Londoner

Some good advice here; I hope newtobangkok12 feels that his questions have been answered.
As a general point, we should be welcoming newbies both to Gay Thailand and to this forum. Neither will survive without such people.

Some good advice here; I hope newtobangkok12 feels that his questions have been answered.
As a general point, we should be welcoming newbies both to Gay Thailand and to this forum. Neither will survive without such people.

Some good advice here; I hope newtobangkok12 feels that his questions have been answered.
As a general point, we should be welcoming newbies both to Gay Thailand and to this forum. Neither will survive without such people.

Some good advice here; I hope newtobangkok12 feels that his questions have been answered.
As a general point, we should be welcoming newbies both to Gay Thailand and to this forum. Neither will survive without such people.

Some good advice here; I hope newtobangkok12 feels that his questions have been answered.
As a general point, we should be welcoming newbies both to Gay Thailand and to this forum. Neither will survive without such people.

Some good advice here; I hope newtobangkok12 feels that his questions have been answered.
As a general point, we should be welcoming newbies both to Gay Thailand and to this forum. Neither will survive without such people.

@newtobangkok123 in Thailand's massage parlours, whether it's a place primarily for legit massages or one primarily for erotic massages, the client makes two payments. The first is to the shop. The amount will be based on the their price list depending on the service you choose. You know that already. Some shops require you to pay before the session begins, other shops are happy to take payment (for the shop) after the session.
The second payment is directly from you to the service provider. It is always made AFTER the session. Your chief question is how to know how much.
First of all, not all massage places publish minimum tips. Some do, some don't. Legit massage places almost never publish minimum tips. Erotic massage places mostly do nowadays, or if they do not publish them publicly, the receptionist will whisper to you as you pay the shop's fee. Or, there will be something stated as a footnote on the menu card. Just be alert and pay attention. The rule of thumb is that any place with a stated minimum, however stated - whether publicly published, whispered or footnoted - you can assume to be an erotic massage place where the service provider expects that you would want a happy ending, or at least to get hard.
So, to your question: Once I know the minimum tip, does this tip include the happy ending?  the answer is Yes. Also, even if you decline the offer of a happy ending during the session, the minimum applies. That's simple enough
However, regular visitors to massage parlours do not always pay just the minimum. The "how much" gets trickier. If it's a handjob, something like the minimum, plus a bit more (20%?) if you're orgasmically over the moon, will be fine. But if it was mediocre, just pay the minimum. More often than not, there is no discussion about handjobs; the service provider proceeds towards it, and you have to stop him if you do not want the session to go in that direction.
If you're into plugging holes, you will probably be having a brief discussion in the room regarding who does what to whose hole, and in the course of that discussion, the service provider may mention a figure perhaps 25-50% higher than the previously stated minimum. Naturally, if you agree, that's the new minimum for your session. (If he quotes a new figure that is 75 - 100% above the pre-session minimum, I am likely to turn it down, as such a high mark-up probably indicates an unwillingness to go that route.) Whatever you've agreed, you can tip another 20-30% more above that new minimum if you're intoxicated with delight from his services (but they don't expect that). If for some reason, there is no discussion about any new minimum, then if he bottoms, you can still use the above percentages as a guide, i.e. anything from 25 - 50% above the minimum that was stated pre-session. If he tops. I think the pre-session minimum is still the reference level (but this is not an area I am familiar with).
If it's a legit massage, my practice is to think in terms of maximum tip and then discount from there. If it was an excellent legit massage, I would apply the maximum, which would be an amount for the service provider that is the same quantum as what the shop charged for the session. However, if it was legit, but substandard, then I start discounting from the maximum. Example: I book a legit massage for 700 baht. If the guy delivers a very good massage, he gets 700 too. If not so good, then 600, or 500 and so on.
What happens if, in what looks like a legit place, the service provider also delivers a handjob in the privacy of the room? If there was a discussion in the room, then all's clear. If no discussion, then I tend to tip some kind of industry average for handjob, which, in Bangkok (since you asked about Bangkok), may be in the 1000 - 1200 range.
As with all conversations about appropriate tips, this post is going to get wild reactions from other members of the board. Some will say my ranges are too high and I am spoiling the market. More likely, others will pick up a megaphone and decry what a cheapskate I am. Without knowing who I am or which country I come from, they will say that (a) I come from a rich country, (b) I am perforce rich, and (c) I am a disgrace to humanity for failing to throw money around like Mansa Musa on his pilgrimage to Mecca.
All I can say is that my rules of thumb have worked for the hundreds of massages I have had over decades, and no service provider has said - not to my face at least - I tip too little. I simply don't believe in bragging about my wealth (if any) by showing off. I was raised by parents who taught me that showing off is very crass.

