Kevin Spacey cleared of all charges

[stevenkesslar]

6 hours ago, PeterRS said:

In that case, all media and the Thai authorities have a great deal to answer for.

 

9 hours ago, forky123 said:

I wonder how 50+ year old men paying 18 year olds for sex in Thailand would be treated by social media? 

I had never heard of that case, @PeterRS.  But it took me about 10 seconds on Google to figure out who you were talking about, and what he was accused of.  I agree with your characterization.  There were a lot of stories at the beginning about an arrest and allegations.  Fewer about when and why he was cleared.  But there were some stories afterward, including in The Guardian.  There is a pattern here, I think.  It was one allegation.  Nothing I read sounded like he portrayed himself as a victim, or blamed anybody.  He did cancel events, gracefully stating that he did not want allegations against his person to cloud anything.  The main sense I got is what you communicated.  He was intent on clearing his name.  And he did.  There were statements about how the investigation helped surface a child sex ring.  Whether that was true, or simply a way to defend what the cops did, I have no way of knowing.

What's interesting about it to me is that it is not particularly difficult to figure out the rules as they apply to the media and the police.  Or the laws around prostitution, for that matter.  The more I read about Spacey, the more he seems like one of the world's leading poster children for how to do it wrong.  

Here's another recent example that rubs me completely wrong:

Kevin Spacey appears in court and blames publicist for sexual misconduct apology

Quote

He also said he “literally didn’t know how to respond” to Rapp’s allegations, but his publicist insisted, “they’re going to call you a victim-blamer.” Spacey also admitted regret about his statement, and claimed it was to “avoid a crisis that was going to get worse.” The actor previously apologised and said, “sorry for the feelings [Rapp] describes having carried with him all these years”.

Spacey also addressed various “stories” about his personal life and revealed he now “lives as a gay man”. He also said: “If I did behave then as he describes, I owe him the sincerest apology for what would have been deeply inappropriate drunken behavior.”

Quote

“This story has encouraged me to address other things about my life. I know that there are other stories out there about me and that some have been fueled by the fact that I have been so protective of my privacy,” he told the court.

I read that as a big step backward.  The problem isn't that I might have done something wrong.  The problem is that I apologized, thanks to my stupid publicist. 

For some strange reason, there are something like 30 men, many with names attached and some of them underaged at the time, who accused him.  Yet in his narrative, what comes through is that Spacey is always and only a victim.  When he uses words like "privacy," it is like in the context above.  Somehow, vaguely, this is just about me being a normal Gay man who wants my privacy.  He really has no explanation for why so many Gay men seem to feel that he really did something wrong.  I hyperlinked to an article about GLAAD saying Spacey is trying to deflect from his problems by making this about principles of LGBTQ liberation.  I agree with GLAAD.  

We know the most prominent Gay actor in Mexico invoked privacy and discrimination to explain why he only came out by being outed.  By all appearances, the world believes him.  TZP is in the middle of his worst nightmare right now, for the same reason.  But at the same time, it's a nice problem to have.  When he made The Kissing Booth, which was quite successful, nobody particularly cared to figure out whether he was Gay.  Now that he played a Bisexual man in a global blockbuster, all of a sudden people all over the world care.  I feel bad for Taylor.  But I also feel very happy for him and his husband.  As with Polo Marin, I think it is going to end well.  These are two very good examples of where we are at in 2023 regarding positive discussions about privacy.  And whether or not it is possible to be honest about being Gay without ruining your career.  I'll start a thread on that, because I think it's a very good discussion the world is having, and needs to have.  The media does need an update, I think, in terms of how NOT to create an environment where Gay men have to be afraid of coming out.

Spacey has nothing to do with that.  The only time privacy became important to his public life is after there was a shit storm of allegations regarding predatory behavior.  

