macaroni21

@newtobangkok123 in Thailand's massage parlours, whether it's a place primarily for legit massages or one primarily for erotic massages, the client makes two payments. The first is to the shop. The amount will be based on the their price list depending on the service you choose. You know that already. Some shops require you to pay before the session begins, other shops are happy to take payment (for the shop) after the session.
The second payment is directly from you to the service provider. It is always made AFTER the session. Your chief question is how to know how much.
First of all, not all massage places publish minimum tips. Some do, some don't. Legit massage places almost never publish minimum tips. Erotic massage places mostly do nowadays, or if they do not publish them publicly, the receptionist will whisper to you as you pay the shop's fee. Or, there will be something stated as a footnote on the menu card. Just be alert and pay attention. The rule of thumb is that any place with a stated minimum, however stated - whether publicly published, whispered or footnoted - you can assume to be an erotic massage place where the service provider expects that you would want a happy ending, or at least to get hard.
So, to your question: Once I know the minimum tip, does this tip include the happy ending?  the answer is Yes. Also, even if you decline the offer of a happy ending during the session, the minimum applies. That's simple enough
However, regular visitors to massage parlours do not always pay just the minimum. The "how much" gets trickier. If it's a handjob, something like the minimum, plus a bit more (20%?) if you're orgasmically over the moon, will be fine. But if it was mediocre, just pay the minimum. More often than not, there is no discussion about handjobs; the service provider proceeds towards it, and you have to stop him if you do not want the session to go in that direction.
If you're into plugging holes, you will probably be having a brief discussion in the room regarding who does what to whose hole, and in the course of that discussion, the service provider may mention a figure perhaps 25-50% higher than the previously stated minimum. Naturally, if you agree, that's the new minimum for your session. (If he quotes a new figure that is 75 - 100% above the pre-session minimum, I am likely to turn it down, as such a high mark-up probably indicates an unwillingness to go that route.) Whatever you've agreed, you can tip another 20-30% more above that new minimum if you're intoxicated with delight from his services (but they don't expect that). If for some reason, there is no discussion about any new minimum, then if he bottoms, you can still use the above percentages as a guide, i.e. anything from 25 - 50% above the minimum that was stated pre-session. If he tops. I think the pre-session minimum is still the reference level (but this is not an area I am familiar with).
If it's a legit massage, my practice is to think in terms of maximum tip and then discount from there. If it was an excellent legit massage, I would apply the maximum, which would be an amount for the service provider that is the same quantum as what the shop charged for the session. However, if it was legit, but substandard, then I start discounting from the maximum. Example: I book a legit massage for 700 baht. If the guy delivers a very good massage, he gets 700 too. If not so good, then 600, or 500 and so on.
What happens if, in what looks like a legit place, the service provider also delivers a handjob in the privacy of the room? If there was a discussion in the room, then all's clear. If no discussion, then I tend to tip some kind of industry average for handjob, which, in Bangkok (since you asked about Bangkok), may be in the 1000 - 1200 range.
As with all conversations about appropriate tips, this post is going to get wild reactions from other members of the board. Some will say my ranges are too high and I am spoiling the market. More likely, others will pick up a megaphone and decry what a cheapskate I am. Without knowing who I am or which country I come from, they will say that (a) I come from a rich country, (b) I am perforce rich, and (c) I am a disgrace to humanity for failing to throw money around like Mansa Musa on his pilgrimage to Mecca.
All I can say is that my rules of thumb have worked for the hundreds of massages I have had over decades, and no service provider has said - not to my face at least - I tip too little. I simply don't believe in bragging about my wealth (if any) by showing off. I was raised by parents who taught me that showing off is very crass.

