the boys there get... and if they don't get enough offs, why work there any more?

An offing bar doesn't need a show. It just needs a small, intimate space (e.g. the size of Thantawan bar) with a small stage in a corner. It needs a good slate  of boys carefully selected to suit the tastes of whatever customer/market segment the bar is aiming for, from twink to twunk to chunk to hunk. I would recommend that boys go up to the stage one at a time for a 5-minute sensual striptease act (without going "all the way") -- so that customers can see what the physique is like in order to decide on an off. Without a show, there is no need to cater for any surge crowd, so a small bar will do, keeping rent low. There is no need to hire waiters or staff associated with show production. The business focus of such a bar is to get the boys off'd.

The above (a pure offing bar) is actually a proven model. Toy Boys operates something similar except that they still have boys standing on stage bored to death. And clearly Toy Boys has staying power.

The latest post on ShamelesssMack describes a pure offing bar in Tokyo, King of College. It is a successfull, long-running business. It doesn't even have a strip show.

Many of the Sunnee bars were like Toy Boys too, with a primary focus on boys on offer. When they had dancing, my best memories were the bars where the boys moved around the room, dancing right at your table (or on it) thereby creating a personalised experience for the customer. Sunnee bars' demise was not because the model didn't work, it was because their selection of boys skewed strongly to the tasts of a particular generation of western customers and didn't evolve with demographic changes. When that generation of western retirees began dying off, the bars failed to tap into the huge growth in Asian customers in Thailand's tourism profile (which would have necessitated a revamp of the type of boys that bars had). Granted, it's a lot more complicated than that in that Asian gay males have been staying mainly in Bangkok and are much less interested in going to Pattaya. So it is a chicken-and-egg question too.

But even this tells us something else - the utter lack of any marketing. Asian gay males will go to Pattaya if businesses would only advertise. But of course, they also need to understand carefully what type of boys Asian customers like and ensure the bar has the desired type. 

Look at Bangkok's massage parlours, from low end to high end. They're in rude health! They advertise furiously. If only the bars would learn from what they're doing.

I have also previously said that an offing bar can add to its sales revenue (and the boys' earnings) by offering private dances in a cubicle: Ten minutes of stripping all the way, gyrating and inviting groping for a reasonable fee, say 500 - 600 baht. This is akin to the sort of personalised fun experience that the best Sunnee bars offered. Through private dancers, boys can earn extra income in addition to being off'd. Customers can "buy" 2 or 3 private dancers to check out 2 or 3 boys before deciding which one to off. Right now, the boys' earning model is more or less an "all or nothing" game. They're either off'd and earn big money, or they earn next to nothing during the evening. Forum members here on gayguides may say that the boys also earn drink tips or "you look handsome" tips, but boys can't earn enough from such tips alone. Furthermore, always bear in mind that fact the customer profile is mainly Asian. Look carefully and the truth is that most Asian customers don't tip as liberally. An Asian customer sees far less value in calling a boy down for a drink because it is unlikely that the boy can speak Chinese, Korean or Japanese. It's a rule of thumb: customers need to see value before they spend, and a private dance is one way of offering value.

It's a mystery to me why it is so rare for bars to think about the value proposition for the customer. They do more of the same unthinkingly, without asking themselves how to ensure that customers see value in patronising my bar. More tricky perhaps, they don't know how to analyse value conflicts. What is value to one type of customer (the straight couple that want either a drag show or a gawk show) is disvalue to the gay customer who is prepared to off a boy (but is put off by the heterosexual vibe and the very public exposure he has to endure in a bar with gawking customers). 

 

 

 

[dellboy]

very interesting second last paragraph !!

[Marc308]

Yes I agree it is a useful discussion, thanks Mac. You are right, the owners as a rule have no sense about what attracts certain sub-populations so they try everything (or is it nothing other than "lust sells!"?) And you are right, the contrast of marketing tactics between the bars and the (Bangkok) massage houses is truly amazing: The latter provides photos, stats, availability via Line every day! I don't imagine it costs them much to do so since the marketing is online. 

My prediction is that either the "gay scene" is going to have to wise up and run things using modern segmentation marketing and pricing techniques (via smartphone), OR these fallbacks to the 1980's era will continue to fade away as the old-style farang customer (us) fades further and further into the past. 