There are some other very clear examples of things that celebrities shouldn't do, that most can figure out.  Hugh Grant and George Michaels are two examples, one Gay and one Straight, that demonstrate why celebrities, in particular, probably don't want to be in a position where they are soliciting sex in public.  There's a solution.  I have or have had several friends who worked for escort agencies decades ago.  I was shocked when I heard a few of the names of celebrities they had sex with.  There's a lot of typical names that everybody knows, I think.  There are other ones that, as far as I can tell, nobody knows.  I'm guessing some of these guys, who are big celebrities married to women, are or were Bi-curious.  They may have just wanted to experiment when they were young.  But somehow they were able to figure out how to climb the heights of Hollywood and become beloved actors, without the stigma of being Kevin Spacey.  Good for them.  They deserved, and got, their privacy.

There are a few countries I traveled to as an escort where I was a little worried about whether I might end up in jail there.  Thailand was not one of them.  So to answer the question about how social media would deal with an adult man having sex with an 18 year old male prostitute, it happens all the time.  If anything, Thailand was easy. Because there are known bars and resorts and spas you can go to, in privacy, to do your thing.  Or to hire other local escorts to take home for the evening.  The clients I went there with were not celebrities.  We could go out to a bar, hire other escorts, and take them home.  Once you become a celebrity, the rules change immediately.  My impression is most celebrities understand that.  

The person Kevin Spacey actually reminds me of is Donald Trump.  Deny everything.  Don't give an inch.  Play the victim.  Don't apologize to all these people who for some reason feel like victims.  And if you do apologize to them, apologize for apologizing. 

It is not a good look.  And, like Trump, it leads us backward.  Not forward.

[forky123]

Not going through that line by line.

Blaming KS because he doesn't know how to find his way through the minefield that is both media and social media is weird. There is a huge difference between KS and DT. DT has been found to be a rapist by a jury. At the moment, and there's every chance of this changing if what you say is true, KS has not been found to have done anything wrong. You say there are 30 names, then where are these people? If what KS did was so heinous and illegal then where are they? 

You say people 50+ should have no fear of social media. It's less than 5 years since Vernon Unsworth was called a pedophile by Elon Musk and was ravaged by social media. His crime? Marrying someone younger than himself in Thailand. His wife is 40.

It's time people stopped using media and social media as evidence of guilt or innocence. We have a legal system for a reason and until KS is found by a court to have done something wrong he is innocent till proven guilty like the rest of us. If he is guilty of something, prove it in a court of law.

[stevenkesslar]

1 hour ago, forky123 said:

At the moment, and there's every chance of this changing if what you say is true, KS has not been found to have done anything wrong. You say there are 30 names, then where are these people? If what KS did was so heinous and illegal then where are they? 

Actually, he was found to have done something wrong.  I agree with the idea that if we're going to judge Spacey, we ought to have a reason.  So I spent a few more hours going through this.  Some of this refreshed my memory.  I was not aware of the trials, and I did not follow them.  I remember when this first all came out I followed it closely enough to conclude that Spacey sure sounded like a serial predator.

Kevin Spacey must pay over $30 million to "House Of Cards" makers, judge rules

Quote

A judge on Thursday ruled that Kevin Spacey and his production companies must pay the makers of "House of Cards" nearly $31 million because of losses brought on by his 2017 firing for the sexual harassment of crew members.

[Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Mel Red] Recana wrote that Spacey and his attorneys "fail to demonstrate that this is even a close case" ...

So no individual victim who alleged Spacey groped or sexually assaulted him succeeded in court.  As far as I can tell, there were two jury verdicts.  One in New York on the initial allegation by Rapp.  And the London verdict that was described by Spacey's lawyers as people who just wanted to pile on for the money.  A third allegation of groping the son of a prominent local newscaster in Nantucket in a bar was dropped.

As that quote indicates, the basis of the LA judgement had to do with Spacey being fired for ongoing sexual harassment of the film's crew.  So it does sound like they were able to prove there was a "there" there.  

As far as why the 30 or so allegations did not result in 30 or so convictions, here's something to keep in mind:

Why are we so bad at prosecuting sexual assault?