@newtobangkok123 in Thailand's massage parlours, whether it's a place primarily for legit massages or one primarily for erotic massages, the client makes two payments. The first is to the shop. The amount will be based on the their price list depending on the service you choose. You know that already. Some shops require you to pay before the session begins, other shops are happy to take payment (for the shop) after the session.
The second payment is directly from you to the service provider. It is always made AFTER the session. Your chief question is how to know how much.
First of all, not all massage places publish minimum tips. Some do, some don't. Legit massage places almost never publish minimum tips. Erotic massage places mostly do nowadays, or if they do not publish them publicly, the receptionist will whisper to you as you pay the shop's fee. Or, there will be something stated as a footnote on the menu card. Just be alert and pay attention. The rule of thumb is that any place with a stated minimum, however stated - whether publicly published, whispered or footnoted - you can assume to be an erotic massage place where the service provider expects that you would want a happy ending, or at least to get hard.
So, to your question: Once I know the minimum tip, does this tip include the happy ending?  the answer is Yes. Also, even if you decline the offer of a happy ending during the session, the minimum applies. That's simple enough
However, regular visitors to massage parlours do not always pay just the minimum. The "how much" gets trickier. If it's a handjob, something like the minimum, plus a bit more (20%?) if you're orgasmically over the moon, will be fine. But if it was mediocre, just pay the minimum. More often than not, there is no discussion about handjobs; the service provider proceeds towards it, and you have to stop him if you do not want the session to go in that direction.
If you're into plugging holes, you will probably be having a brief discussion in the room regarding who does what to whose hole, and in the course of that discussion, the service provider may mention a figure perhaps 25-50% higher than the previously stated minimum. Naturally, if you agree, that's the new minimum for your session. (If he quotes a new figure that is 75 - 100% above the pre-session minimum, I am likely to turn it down, as such a high mark-up probably indicates an unwillingness to go that route.) Whatever you've agreed, you can tip another 20-30% more above that new minimum if you're intoxicated with delight from his services (but they don't expect that). If for some reason, there is no discussion about any new minimum, then if he bottoms, you can still use the above percentages as a guide, i.e. anything from 25 - 50% above the minimum that was stated pre-session. If he tops. I think the pre-session minimum is still the reference level (but this is not an area I am familiar with).
If it's a legit massage, my practice is to think in terms of maximum tip and then discount from there. If it was an excellent legit massage, I would apply the maximum, which would be an amount for the service provider that is the same quantum as what the shop charged for the session. However, if it was legit, but substandard, then I start discounting from the maximum. Example: I book a legit massage for 700 baht. If the guy delivers a very good massage, he gets 700 too. If not so good, then 600, or 500 and so on.
What happens if, in what looks like a legit place, the service provider also delivers a handjob in the privacy of the room? If there was a discussion in the room, then all's clear. If no discussion, then I tend to tip some kind of industry average for handjob, which, in Bangkok (since you asked about Bangkok), may be in the 1000 - 1200 range.
As with all conversations about appropriate tips, this post is going to get wild reactions from other members of the board. Some will say my ranges are too high and I am spoiling the market. More likely, others will pick up a megaphone and decry what a cheapskate I am. Without knowing who I am or which country I come from, they will say that (a) I come from a rich country, (b) I am perforce rich, and (c) I am a disgrace to humanity for failing to throw money around like Mansa Musa on his pilgrimage to Mecca.
All I can say is that my rules of thumb have worked for the hundreds of massages I have had over decades, and no service provider has said - not to my face at least - I tip too little. I simply don't believe in bragging about my wealth (if any) by showing off. I was raised by parents who taught me that showing off is very crass.

