16 minutes ago, daydreamer said:

While your story about a previous location of the bar before the pandemic may be correct, the bar is not currently located on a floor in a dark alley, and easy to miss, as you assert. It is at streetside level, facing the soi, exactly as shown in the photo, right next to the southern edge of the large Night Bazaar building. In order for it to be 20 meters north, that would place it north of the Night Bazaar building. The large building in the photo is the Night Bazaar building, and the bar is located as shown, not as you described.

I think you may have misunderstood my post. I'm not saying that the location of the original bar had changed but the original owner and his business had moved nearby. I was last there in October 2024 just after the big floods. I think somebody else may have taken over the old premises after Covid (I believe the bar has changed hands several times - there was a Scot involved at one point and a Thai who was quite ill) and retained the old name of the bar and they had to close again during the devastating floods of October 2024

The post flood clean up took up to a month in some areas and the bar wasn't yet open when I was there. The original owner (Deet?) had moved and started a new bar in a small alley about 20 metres to the left of the bar in your pictures. As one faces the bar in your googled pictures and looks to the left, there's the pay toilet that you used, then the wide staircase leading to the first floor and then the new bar owned by the former owner of Chiang Mai 19 in a small alley on the extreme left on the ground floor, also in the same building.

A very long time ago there was a pizza shop in that CM 19 spot run by a former manager of Adam's Apple. He had been a tuk-tuk driver for a while after leaving Adam's before opening the pizza shop. He then moved and opened a proper pizza and Thai restaurant on Loi Kroh Road nearby which I frequented a few times. The restaurant's closed sadly. Try googling it.

Thailand may have re-opened its doors for tourism following Covid in October 2022 but only the businesses that had the resources to do so did and often not immediately. Some had closed permanently as did many SMEs in Chiang Mai following the big flood in October 2024.

20 minutes ago, aaroninatl said:

I made up for that for sure at least on my tour.

helping to spread world wealth more evenly is very noble undertaking

3 minutes ago, vinapu said:

helping to spread world wealth more evenly is very noble undertaking

For sure, especially when they have a great attitude. As much as I criticize people from my country, that’s one thing I have noticed when I do tours outside the US. Americans generally tip on these tours pretty well… at least in my experience.

22 minutes ago, mauRICE said:

I think you misunderstood.

I misunderstood nothing. I made a post about a business, and you jumped in to refute what I posted. Had you been correct, I would graciously admit my mistake.

11 minutes ago, aaroninatl said:

As much as I criticize people from my country, that’s one thing I have noticed when I do tours outside the US. Americans generally tip on these tours pretty well… at least to my experience.

I consider American tourists well behaving, specially in countries where not much English is spoken they seem to be always in line.

As for generous tipping it comes not only from good heart but also from home experience - tipping is exponentially more ingrained for North Americans than people from other regions , for some of them it may be very exotic habit indeed if not outright offensive or stupid.

When it comes to tipping, one thing I’m very glad that hasn’t caught on here in Asia is the culture of pre-tipping as I call it. I can’t tell you how many places in the US I just don’t go to anymore because of it. Tips for me are reward and gratitude for great service. So many places in the US now, you have to tip when you place your order. Of course it’s voluntary but you feel like a crumb if you don’t. Drives me insane. If your employees are underpaid, just charge me more for my coffee. I’ll pay it.

18 minutes ago, vinapu said:

I consider American tourists well behaving, specially in countries where not much English is spoken they seem to be always in line.

I agree totally with the first part of your comment.

Americans have always gotten a bar rap in Australia - especially now - but in my years of traveling around and running into them in hotels, restaurants and out in the tourist areas, I've only found them to be incredibly friendly and polite.

I have found, however, that some don't seem to know a lot about the world outside of the US .

More than once I've been complimented on my English ability. When I told them I was from Australia, they said they thought we spoke a different language called 'Australian'!

I've only ever met 2 obnoxious Americans.

One was a grossly obese New York policeman. We were in France and he decided he'd sit at an outdoor cafe and eat his MacDonald's hamburger. When the waiter came over and told him he couldn't eat there he hit the roof and caused quite a scene and refused to leave. It was embarrassing.