Less than 1% of sexual assaults lead a conviction. Here’s what you can do to fix that.

I agree that just because 30 or so people accuse you of something, it doesn't make it true.  That said, my own standard is that Weinstein, Cosby, Trump, Clinton, and Spacey are also not innocent simply because a jury could not find them guilty.  Of the three, Weinstein, Cosby, and Trump actually have been found guilty relating to specific incidents  of harassment and/or rape.  I'm not a lawyer, but Spacey's $30 million judgment seems to fall in a different, but related, category.  The closest Clinton got to a conviction was making an $850,000 settlement with Paula Jones, based on allegations about oral sex and groping similar to the allegations about Spacey.  

Again, I'm not a lawyer.  But it's easy for me to see why these individual allegations would be hard to prove.  Mostly because they were a long time ago.  And I am pretty sure they were never reported at the time.  If I understand correctly, the Nantucket case fell apart because the alleged victim refused to testify about some text messages his mother, a prominent local newscaster, said she deleted from the phone before she gave it to the police. The texts related to her son's "frat boy activities," the mother said.  So Spacey sounds like he had good lawyers.  Because I think the tried and true method to defend yourself is to discredit the victim.  This is why I believe Spacey is doing exactly what Trump, or Clinton, did.  Don't give an inch.  Deny everything.  Blame the victim.

I'm not saying that makes Spacey guilty.  But it doesn't make him innocent, either. 

The House of Cards allegations were more recent, and apparently easier to prove

Quote

Kevin Spacey made the set of Netflix's "House of Cards" into a "toxic" work environment through a pattern of sexual harassment, eight people who currently work on the show or worked on it in the past tell CNN. One former employee told CNN that Spacey sexually assaulted him.

I think the legal part is finally over.  So now what we're left with is social media or, more broadly, public opinion.  I recoil from the idea that we should just forget about  all the "toxic" allegations, proven and unproven, and assume  30 or so alleged victims just made up a bunch of shit.

That said, that is what "Frank" would like us to do.

I looked around to see if, at any point, Spacey offered any explanation for why so many men happened to think there was a consistent pattern over the course of decades of predatory behavior.   

There is nothing I could find in his voice that addresses the allegations, except this:

Kevin Spacey Posts Video as Frank Underwood to Seemingly Confront Sexual Assault Claims

"You wouldn't rush to judgement without facts, would you? Did you?" Spacey asks in a video posted to his social media accounts.

 

I scanned some of the comments.  The one that by far got the most likes was this one, with almost 9000 likes and 200 comments:

Quote

If he is innocent, this is brilliant.

If he is guilty, this is disturbing.

Not surprisingly, the 200 comments on that comment were all over the map.  This comment which I strongly agree with, was liked by 213 people:

Quote

I really don't think he could be innocent with a video like this.  If he was innocent I think he would do a down-to-earth video where he acts like himself (not Frank Underwood) and just sits down in normal clothes with a normal camera and no props and music and just explains to us that he hasn't done anything wrong. The fact that he went through so much staging seems suspicious to me. This is serious, not a drama production. During different times of my life where I was innocent but people have thought I did something wrong, I was very serious and would never think of staging a whole production with a Christmas costume in character, this is just bizarre to me.

I think an example of that is Al Franken, who I mentioned above.  He was respectful to the women making allegations, and stated the Ethics Committee needed to look into the facts.  He also could have gotten into character and tried to explain it, or lampoon the alleged victims.  Mostly, he's just tried to be the nice guy we thought we knew.  And it seems to be working better.  He hosted The Daily Show for a week before the strike.  The audience loved him.  Again.

It was presumed at the time that Spacey's video above was in part an audition for getting his job as Frank back.  If so, it didn't work.  I'm not surprised.