@newtobangkok123 in Thailand's massage parlours, whether it's a place primarily for legit massages or one primarily for erotic massages, the client makes two payments. The first is to the shop. The amount will be based on the their price list depending on the service you choose. You know that already. Some shops require you to pay before the session begins, other shops are happy to take payment (for the shop) after the session.
The second payment is directly from you to the service provider. It is always made AFTER the session. Your chief question is how to know how much.
First of all, not all massage places publish minimum tips. Some do, some don't. Legit massage places almost never publish minimum tips. Erotic massage places mostly do nowadays, or if they do not publish them publicly, the receptionist will whisper to you as you pay the shop's fee. Or, there will be something stated as a footnote on the menu card. Just be alert and pay attention. The rule of thumb is that any place with a stated minimum, however stated - whether publicly published, whispered or footnoted - you can assume to be an erotic massage place where the service provider expects that you would want a happy ending, or at least to get hard.
So, to your question: Once I know the minimum tip, does this tip include the happy ending?  the answer is Yes. Also, even if you decline the offer of a happy ending during the session, the minimum applies. That's simple enough
However, regular visitors to massage parlours do not always pay just the minimum. The "how much" gets trickier. If it's a handjob, something like the minimum, plus a bit more (20%?) if you're orgasmically over the moon, will be fine. But if it was mediocre, just pay the minimum. More often than not, there is no discussion about handjobs; the service provider proceeds towards it, and you have to stop him if you do not want the session to go in that direction.
If you're into plugging holes, you will probably be having a brief discussion in the room regarding who does what to whose hole, and in the course of that discussion, the service provider may mention a figure perhaps 25-50% higher than the previously stated minimum. Naturally, if you agree, that's the new minimum for your session. (If he quotes a new figure that is 75 - 100% above the pre-session minimum, I am likely to turn it down, as such a high mark-up probably indicates an unwillingness to go that route.) Whatever you've agreed, you can tip another 20-30% more above that new minimum if you're intoxicated with delight from his services (but they don't expect that). If for some reason, there is no discussion about any new minimum, then if he bottoms, you can still use the above percentages as a guide, i.e. anything from 25 - 50% above the minimum that was stated pre-session. If he tops. I think the pre-session minimum is still the reference level (but this is not an area I am familiar with).
If it's a legit massage, my practice is to think in terms of maximum tip and then discount from there. If it was an excellent legit massage, I would apply the maximum, which would be an amount for the service provider that is the same quantum as what the shop charged for the session. However, if it was legit, but substandard, then I start discounting from the maximum. Example: I book a legit massage for 700 baht. If the guy delivers a very good massage, he gets 700 too. If not so good, then 600, or 500 and so on.
What happens if, in what looks like a legit place, the service provider also delivers a handjob in the privacy of the room? If there was a discussion in the room, then all's clear. If no discussion, then I tend to tip some kind of industry average for handjob, which, in Bangkok (since you asked about Bangkok), may be in the 1000 - 1200 range.
As with all conversations about appropriate tips, this post is going to get wild reactions from other members of the board. Some will say my ranges are too high and I am spoiling the market. More likely, others will pick up a megaphone and decry what a cheapskate I am. Without knowing who I am or which country I come from, they will say that (a) I come from a rich country, (b) I am perforce rich, and (c) I am a disgrace to humanity for failing to throw money around like Mansa Musa on his pilgrimage to Mecca.
All I can say is that my rules of thumb have worked for the hundreds of massages I have had over decades, and no service provider has said - not to my face at least - I tip too little. I simply don't believe in bragging about my wealth (if any) by showing off. I was raised by parents who taught me that showing off is very crass.

I think the address on their website is wrong. Either that was an old address, and they have since moved, but did not update the website (a very common issue in both Thailand and Philippines), or they deliberately put up a fake address on their website to throw off the authorities. Between corrupt police and a prevailing homophobia in the country, police raids, closely followed by TV cameras, are a known thing.
A more detailed websearch indicates their real address is 1148 E. Rodrigues Sr Ave.  If you put that address into Google map and click their street view, you will see this, a Fahrenheit sign on the buidling.

I would not expect the inside of the place to be anything like their pictures. I would not trust any of their pictures either. For example, if you clicked "gallery" from their menu bar on their website ( https://fahrenheitcafe.com/gallery/) , you will see no photos, but a strange opening paragraph that says "An unforgettable dining experience in the heart of Covent Garden, London. Contemporary british menu, inspired by the traditions of Great Britain.".  
I think they ran out of money and didn't pay their website developer who abandoned the job halfway. I won't be surprised if the interior of the premises also has signs of running out of money and not paying the contractor properly.

I think the address on their website is wrong. Either that was an old address, and they have since moved, but did not update the website (a very common issue in both Thailand and Philippines), or they deliberately put up a fake address on their website to throw off the authorities. Between corrupt police and a prevailing homophobia in the country, police raids, closely followed by TV cameras, are a known thing.
A more detailed websearch indicates their real address is 1148 E. Rodrigues Sr Ave.  If you put that address into Google map and click their street view, you will see this, a Fahrenheit sign on the buidling.

I would not expect the inside of the place to be anything like their pictures. I would not trust any of their pictures either. For example, if you clicked "gallery" from their menu bar on their website ( https://fahrenheitcafe.com/gallery/) , you will see no photos, but a strange opening paragraph that says "An unforgettable dining experience in the heart of Covent Garden, London. Contemporary british menu, inspired by the traditions of Great Britain.".  
I think they ran out of money and didn't pay their website developer who abandoned the job halfway. I won't be surprised if the interior of the premises also has signs of running out of money and not paying the contractor properly.