Welcome to the forums.  Don't let a troll ... bully you out of here.  Give it some time for participants to offer meaningful comments / advice - point you in the right direction.  If you haven't spent the time to read through the many archived discussions, some of which answer newbie questions, please do so.  

Yes I read it and lots of other stuff, but I still didn't understand, so I asked a question to clarify. 
I'm still not clear on whether parlours that do not ask for tips are "that kind" of parlour, hence my follow-up question.
The forum is currently accepting new registrations so I did not think being a new member was a problem. I apologize.

Caveat emptor. I've said this before , but here goes....
In this game, the buyer always takes a risk. I recall taking guys back to the hotel after enjoying all sorts of clandestine festivities and salacious hints in the bar, captivated by  their  good looks and apparent willingness. And then, even walking back along Surawong or wherever, noticing a distinct change in attitude. Less accommodating, you could say. This followed by doing the absolute basics in the room, collecting the money (once or twice even neglecting to shower)  before rushing back to the bar for assignation number two. Or three.
Even the most experienced of us cannot be sure.  As for today's market, I am certainly aware of old photos being used on- line. Inaccurate descriptions, promised activities denied and much else. Sometimes, it has to be admitted, by falangs  themselves.... or so I'm told.
And my answer is always the same. It's part of the game; live with it and  "move on" to the next guy. He may turn out to be a stunner....or even a life partner!
Punters should also remember that the guys themselves take risks. Is this kindly  falang in the photo or the bar a wannabee Hannibal Lector? will  he demand activities I don't like? will he pay what I need? or what I was promised? will he even be clean?
if you play the game, you must accept that occasionally- in my experience very rarely- you will sometimes lose or have to be satisfied with a draw.

Caveat emptor. I've said this before , but here goes....
In this game, the buyer always takes a risk. I recall taking guys back to the hotel after enjoying all sorts of clandestine festivities and salacious hints in the bar, captivated by  their  good looks and apparent willingness. And then, even walking back along Surawong or wherever, noticing a distinct change in attitude. Less accommodating, you could say. This followed by doing the absolute basics in the room, collecting the money (once or twice even neglecting to shower)  before rushing back to the bar for assignation number two. Or three.
Even the most experienced of us cannot be sure.  As for today's market, I am certainly aware of old photos being used on- line. Inaccurate descriptions, promised activities denied and much else. Sometimes, it has to be admitted, by falangs  themselves.... or so I'm told.
And my answer is always the same. It's part of the game; live with it and  "move on" to the next guy. He may turn out to be a stunner....or even a life partner!
Punters should also remember that the guys themselves take risks. Is this kindly  falang in the photo or the bar a wannabee Hannibal Lector? will  he demand activities I don't like? will he pay what I need? or what I was promised? will he even be clean?
if you play the game, you must accept that occasionally- in my experience very rarely- you will sometimes lose or have to be satisfied with a draw.