I understand Spacey's legal strategy boxed him in.  If he was being sued by alleged victims, he can't really explain his behavior to us.  His lawyers no doubt have been telling him to keep his mouth shut, for years.  Even retracting his apology to an alleged victim, which I think looked awful, arguably served a legal purpose.  Being sorry suggested he might have done something wrong.  I get all that.

This is why I want Spacey to go away.  What I'm sure he feels he had to do legally precludes anything in the ballpark of understanding, apology, reconciliation, or rehabilitation.  To me, it does mean he has to be just like Trump.  I was right.  I was wronged.  These people are liars.  Why would you believe them?  Believe me. 

It would be an embarrassment for the LGBTQ community to get behind Spacey in the way MAGA gets behind Trump.

 

 

[forky123]

I don't expect anyone to "get behind" KS. As far as I've seen he's simply being left alone. If he indeed committed crimes then he should be prosecuted and I mean criminally, not just sued. He sounds like a pretty horrible person who uses his fame to get what he wants. As for the 30 people, if they don't come forward then nothing will happen. Masterson, Weinstein, Epstein, R Kelly, Harris all show that celebrities can be held to account under criminal law no matter who their lawyers are. Given that civil cases are decided on the balance of probabilities rather than reasonable doubt, the evidence must be extremely weak if no one is willing to sue Spacey.

[stevenkesslar]

18 hours ago, forky123 said:

I don't expect anyone to "get behind" KS. As far as I've seen he's simply being left alone. If he indeed committed crimes then he should be prosecuted and I mean criminally, not just sued. He sounds like a pretty horrible person who uses his fame to get what he wants. As for the 30 people, if they don't come forward then nothing will happen. Masterson, Weinstein, Epstein, R Kelly, Harris all show that celebrities can be held to account under criminal law no matter who their lawyers are. Given that civil cases are decided on the balance of probabilities rather than reasonable doubt, the evidence must be extremely weak if no one is willing to sue Spacey.

We agree.  Nicely, and succinctly, stated.

I'll add some thoughts.  Of course. 😉

I reread that list of 30 men above.  We don't know whether the main point for most of them was legal action, including wanting Spacey jailed.  Even if they had wanted that, they might have felt it would involve time, money, and reopening old wounds.  And that they were the types of cases that have been hard to prove in the past.  And still are.

There is at least one allegation that involved "attempted rape," made by someone who is anonymous.  Most of the allegations relate to "unwanted sexual advances" or groping.  By guys who were,  in at least some cases, being casual with him, or drinking with him, or possibly flirting - at least in his eyes, perhaps.  There is a difference between being a gross man, and being a criminal.  I think that factors in.  One big lesson to Gay celebrities is "Don't be gross."

That may sound silly.  But it was THE takeaway from the Franken affair for every politician in America.  I remember reading some article I found helpful, about some woman who wanted a photo with Franken at the state fair and felt he touched her inappropriately.  Like his hand was on her butt.  Some other Minnesota politician was quoted as saying something like this, going from memory:  "Whenever a constituent asks me to take a photo, I am always very verbal and very explicit.  I ask, May I put my arm around your shoulder for the purpose of taking a photo?"  Joe Biden obviously didn't learn that lesson growing up.  But even he has learned.  😉

I Googled "Gay celebrities accused of rape or sexual assault."  Happily, I got nothing Gay.  I did get lots of lists of male celebrities who have been accused.  Here's one.  As far as I know, Spacey is the only one who is Gay.  29 of the 30 are Straight.  Just to show how making assumptions can be wrong, I thought one of them sure looked Gay.  Nope.  As soon as I Googled it, he's Straight.

Here's my point.  From rereading some of the articles from five years ago, it is clear that one reason Spacey caused a huge LGBTQ backlash is that he chose not to come out before.  Which is his choice, of course.  But when he did come out, it at least appeared to be that "I'm Gay" was somehow meant to explain or generate sympathy in the context of a whole bunch of allegations.  All of which went to the core of every trope used against Gay men forever.  We are pedophiles.  We groom children.  We can't control ourselves.  