This is the kind of business stupidity that is all too common in Thailand. It is self-defeating. By adopting this stance, it ended up with everybody losing. Bar didn't get drinks orders. Boys didn't get tips. Customer didn't get a good time.
The business does not know how to craft a winning formula that leaves everybody happy (One would imagine this is rule #1 of bsuiness marketing, and yet, it's like outer speace to many businesses in Thailand). Often, this failure to craft a better strategy is because (a) owners are unable to think critically and reexamine what they've always been doing, (b) they are completely unaware of the world beyond Thailand and therefore do not learn from seeing other strategies adopted by gay businesses outside Thailand.
Here's a thought experiement for @Olddaddy
Supposing Nice Boys had booths tucked deeper in the bar, and offered you this option that evening:
1.  Take a chosen boy into a booth, and he will private-dance for you for ten minutes (implication: he will wiggle and swing his thing and you can fondle to your heart's content, except no cum)
2.  Pay bar 100 baht.  Pay boy 200 baht.
Would you take up an offer like this -- where, for twice what you were tipping the boys, you get 10 minutes' worth rather than 1 minute's worth; the boy would earn 200 baht instead of 100 baht?  The bar too would earn 100 baht without the cost of even pouring a drink compared to whatever the price of a boy drink (200 baht?) in Nice Boys.
If you would take up such an offer, how many boys do you think your budget for that evening would allow for? Three boys (30 minutes' entertainment)?  Four boys (40 minutes)?

I think the address on their website is wrong. Either that was an old address, and they have since moved, but did not update the website (a very common issue in both Thailand and Philippines), or they deliberately put up a fake address on their website to throw off the authorities. Between corrupt police and a prevailing homophobia in the country, police raids, closely followed by TV cameras, are a known thing.
A more detailed websearch indicates their real address is 1148 E. Rodrigues Sr Ave.  If you put that address into Google map and click their street view, you will see this, a Fahrenheit sign on the buidling.

I would not expect the inside of the place to be anything like their pictures. I would not trust any of their pictures either. For example, if you clicked "gallery" from their menu bar on their website ( https://fahrenheitcafe.com/gallery/) , you will see no photos, but a strange opening paragraph that says "An unforgettable dining experience in the heart of Covent Garden, London. Contemporary british menu, inspired by the traditions of Great Britain.".  
I think they ran out of money and didn't pay their website developer who abandoned the job halfway. I won't be surprised if the interior of the premises also has signs of running out of money and not paying the contractor properly.

I'm glad you appreciate the map that I have drawn, and yours is a good question that gives me a chance to explain the editorial policy behind the blog and its contents.
To answer your specific question first, about the others that are left out ..... I have read about 27M massage near Inthamara 27, Home Massage about 100 metres short of the Vibhavadi Rangsit expressway, and 15M massage a bit NW of Exit 3 of Saphan Khwai.  But 
(a) they are outside the boundaries of my map;
(b) I have not verified their locations personally.
My general policy for my blog is that what I say is based on personal observation and verification. It is not supposed to be a compendium of the many different things said by others. In the occasional post, I may refer to something reported by others. When that happens, I make that abundantly clear in the text. For maps, if I haven't verified its existance, it is not there. You will notice that I try to take a picture of a shop's front, as sort of proof it is real and that I saw it for myself.
The drawback of such a policy is that the blog and its maps may omit places that I don't know about or haven't verified (it becomes under-inclusive). The upside is that I do not risk including things based on hearsay, e.g. resulting in the location marked wrongly.
Of course, it would be great if others likewise build their own maps.

There was one year when I happened to visit the city during one of these big events. The vast majority of the visitors at the event were Thais. I reckon they were either living in the Chonburi area or from Bangkok. I can't imagine them needing to spend an average of 8,333 baht per head. Even if that figure included hotel costs for 1 or 2 nights, they are almost all family groups, and so would have shared rooms.