The other one was in a hotel in the pretty little town of Hallstatt in Austria. We were both standing at reception, waiting for someone to come and check us in. A young Asian girl- a cleaner- came down the stairs and he rushed over to her and demanded she call someone. The poor girl just stood there while he kept raising his voice. I suggested to him that she obviously didn't understand English and shouting at her wouldn't magically make her understand him.

I was told to 'shut the fuck up' and to 'mind your own fucking business'. 🤣🤣

Imho the 'ugly American' is a bit of a myth.

The 'ugly Chinese' is a different matter.

My first embarrassed-to-be-an-American moment was in Paris. Valentines Day... the Eiffel Tower. It's night time. The tower lights are sparkling. As I'm walking towards it for the first time in awe, an American couple is walking away from the beautiful structure. When they got closer, I heard the disappointed girlfriend whine: "I thought the gift shop would be bigger." I can still feel the cringe 20 years later. She probably would have been happier if there was a Walmart on the second level.

But yeah, for the most part I agree @a-447, Americans who are traveling abroad are generally the more well-educated, open-minded and socially-conscious type. The trust fund college kids who travel abroad to find the best beer get annoying (unless they're hot 😜) but fortunately those Eiffel Tower girlfriend moments are rare.

The frustrating part of being an American abroad these days is something I've experienced twice this week. In conversations, when they ID me as being from the United States, they gingerly step around politics and assume I'm a Trumper. The orange man somehow has convinced the world he has the entire country's undying loyalty. I politely let them in on his approval rating.

Anyway, back to Chiang Mai. No big plans today. Going to roam around Nimman a bit more and see if I can view a few apartments. Maybe a bar or massage tonight, perhaps that little local bar you mentioned @daydreamer. I did book a minivan to see Mae Kampong Friday. It's not a tour or personal driver, but I'll have a few hours to wander around. Another "seriously that's it?" moment... $14 roundtrip.

1 hour ago, daydreamer said:

I misunderstood nothing. I made a post about a business, and you jumped in to refute what I posted. Had you been correct, I would graciously admit my mistake.

Please. This isn't a competition and there's no need to apologise even if you felt that you had made a mistake. I understood your post to be your experience based on your 3-day jaunt, nothing more, nothing less. I, on the other hand, was only sharing my experiences of the area that go back a decade at least. Reviews of a venue may be helpful but they only provide a snapshot of the time we were there and are influenced by our biases, moods, personalities and perceived knowledge, not to mention the day-to-day variables that affect the venue itself. Moreover, things are always changing and businesses open and close all the time. This is why I say go and experience it for yourself and be cognizant of the variables that I just mentioned. Hence, I wouldn't tell anyone to "avoid, avoid, avoid" a certain venue just because I had a negative experience.

To share my own experience, I never liked Pattaya very much but enjoyed my two most recent trips tremendously. Looking back, I realise that my views of Pattaya were largely impacted by my feelings about Sunee Plaza and the horrible things that were going on there, and the fact that one could barely walk around the main tourist areas in the city without running into a bar or brothel of some kind. Now, all that's changed and I'm already looking forward to my next visit before the end of the year.

1 hour ago, aaroninatl said:

For sure, especially when they have a great attitude. As much as I criticize people from my country, that’s one thing I have noticed when I do tours outside the US. Americans generally tip on these tours pretty well… at least in my experience.

One Reason is that they are conditioned to tip, by the regime in the US, which i find objectionable. For example, being asked by the card machine to add a tip of 18%, where I merely handed over a Pret sandwich, is absurd, IMHO. I am happy to tip when justified, I have breakfast at the Red Flame Diner in NY, where the harassed Hispanic staff work hard, so tip justified. Mind you each waitress does 6 or so tables, average tip $4 per person, two sets of customers every 30 mins or so, though tables not full, say 20 people an hour, not bad! I assume tips are shared, as some are cash, some paid on card. I always wonder if the back room staff, so to speak, get to share in tips. @floridarob will know!