In retrospect, it's perhaps a good thing he didn't come out.  Because no prominent out Gay celebrity in the US, to my knowledge, has actually been accused of any of these things.  If anything, it should help the world welcome Gay celebrities who just want to live normal and mostly private lives with their partners and families.  Like most Straight celebrities do.

Meanwhile, no one is compiling a list of Gay celebrities who hire escorts.  Or Gay celebrities who go to Thailand to have sex with men.  Mostly, no one gives a shit.  And if they do, it is none of their fucking business.  

[xpaulo]

On 7/26/2023 at 2:52 PM, forky123 said:

You do not need to be "found innocent".

I don't know anything about the British justice system. I did cover a lot of court cases in Canada over a thirty year period as a news reporter. The terms like innocence and somebody being "cleared" are often used by the media when they should be used only rarely. You're right people are presumed innocent when the trial begins and they're still presumed innocent when the trial is over if they're not convicted. But presumed innocent and truly innocent are completely different. Presumed innocent is a legal term... the word innocent has a much broader meaning including what is actually the truth. That's because in Canadian courts in a not guilty verdict... the judge, or jury, usually find there was not enough evidence to convict the accused beyond a reasonable doubt. In the U.S. OJ was cleared in criminal court, but convicted in civil court. So is he innocent or not? I have seen on occasion a judge say at the end of the trial that he/she/they "accepts the evidence of the accused completely," or in its  "entirety." That's the closest I've seen to somebody being cleared.
 

[forky123]

If we get into the differing semantics in the use of "innocent" we are exposing ourselves to a "Steve Thesis" that may not sit on a single page of content. Let's just agree that in the legal sense KS is still "innocent" (ignoring the HoC law suit).

As for OJ, he was acquitted of murder (criminal) and then found guilty of wrongful death (civil). He has since been found guilty of numerous other charges (criminal), sentenced to 33 years and released on parole early for good behaviour (hardly innocent in either meaning.

4 hours ago, stevenkesslar said:

From rereading some of the articles from five years ago, it is clear that one reason Spacey caused a huge LGBTQ backlash is that he chose not to come out before.  Which is his choice, of course.  But when he did come out, it at least appeared to be that "I'm Gay" was somehow meant to explain or generate sympathy in the context of a whole bunch of allegations.  All of which went to the core of every trope used against Gay men forever.  We are pedophiles.  We groom children.  We can't control ourselves.  

The LGBTQ community should get over itself. Not everyone has the same upbringing, work life or life in general. People should come out when they are completely ready to and not before. That includes Spacey. Let's get something clear though. It's not the "LGBTQ community", it's always a relatively small but vocal subset with a string of keyboard warriors who will hound just about anyone. 

[stevenkesslar]

6 hours ago, forky123 said:

The LGBTQ community should get over itself. Not everyone has the same upbringing, work life or life in general. People should come out when they are completely ready to and not before. That includes Spacey. Let's get something clear though. It's not the "LGBTQ community", it's always a relatively small but vocal subset with a string of keyboard warriors who will hound just about anyone. 

We agree on all the main points.

I want to make sure what I said regarding the LGBTQ community is clear. I'll be brief.

I started that other thread on being a queer actor today to separate different things.  There is plenty of evidence that even if you are young, wildly hot, wildly popular, and Gay, it is STILL hard to come out as a queer actor in 2023.  Getting better.  But the people in the spotlight still obviously worry about ruining their career.  Or protecting their privacy.  Or both.

So, like I said on the other thread, I think it is perfectly understandable that Spacey did not come out in the 1990's, when fame came to him.  There's no reason to think he would have had it any easier than Gays in the military, at that time.  