Caveat emptor. I've said this before , but here goes....
In this game, the buyer always takes a risk. I recall taking guys back to the hotel after enjoying all sorts of clandestine festivities and salacious hints in the bar, captivated by  their  good looks and apparent willingness. And then, even walking back along Surawong or wherever, noticing a distinct change in attitude. Less accommodating, you could say. This followed by doing the absolute basics in the room, collecting the money (once or twice even neglecting to shower)  before rushing back to the bar for assignation number two. Or three.
Even the most experienced of us cannot be sure.  As for today's market, I am certainly aware of old photos being used on- line. Inaccurate descriptions, promised activities denied and much else. Sometimes, it has to be admitted, by falangs  themselves.... or so I'm told.
And my answer is always the same. It's part of the game; live with it and  "move on" to the next guy. He may turn out to be a stunner....or even a life partner!
Punters should also remember that the guys themselves take risks. Is this kindly  falang in the photo or the bar a wannabee Hannibal Lector? will  he demand activities I don't like? will he pay what I need? or what I was promised? will he even be clean?
if you play the game, you must accept that occasionally- in my experience very rarely- you will sometimes lose or have to be satisfied with a draw.

Caveat emptor. I've said this before , but here goes....
In this game, the buyer always takes a risk. I recall taking guys back to the hotel after enjoying all sorts of clandestine festivities and salacious hints in the bar, captivated by  their  good looks and apparent willingness. And then, even walking back along Surawong or wherever, noticing a distinct change in attitude. Less accommodating, you could say. This followed by doing the absolute basics in the room, collecting the money (once or twice even neglecting to shower)  before rushing back to the bar for assignation number two. Or three.
Even the most experienced of us cannot be sure.  As for today's market, I am certainly aware of old photos being used on- line. Inaccurate descriptions, promised activities denied and much else. Sometimes, it has to be admitted, by falangs  themselves.... or so I'm told.
And my answer is always the same. It's part of the game; live with it and  "move on" to the next guy. He may turn out to be a stunner....or even a life partner!
Punters should also remember that the guys themselves take risks. Is this kindly  falang in the photo or the bar a wannabee Hannibal Lector? will  he demand activities I don't like? will he pay what I need? or what I was promised? will he even be clean?
if you play the game, you must accept that occasionally- in my experience very rarely- you will sometimes lose or have to be satisfied with a draw.

Caveat emptor. I've said this before , but here goes....
In this game, the buyer always takes a risk. I recall taking guys back to the hotel after enjoying all sorts of clandestine festivities and salacious hints in the bar, captivated by  their  good looks and apparent willingness. And then, even walking back along Surawong or wherever, noticing a distinct change in attitude. Less accommodating, you could say. This followed by doing the absolute basics in the room, collecting the money (once or twice even neglecting to shower)  before rushing back to the bar for assignation number two. Or three.
Even the most experienced of us cannot be sure.  As for today's market, I am certainly aware of old photos being used on- line. Inaccurate descriptions, promised activities denied and much else. Sometimes, it has to be admitted, by falangs  themselves.... or so I'm told.
And my answer is always the same. It's part of the game; live with it and  "move on" to the next guy. He may turn out to be a stunner....or even a life partner!
Punters should also remember that the guys themselves take risks. Is this kindly  falang in the photo or the bar a wannabee Hannibal Lector? will  he demand activities I don't like? will he pay what I need? or what I was promised? will he even be clean?
if you play the game, you must accept that occasionally- in my experience very rarely- you will sometimes lose or have to be satisfied with a draw.

I like Bangkok Air too. The only problem I have with them is that they seem to have regular data breaches. Within a few years I was informed already twice about a data breach. The first one also included credit card data. The other one was just very recently.
Or maybe they are the only airline who report about data breaches and the other airlines don't ?

Just a short comment about my departure this morning from Swampy on way to the delights of Siem Reap. I was flying Bangkok Airlines, whom I think are impressive. Their website knocks spots off BA. Checked in on line, so went in search of fast lane, on account of being over 70. It's sort of where it was before,  at the extreme right hand edge, but now concealed by a blue fence. Once you negotiate this, and, I'm glad to say, staff refused several pax, the security line was ok, 7-8 mins. Passports 5 mins, officers, no machines. All in all not bad.  You then pass the area where the great unwashed are in line, looked horrendous!!
 