Only been there once, though good enough that I'd repeat when there's an opportunity. In that one time, my guy was nude from the start, and transitioned to body-to-body midway. That said, I don't know if that is just the guy I hired (whose face is no longer among the pictures that Apollo sends out, so I guess he has quit), or if it is house policy. 
 
In the Saphan Khwai places for example, I have yet to discern any house policy, for example. Technique and service standard vary from one guy to the next, and it's likely because the boys are freelancers.
Frankly, this is something that the client can indicate, if the place is more brothel than massage. Since the boy is anyway going to remove his shorts midway, I doubt that he'd be offended if, at the very start, the client made some hand gestures that signal him to dispense with textile right away. He should only be delighted at the assurances of "special service required"  and tip that are implied.
I just glanced up at the pic of Baller again, and now I think he's more Iranian or Indian. Perhaps he is from the localised Indian community of Thailand (which may explain his speaking Thai).

You mean this guy?  He looks Turkish to me. I'd take him over the African guy anytime. His tip expectations are at the lower end of the Apollo range too.

 

The photo is not the clearest, but good enough to make out that Apollo Massage now lists a guy of African ancestry. What is interesting though is that the requested tips are 3,000 baht for 1 hour and 3,500 baht for 1.5 hours, (I presume in-house).
Not only are Apollo guys generally asking for higher tips than the Saphan Khwai places, as seen from their Line app sample, Dre is asking for twice higher.

(Explanation: He is said to be 1.80m tall, weigh 78 kg and fits a condom of size 56, and he is top)
Most boys advertised by Apollo offer three tip levels, e.g. "15/17/25" where the third figure indicates an outcall rate, but not this guy. Maybe no ID, so too risky to enter hotels?
You can see my November 2023 review of Apollo here: https://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog/2023/12/10/easy-come/

I'm glad you appreciate the map that I have drawn, and yours is a good question that gives me a chance to explain the editorial policy behind the blog and its contents.
To answer your specific question first, about the others that are left out ..... I have read about 27M massage near Inthamara 27, Home Massage about 100 metres short of the Vibhavadi Rangsit expressway, and 15M massage a bit NW of Exit 3 of Saphan Khwai.  But 
(a) they are outside the boundaries of my map;
(b) I have not verified their locations personally.
My general policy for my blog is that what I say is based on personal observation and verification. It is not supposed to be a compendium of the many different things said by others. In the occasional post, I may refer to something reported by others. When that happens, I make that abundantly clear in the text. For maps, if I haven't verified its existance, it is not there. You will notice that I try to take a picture of a shop's front, as sort of proof it is real and that I saw it for myself.
The drawback of such a policy is that the blog and its maps may omit places that I don't know about or haven't verified (it becomes under-inclusive). The upside is that I do not risk including things based on hearsay, e.g. resulting in the location marked wrongly.
Of course, it would be great if others likewise build their own maps.

Is that the one in an old house about 200m from the National Museum? If so, I think it was.
On a related note, I also had cashew nuts ice-cream in Brazil. No cashews to be seen, but there was the distinct flavour of cashews in in the cream part....

Is that the one in an old house about 200m from the National Museum? If so, I think it was.
On a related note, I also had cashew nuts ice-cream in Brazil. No cashews to be seen, but there was the distinct flavour of cashews in in the cream part....

Thanks, Vinapu.  As a matter of curiosity, I wonder how many members of this board have never experienced a pingpong girlie show.....

Is that the one in an old house about 200m from the National Museum? If so, I think it was.
On a related note, I also had cashew nuts ice-cream in Brazil. No cashews to be seen, but there was the distinct flavour of cashews in in the cream part....

I agree. 

I have tasted a version of "chicken in cashewnuts" (note the variation in the name of the dish) in Phnom Penh, where they were no crunchy nuts either. However, the chicken was bathed in a creamy sauce, and I could detect that what probably went into the cooking process was a long cooking time during the which the cashew nuts (which might have been pre-crushed into tiny bits) softened so much, they became the thickener in the sauce. I could taste the cashew in the sauce, which had the consistency of thick cream. 