I think the most positive way to say it is that coming out is not one size fits all.  It is different for everyone.  The specifics with Spacey is that he was also outed.  But not because he was Gay and had a husband.  Because he was Gay and was being accused of being a serial predator.  It was that particular combination that put Spacey in a unique place that no other Gay actor I can think of who came out, or has been outed, has been in.  I think organizations like GLAAD, which I cited above, were honest and fair.  First, we empathize with you as a Gay man.  Second, all these allegations are a completely separate matter from being Gay. 

But I agree with you that that some of the intolerant positions that what I'll call "Twitter Gays" - is it X Gays now? - have taken, like on queer baiting, are outside of the mainstream values - like tolerance and privacy - that most big LGBTQ organizations champion.

On 9/8/2023 at 12:51 AM, forky123 said:

As far as I've seen he's simply being left alone.

That's the key point to me.  We completely agree.  It's over.   Hopefully in a decade when fans learn actors they like are Gay, it will be as normal as simply assuming they are Straight.  And won't even need to be discussed.

[forky123]

42 minutes ago, stevenkesslar said:

So, like I said on the other thread, I think it is perfectly understandable that Spacey did not come out in the 1990's, when fame came to him.  There's no reason to think he would have had it any easier than Gays in the military, at that time.  

I was a gay in the military (85-99). I was lucky (?? really careful more like) in that I was never outed and thus not discriminated against. Yes, I chose to pursue a career where I knew it was illegal to be gay and that's my own fault. It was still a shock to find how anti-gay, racist and sexist the military was. I also saw the incredibly poor treatment of servicemen whose careers were ruined by an instance of bad luck or lack of care. Sometimes straight guys were kicked out because they were a little effeminate. I'm glad that things are finally improving somewhat. That period of my life reinforced to me how no one should be outed, nor be forced out and should only come out when they are ready. People being forced out by social media such as 18 year old Kit Conner and many other actors and celebrities is pretty sickening.

I won't then vilify Spacey for when or how he came out. Yes, it looked a little ugly and self-serving but I don't know what pressures he was under or what advice he was being given. I can only think he may not, or thought he did not, have a choice.

[xpaulo]

7 hours ago, forky123 said:

it's always a relatively small but vocal subset

I notice this in Canada with social media making a big deal about protests and anti-protests attended by about a dozen people attacking and defending trans people and all of them arguably there only to get attention on social media. And unfortunately the trans people have become the lightning rod for all the different subsets of people who hate homosexuals, immigrants, women.... basically anybody who they can blame for their own unsuccessful lives or insecurity. The great majority Canadians continue to dislike confrontation in society and prefer to mind their own business despite their own personal likes and dislikes.

[stevenkesslar]

6 hours ago, xpaulo said:

I notice this in Canada with social media making a big deal about protests and anti-protests attended by about a dozen people attacking and defending trans people and all of them arguably there only to get attention on social media. And unfortunately the trans people have become the lightning rod for all the different subsets of people who hate homosexuals, immigrants, women.... basically anybody who they can blame for their own unsuccessful lives or insecurity. The great majority Canadians continue to dislike confrontation in society and prefer to mind their own business despite their own personal likes and dislikes.

This is moving off Spacey.  But it seems like just about everything that could be said about him has been said.  This is about US public opinion.  Although it aligns with what you are saying about Canada.

The Democratic Party Left vs. the Center

Quote

A mere 18 percent of moderate voters back the Democratic position. In contrast, a healthy 47 percent favor the stronger regulation of transgender medical treatments approach and another 35 percent want transgender medical treatments banned for children. And only 15 percent of independents are in favor of the “gender-affirming” Democratic position while roughly equal proportions (42 and 43 percent, respectively) back the middle regulatory approach and the total ban approach.

The rather startling unpopularity of Democratic positions in these areas and their obvious distance from the views of the electoral center raises the question of where these unpopular views came from. Part of the answer is that not all Democrats have been enthusiasts for these positions, but the ones that have been punch way above their weight in the party.