Although in economy, it's an all economy flight, I thought I'd try the Bangkok Airways lounge. No-one there, at the entrance, so I made myself comfortable. Subsequently,I was checked on, they made polite noises, which I reciprocated, without moving, and Thai politeness meant I could stay! Flight arrived early. My neighbour on the Siem Reap flight had come from London to Bangkok via Emirates, cattle class, and she was not happy. Landed Bangkok 6pm, bags delivered 8pm! More in Cambodia thread

Caveat emptor. I've said this before , but here goes....
In this game, the buyer always takes a risk. I recall taking guys back to the hotel after enjoying all sorts of clandestine festivities and salacious hints in the bar, captivated by  their  good looks and apparent willingness. And then, even walking back along Surawong or wherever, noticing a distinct change in attitude. Less accommodating, you could say. This followed by doing the absolute basics in the room, collecting the money (once or twice even neglecting to shower)  before rushing back to the bar for assignation number two. Or three.
Even the most experienced of us cannot be sure.  As for today's market, I am certainly aware of old photos being used on- line. Inaccurate descriptions, promised activities denied and much else. Sometimes, it has to be admitted, by falangs  themselves.... or so I'm told.
And my answer is always the same. It's part of the game; live with it and  "move on" to the next guy. He may turn out to be a stunner....or even a life partner!
Punters should also remember that the guys themselves take risks. Is this kindly  falang in the photo or the bar a wannabee Hannibal Lector? will  he demand activities I don't like? will he pay what I need? or what I was promised? will he even be clean?
if you play the game, you must accept that occasionally- in my experience very rarely- you will sometimes lose or have to be satisfied with a draw.

Caveat emptor. I've said this before , but here goes....
In this game, the buyer always takes a risk. I recall taking guys back to the hotel after enjoying all sorts of clandestine festivities and salacious hints in the bar, captivated by  their  good looks and apparent willingness. And then, even walking back along Surawong or wherever, noticing a distinct change in attitude. Less accommodating, you could say. This followed by doing the absolute basics in the room, collecting the money (once or twice even neglecting to shower)  before rushing back to the bar for assignation number two. Or three.
Even the most experienced of us cannot be sure.  As for today's market, I am certainly aware of old photos being used on- line. Inaccurate descriptions, promised activities denied and much else. Sometimes, it has to be admitted, by falangs  themselves.... or so I'm told.
And my answer is always the same. It's part of the game; live with it and  "move on" to the next guy. He may turn out to be a stunner....or even a life partner!
Punters should also remember that the guys themselves take risks. Is this kindly  falang in the photo or the bar a wannabee Hannibal Lector? will  he demand activities I don't like? will he pay what I need? or what I was promised? will he even be clean?
if you play the game, you must accept that occasionally- in my experience very rarely- you will sometimes lose or have to be satisfied with a draw.

Caveat emptor. I've said this before , but here goes....
In this game, the buyer always takes a risk. I recall taking guys back to the hotel after enjoying all sorts of clandestine festivities and salacious hints in the bar, captivated by  their  good looks and apparent willingness. And then, even walking back along Surawong or wherever, noticing a distinct change in attitude. Less accommodating, you could say. This followed by doing the absolute basics in the room, collecting the money (once or twice even neglecting to shower)  before rushing back to the bar for assignation number two. Or three.
Even the most experienced of us cannot be sure.  As for today's market, I am certainly aware of old photos being used on- line. Inaccurate descriptions, promised activities denied and much else. Sometimes, it has to be admitted, by falangs  themselves.... or so I'm told.
And my answer is always the same. It's part of the game; live with it and  "move on" to the next guy. He may turn out to be a stunner....or even a life partner!
Punters should also remember that the guys themselves take risks. Is this kindly  falang in the photo or the bar a wannabee Hannibal Lector? will  he demand activities I don't like? will he pay what I need? or what I was promised? will he even be clean?
if you play the game, you must accept that occasionally- in my experience very rarely- you will sometimes lose or have to be satisfied with a draw.