This is the kind of business stupidity that is all too common in Thailand. It is self-defeating. By adopting this stance, it ended up with everybody losing. Bar didn't get drinks orders. Boys didn't get tips. Customer didn't get a good time.
The business does not know how to craft a winning formula that leaves everybody happy (One would imagine this is rule #1 of bsuiness marketing, and yet, it's like outer speace to many businesses in Thailand). Often, this failure to craft a better strategy is because (a) owners are unable to think critically and reexamine what they've always been doing, (b) they are completely unaware of the world beyond Thailand and therefore do not learn from seeing other strategies adopted by gay businesses outside Thailand.
Here's a thought experiement for @Olddaddy
Supposing Nice Boys had booths tucked deeper in the bar, and offered you this option that evening:
1.  Take a chosen boy into a booth, and he will private-dance for you for ten minutes (implication: he will wiggle and swing his thing and you can fondle to your heart's content, except no cum)
2.  Pay bar 100 baht.  Pay boy 200 baht.
Would you take up an offer like this -- where, for twice what you were tipping the boys, you get 10 minutes' worth rather than 1 minute's worth; the boy would earn 200 baht instead of 100 baht?  The bar too would earn 100 baht without the cost of even pouring a drink compared to whatever the price of a boy drink (200 baht?) in Nice Boys.
If you would take up such an offer, how many boys do you think your budget for that evening would allow for? Three boys (30 minutes' entertainment)?  Four boys (40 minutes)?

Popular blogger and contributor here visited new boy bar on Walking Street and reported in his blog what he found.
link below
 
https://shamelessmacktwo.travel.blog/2024/01/03/russian-girls-russian-boys-and-catwalk/#more-3507

Whoever isn’t “triggered” by a sad angry offensive clown attempting to legitimize his xenophobia by scratching around for obscure references made by others to the same category of people is asleep at the wheel. Period. The assertion that somebody is triggered, as if it represents some kind of flaw, is the typical feeble go-to lazy language choice made by a troll anxiously trying to gain ground in a debate. You would never have come up with it but for matriculation from the troll academy. In fact, there is no debate. 
Some entry visas, to chat platforms, should be subject to review. I might add that it’s small-t trigger; quite small potatoes, you. The predominant reason you would publish your outlandish comments about a specific nationality here is that you elicit little more than eyerolls in the real world, measuring your significance according to the degree to which you do successfully piss others off. Get help.

Spoon is onto something. Based on 4-5 sessions with Silom 6 shops over the past 5 years, I'd say they are more rub-and-tug than any decent massage, with one exception. My recent visit to 9teen turned out well, with a pretty good massage.
On the Surawong side ( Green, new Aravin) you're more likely to get a decent massage. The extras have always been available  as well.

This is the kind of business stupidity that is all too common in Thailand. It is self-defeating. By adopting this stance, it ended up with everybody losing. Bar didn't get drinks orders. Boys didn't get tips. Customer didn't get a good time.
The business does not know how to craft a winning formula that leaves everybody happy (One would imagine this is rule #1 of bsuiness marketing, and yet, it's like outer speace to many businesses in Thailand). Often, this failure to craft a better strategy is because (a) owners are unable to think critically and reexamine what they've always been doing, (b) they are completely unaware of the world beyond Thailand and therefore do not learn from seeing other strategies adopted by gay businesses outside Thailand.
Here's a thought experiement for @Olddaddy
Supposing Nice Boys had booths tucked deeper in the bar, and offered you this option that evening:
1.  Take a chosen boy into a booth, and he will private-dance for you for ten minutes (implication: he will wiggle and swing his thing and you can fondle to your heart's content, except no cum)
2.  Pay bar 100 baht.  Pay boy 200 baht.
Would you take up an offer like this -- where, for twice what you were tipping the boys, you get 10 minutes' worth rather than 1 minute's worth; the boy would earn 200 baht instead of 100 baht?  The bar too would earn 100 baht without the cost of even pouring a drink compared to whatever the price of a boy drink (200 baht?) in Nice Boys.
If you would take up such an offer, how many boys do you think your budget for that evening would allow for? Three boys (30 minutes' entertainment)?  Four boys (40 minutes)?

Spoon is onto something. Based on 4-5 sessions with Silom 6 shops over the past 5 years, I'd say they are more rub-and-tug than any decent massage, with one exception. My recent visit to 9teen turned out well, with a pretty good massage.
On the Surawong side ( Green, new Aravin) you're more likely to get a decent massage. The extras have always been available  as well.