If you have not followed Teixeira, he was co-author, with John Judis, of The Emerging Democratic Majority back in 2003.  The fact that he moved from being a liberal saying there was light at the end of the tunnel during the W/Iraq War era to being a liberal on the outs with "cultural leftism" does illustrate how much the Democratic Party has changed.  Personally, I view it as a nice problem.  Twenty years ago, Democrats were out of power.  Now we have to be careful about losing power.  Because what Teixeira calls cultural leftists do push hard and do turn the center off.

That essay covers a lot of hot button culture war issues, as is typical for him.  But trans issues, and especially medical treatment issues, are always front and center in the culture war.  And I have no doubt Teixeira's polling is right.  The issue he most focuses on is that this turns off White working class voters without college degrees, who are more aligned with the Democratic Party on issues I'd call economic populism - support for unions, tax the rich more, help the working class more.  But Teixeira focuses just as much on moderate Hispanic, Black and Asian voters who are turned off by what they see as extremes.

There's obviously a big difference between the 1990's, when you couldn't even be Gay and go die for your country, and today, when you can be married to a man and in the military. The issue now is whether the government should pay for your gender-affirming care.  It's a nice problem in the sense that that what used to be viewed as extreme in the 1990's in now mainstream.  That is a moving and also sad profile of what it was like for you, @forky123.  I'm glad that's behind us, too.

The only quarrel I have with Teixeira is how much these extremes are actually "Democratic" positions.  He left a left-of-center think tank where he felt unwelcome, in order to join the right-of-center American Enterprise Institute.  Which he felt was more open to broad debate.  If he is talking about think tank circles in DC or Twitter "activists," I am quite sure he is right that they think they speak for the Democratic Party.  But a lot of those moderates in his polls are Democrats.  He is right that if Democrats want power we should be worried about pushing them away.

This is, by the way, why I started a thread called "Have The Gays Gone Too Far?" To provoke a reaction.  My answer is NO, I don't think we have gone too far, in general.  I don't think same sex marriage or Gays in the military was going too far.  Although many saw it that way at the time. 

There is no question that on some of these issues, like gender-affirming care, a small group of activists are feeding fuel into the culture war in a way that could backfire badly.  Recall that "Gays in the military" was seen by most as a contributing factor to the massive electoral backlash in the 1994 midterms.  Which led Clinton to moderate, which pissed off lots and lots of Gays.  The good news to me is that nothing like that happened in 2022.  That said, I strongly agree with Teixeira.  He was right about getting the Democratic majority he wanted.  And he is right again about how "cultural leftism" could sabotage it.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled debate about groping and unwanted sexual advances.  😉

 

 

 

 

 

[unicorn]

On 9/7/2023 at 6:23 AM, stevenkesslar said:

... it sounds just from reading that article like almost every other sexual abuse or rape case.  Goal # 1 is to discredit the accuser....

Thank you, professor. To think that, all of this time I thought that to goal of a defense lawyer was to praise and support the accuser. 

[stevenkesslar]

4 hours ago, unicorn said:

Thank you, professor. To think that, all of this time I thought that to goal of a defense lawyer was to praise and support the accuser. 

You're welcome, doctor.  But I am surprised.  To think, all of this time, I thought doctors were know it alls.  Especially you.  🙄

Not sure if you are defending Spacey, or his lawyers.  Or just being a know it all who has something important to say.  Even though you don't seem to be saying anything.

I stand by my point.   Spacey hired lawyers who would make Trump proud, by being attack dogs trying to tear apart accusers to deflect from his serial disgusting and indefensible behavior.   

That quote of mine is from early in the thread.  Subsequent to that I posted lots of thorough documentation of Spacey's chronic habit of being a predator.  

 

[unicorn]

On 10/14/2023 at 10:52 PM, stevenkesslar said:

You're welcome, doctor.  But I am surprised.  To think, all of this time, I thought doctors were know it alls.  Especially you.  🙄

Not sure if you are defending Spacey, or his lawyers....