'Maybe a bar or massage tonight'

I hope you can report on any massage experience you have in CM.

Given that Adams seems to have lost a bit of its sparkle, massage parlours may be all we have left for a bit of fun.

8 minutes ago, a-447 said:

'Maybe a bar or massage tonight'

I hope you can report on any massage experience you have in CM.

Given that Adams seems to have lost a bit of its sparkle, massage parlours may be all we have left for a bit of fun.

Totally open to suggestions. I have only done Aqua and Gentle (I think I reported on both earlier). Had the good legit massage at Gentle so I'm probably ready for something a little spicier tonight. I love that adjective they use here. Twinks and twunks are usually my thing. Straight is a-ok as I'm not looking for sex. At the same time I don't want to leave hornier than when I walked in. 😉

@Keithambrose yeah w/ the sandwich thing, that's what I was referring to when I was saying "pre-tipping." Drives me nuts too... especially when there's little to no service given.

35 minutes ago, a-447 said:

'Maybe a bar or massage tonight'

Given that Adams seems to have lost a bit of its sparkle, massage parlours may be all we have left for a bit of fun.

If you liked Kon and Mai, I think you'll find someone there to your liking. The current owner is a pleasant, soft-spoken, Thai-speaking German guy who takes good care of and is respected by his staff, which I always see as a good sign.

Also check out Circle Pub. A note about them: they tend to hold handsome/sexy boy contests quite often which are open to guys who aren't working in the bar. Therefore, the handsome guys you see on their socials may not be on staff.

@musgrave - Did a little Googling... the cafe you mentioned, did you meal Elely? Has a bunch of dogs and a couple elephants on a spread out nature view? If so that looks awesome. It is a bit far out north... thinking that might be a good plan for Sunday when my guy is here. I'm sure I can get a Grab to take us there but would it be difficult to get one back? (Seems remote.)

51 minutes ago, aaroninatl said:

@Keithambrose yeah w/ the sandwich thing, that's what I was referring to when I was saying "pre-tipping." Drives me nuts too... especially when there's little to no service given.

Ok, I've learnt a new phrase! In Pret, if you just get a sandwich, they just punch in the price, and hand you the machine!

1 minute ago, Keithambrose said:

Ok, I've learnt a new phrase! In Pret, if you just get a sandwich, they just punch in the price, and hand you the machine!

Yeah it's all over now. Pizza takeout spots, coffee shops, it's spread like wildfire over the past couple years in the US. You really have to be one of my favorite places to get me to come back if you do that whole tip in advance routine. There's a sub shop in Philly I love and the staff's always great. In that case I don't mind "pre-tipping." But yeah, unless you're going to give me a crystal ball when I order, I'm not good at guessing how your service is going to be. The real kick in the balls is when you do pretip well and get lousy service or product.

On 9/22/2026 at 11:52 AM, aaroninatl said:

The Bangkok vs Chiang Mai decision is really getting harder.

Didn't you say you were planning to try out different places for six months at a time? So do that. It doesn't have to be either or. Bearing in mind that six months is 26 weeks, and say you visit one new place a week, very soon you're going to run out of elephant camps and you'll still need to figure out what you're going to do with the rest of your time.

You've been in Thailand a month now; have you made a Thai friend yet?

If you're thinking of learning Thai, I can suggest several no-pressure beginner Thai classes.

PS I like the omelette and veggies. Keep it up. 👍

17 minutes ago, aaroninatl said:

Yeah it's all over now. Pizza takeout spots, coffee shops, it's spread like wildfire over the past couple years in the US. You really have to be one of my favorite places to get me to come back if you do that whole tip in advance routine. There's a sub shop in Philly I love and the staff's always great. In that case I don't mind "pre-tipping." But yeah, unless you're going to give me a crystal ball when I order, I'm not good at guessing how your service is going to be. The real kick in the balls is when you do pretip well and get lousy service or product.