[vinapu]

10 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

 

Banana bar is one such bar teetering on the edge. It succeeds as a showbar but I wonder how many offs the boys there get... and if they don't get enough offs, why work there any more?

 

I don't know about the others but I offed quite a few very decent guys from Banana bar

[vinapu]

10 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

 

I have also previously said that an offing bar can add to its sales revenue (and the boys' earnings) by offering private dances in a cubicle: Ten minutes of stripping all the way, gyrating and inviting groping for a reasonable fee, say 500 - 600 baht. This is akin to the sort of personalised fun experience that the best Sunnee bars offered. Through private dancers, boys can earn extra income in addition to being off'd. Customers can "buy" 2 or 3 private dancers to check out 2 or 3 boys before deciding which one to off.

while I like idrea of private dances I hope no bar will  follow this pricing . 2 or 3 dances at 500-600 as suggested amounts to 1000-1800 baht for 20-30 minutes of semi or 3/4 fun. It doesn't compare well with 1500-2500 ST tip IMNSHO 

[Keithambrose]

1 minute ago, vinapu said:

while I like idrea of private dances I hope no bar will  follow this pricing . 2 or 3 dances at 500-600 as suggested amounts to 1000-1800 baht for 20-30 minutes of semi or 3/4 fun. It doesn't compare well with 1500-2500 ST tip IMNSHO 

I suspect  brown envelopes  won't cover private dances, etc. In the old days, at Golden Cock, Nature Boys, and others, as soon as you went in, the boys would whip out their cocks for inspection,  and immediate use! That was very popular, and I assume that it was clamped down on?

[PeterRS]

13 hours ago, macaroni21 said:

I have also previously said that an offing bar can add to its sales revenue (and the boys' earnings) by offering private dances in a cubicle: Ten minutes of stripping all the way, gyrating and inviting groping for a reasonable fee, say 500 - 600 baht. This is akin to the sort of personalised fun experience that the best Sunnee bars offered. Through private dancers, boys can earn extra income in addition to being off'd. Customers can "buy" 2 or 3 private dancers to check out 2 or 3 boys before deciding which one to off. Right now, the boys' earning model is more or less an "all or nothing" game. They're either off'd and earn big money, or they earn next to nothing during the evening.

FIrst I agree wholeheartedly about the King of College operating model in Tokyo, although like @macaroni21 the timing is too late for me now. And getting back to one's hotel afterwards unless it is within walking distance of Shinjuku ni-chome means a very expensive taxi.

Second, I can recall only too well @macaroni21's bar model first introduced in these forums many years ago under his earlier nick. The dividing up of a bar into several sections semed such an ideal development and I am sure it would have taken off with the older westerner crowd of those days. @Keithambrose doubts if brown envelopes would be sufficient to cover a naked section nowadays. He may well be right but I'm not so sure. As long as there is no actual sexual activity underway, I suspect it could be worth trying. The entrance fee to that part of the bar could be increased a little more to cover a larger brown envelope.

There is always an assumption - one I have also put forward years ago - that by concentrating on the older westerner market, Thai bar owners have shot themselves in the foot by failing to attract through advertising or other means the newer younger Asian market. Yet going back to King of College and the basic Japanese system in what is a plethora of host bars all over that country, I have occasionally wondered if I and others are in fact correct: is the Asian market really going to be attracted by Thai bars where the primary purpose is to off guys for sex? Some certainly. I see South East Asians as a very obvious market. Apart from the fact that they are all close by, most have no issue with enjoying sex with the Thais, Cambodians, Lao, Vietnamese and Myanmar boys who people most of Bangkok's bars. 

With the larger markets of Japanese and South Koreans, I am not quite so sure. Generally speaking, I think the cultures of those countries make it more difficult for gay men openly to accept sex with, say, South East Asian guys. This is not a racist issue so much as a cultural one. Of course it is not a universal fact, but I think as a generality it is true. It's why Japanese gay friends who visit Bangkok will happily visit a sauna, go to a massage spa, see a show in a bar and then disappear off to a disco. For many, offing is not really their thing.

A section of bars where the boys are naked could, in my view, be extremely attractve to them. I am certain at the very least it would encourage them to drink more(!)