Oooh. Name-calling. You must be right. The point, Einstein, is that it's the job of all defense lawyers to discredit accusers, whether the accusers are right or wrong (sometimes they're right, sometimes they're not). It's pretty ridiculous to disparage someone for doing his job. I don't know specifically about KS. I have seen evidence that in at least some cases, the activity was quite consensual and even bragged about later. He may, in general, be a sleazebag, but just being accused doesn't make one a sleazebag. So far those who've looked actually looked at the evidence (neither of us) have not been convinced. 

[stevenkesslar]

29 minutes ago, unicorn said:

I don't know specifically about KS. I have seen evidence that in at least some cases, the activity was quite consensual and even bragged about later.

That's correct.  You don't know about Kevin Spacey.  Thanks for being honest.  You are doing a good job of revealing your ignorance on the issue of his predatory behavior. Despite there being a whole thread documenting and debating it.  

If your point is that you don't want to comment on Kevin Spacey, but instead want to defend the right of his attorneys to try to discredit people who sought justice, go ahead.  Or, if you are defending the right of all sexual predators to claim they were only doing consensual things, great.  It's a fair point.  They have the right to defend themselves.

Now back to Spacey. 

58 minutes ago, unicorn said:

He may, in general, be a sleazebag, but just being accused doesn't make one a sleazebag. So far those who've looked actually looked at the evidence (neither of us) have not been convinced. 

As I cited repeatedly above, and you appear to be ignorant of, the people who have looked at the evidence were convinced.  Spacey was fired for being a serial sexual predator.  Many people came forward and told stories about his sexually predatory behavior.  When he went to court and played innocent, he ended up having to pay $30 million.  His career is over, because it should be.

In case you missed it:

Kevin Spacey must pay over $30 million to "House Of Cards" makers, judge rules

Quote

A judge on Thursday ruled that Kevin Spacey and his production companies must pay the makers of "House of Cards" nearly $31 million because of losses brought on by his 2017 firing for the sexual harassment of crew members.

Spacey's predatory behavior that led to this was well documented.  It was not consensual.  The individuals he preyed on did not brag about it later.  They went to court.  

If you have any evidence to support what you are saying, about how his victims enjoyed it and bragged about it, please post it.  Mostly you are acting like a bad defense attorney.  You're just making shit up that you can't support at all with facts.  

If there is a movie about this, I will nominate you to play Kevin Spacey.  You clearly have the basic idea.  When lots of people come forward and accuse you of sexual harassment, the best approach is for you and your attorneys to claim you are so hot that of course they couldn't resist flirting with you.

And even if no real person did actually brag about how Spacey raped or groped them, we could cast a well known actor's kid in the movie to be the guy who told jokes about being groped by Spacey.  That would be worth a laugh.   And if you don't want to play Spacey, you could definitely play his defense attorney.  Although then, if you are really doing your job, you'd have to figure out how to discredit Richard Dreyfuss and his son.  That might be a little challenging for you.

Quote

6. Harry Dreyfuss: The son of Oscar-winning actor Richard Dreyfuss wrote a first-person column in BuzzFeed on Nov. 4 describing how Spacey groped his genitals when he was 18 and his father was in the room. Harry Dreyfuss said it happened in 2008 in London when Spacey was directing his father in a play at the Old Vic and the three were alone in Spacey's apartment rehearsing lines.

Quote

His father didn't see it, and he didn't tell him until many years later. Instead, Harry Dreyfuss, now an actor and writer in Los Angeles, told jokes about it at parties, although now he realizes there was nothing funny about it. “Kevin Spacey is a sexual predator. But I still never thought talking about it seriously was ever an option.” Buzzfeed quoted Bryan Freedman, one of Spacey's lawyers, as rejecting Harry's allegation: “Let me be clear, Mr. Spacey absolutely denies the allegations.”

Are you ready for your close up, doc?  Maybe we can make up some lines about how Harry was flirting with Kevin, really.  Which is exactly the kind of thing an 18 year old would do in front of his Dad, after all.  🙄