In the UK, we are used to a service charge, always set out on menu, which is fixed, more often 12.5%, or 15. Usually said to be optional, so if service is really bad, you can take it off, I rarely do. I have not yet seen pre-tipping, but I have heard that it is beginning to happen. No rationale for it, as waiters, etc are paid same as everybody else, not well, but subject to minimum wage, etc. If this carries on, do we tip at supermarkets, dry cleaners whatever? I have always said that it takes 10 years, or so, but what happens in the USA, comes here! You had Trump1, we got Boris Johnson!

4 minutes ago, Keithambrose said:

I have always said that it takes 10 years, or so, but what happens in the USA, comes here! You had Trump1, we got Boris Johnson!

And both with the same hair!

Yeah many countries now have a Trump'y movement happening. Thing is Trump isn't the problem. He's a symptom of the problem. Many are eager to see some big changes in November in the U.S., but here's the thing. Even when the orange blob is gone (hopefully) in 2 years, the underlying problem is the cretin following he's inspired. They rarely voted before he came along. They'll find some new figurehead that'll justify their racism by calling it national pride. But the thing I tell people I meet here is not to judge the entire country by the MAGA movement. They're a cult. But not a majority. A problem is MAGA and more normal conservatives (I know, probably a contradiction in terms for many) are going to vote the same way. So it's almost 2 on 1 for a dem right now.

I'm sure politics are frowned upon on boards like this... and they should be. But it's relevant in that where the country is right now is a big motivator for me to go back and vote in November, then get out and explore the world starting next year. I have been wanting to do this for years but wanted to be here for my folks while they were still around. Both of my parents have now passed so this is why plans are in motion. I still have family and friends I'll want to come back to the US and visit. But there's no better time than now for me to do a reset and live in and explore other countries.

I've been to a couple dozen countries and none have made me feel like Thailand does. I've watched far too many YouTube videos, read countless blogs and stories from expats, done the research on visas, healthcare and so forth. Everything pointed to this part of the world. But I wasn't going to make a big decision like this without being here for a couple months. Not seeing and hearing the orange blob on a daily basis has been wonderful… until I fire up my laptop. 😆

3 hours ago, a-447 said:

Imho the 'ugly American' is a bit of a myth.

The 'ugly Chinese' is a different matter.

What about Chinese Americans? Isn't there a derogatory, racist descriptor you'd like to ascribe to them?

With due respect, you're quick to jump and attack over the slightest perceived slur on yourself yet are so generous dishing them out to others.

3 hours ago, mauRICE said:

Please. This isn't a competition and there's no need to apologise even if you felt that you had made a mistake. I understood your post to be your experience based on your 3-day jaunt, nothing more, nothing less. I, on the other hand, was only sharing my experiences of the area that go back a decade at least. Reviews of a venue may be helpful but they only provide a snapshot of the time we were there and are influenced by our biases, moods, personalities and perceived knowledge, not to mention the day-to-day variables that affect the venue itself. Moreover, things are always changing and businesses open and close all the time. This is why I say go and experience it for yourself and be cognizant of the variables that I just mentioned. Hence, I wouldn't tell anyone to "avoid, avoid, avoid" a certain venue just because I had a negative experience.

To share my own experience, I never liked Pattaya very much but enjoyed my two most recent trips tremendously. Looking back, I realise that my views of Pattaya were largely impacted by my feelings about Sunee Plaza and the horrible things that were going on there, and the fact that one could barely walk around the main tourist areas in the city without running into a bar or brothel of some kind. Now, all that's changed and I'm already looking forward to my next visit before the end of the year.

You are in a hole of your of your own making and I suggest you stop digging. You are making a fool of yourself mauRICE. An apology to daydreamer would be appropriate if you are a big enough man to apologise?

No, I'm not in a hole. I'm enjoying a lovely cup of tea and some very moist fruitcake in a beautiful tearoom overlooking the Twin Towers. There are fresh flowers on the table and soft music playing in the background. Recollections and viewpoints may vary but I've said what I wanted to say on the topic without resorting to calling people fools or using ad hominem attacks to support my arguments. Others may disagree with me which is to be expected in a forum like this; I don't view disagreements as a slight on me personally but as part of the learning experience.

Not following, and unsure of the actual worth of this thread content in practical terms unless condensed.