Caveat emptor. I've said this before , but here goes....
In this game, the buyer always takes a risk. I recall taking guys back to the hotel after enjoying all sorts of clandestine festivities and salacious hints in the bar, captivated by  their  good looks and apparent willingness. And then, even walking back along Surawong or wherever, noticing a distinct change in attitude. Less accommodating, you could say. This followed by doing the absolute basics in the room, collecting the money (once or twice even neglecting to shower)  before rushing back to the bar for assignation number two. Or three.
Even the most experienced of us cannot be sure.  As for today's market, I am certainly aware of old photos being used on- line. Inaccurate descriptions, promised activities denied and much else. Sometimes, it has to be admitted, by falangs  themselves.... or so I'm told.
And my answer is always the same. It's part of the game; live with it and  "move on" to the next guy. He may turn out to be a stunner....or even a life partner!
Punters should also remember that the guys themselves take risks. Is this kindly  falang in the photo or the bar a wannabee Hannibal Lector? will  he demand activities I don't like? will he pay what I need? or what I was promised? will he even be clean?
if you play the game, you must accept that occasionally- in my experience very rarely- you will sometimes lose or have to be satisfied with a draw.

Caveat emptor. I've said this before , but here goes....
In this game, the buyer always takes a risk. I recall taking guys back to the hotel after enjoying all sorts of clandestine festivities and salacious hints in the bar, captivated by  their  good looks and apparent willingness. And then, even walking back along Surawong or wherever, noticing a distinct change in attitude. Less accommodating, you could say. This followed by doing the absolute basics in the room, collecting the money (once or twice even neglecting to shower)  before rushing back to the bar for assignation number two. Or three.
Even the most experienced of us cannot be sure.  As for today's market, I am certainly aware of old photos being used on- line. Inaccurate descriptions, promised activities denied and much else. Sometimes, it has to be admitted, by falangs  themselves.... or so I'm told.
And my answer is always the same. It's part of the game; live with it and  "move on" to the next guy. He may turn out to be a stunner....or even a life partner!
Punters should also remember that the guys themselves take risks. Is this kindly  falang in the photo or the bar a wannabee Hannibal Lector? will  he demand activities I don't like? will he pay what I need? or what I was promised? will he even be clean?
if you play the game, you must accept that occasionally- in my experience very rarely- you will sometimes lose or have to be satisfied with a draw.

Caveat emptor. I've said this before , but here goes....
In this game, the buyer always takes a risk. I recall taking guys back to the hotel after enjoying all sorts of clandestine festivities and salacious hints in the bar, captivated by  their  good looks and apparent willingness. And then, even walking back along Surawong or wherever, noticing a distinct change in attitude. Less accommodating, you could say. This followed by doing the absolute basics in the room, collecting the money (once or twice even neglecting to shower)  before rushing back to the bar for assignation number two. Or three.
Even the most experienced of us cannot be sure.  As for today's market, I am certainly aware of old photos being used on- line. Inaccurate descriptions, promised activities denied and much else. Sometimes, it has to be admitted, by falangs  themselves.... or so I'm told.
And my answer is always the same. It's part of the game; live with it and  "move on" to the next guy. He may turn out to be a stunner....or even a life partner!
Punters should also remember that the guys themselves take risks. Is this kindly  falang in the photo or the bar a wannabee Hannibal Lector? will  he demand activities I don't like? will he pay what I need? or what I was promised? will he even be clean?
if you play the game, you must accept that occasionally- in my experience very rarely- you will sometimes lose or have to be satisfied with a draw.

I know a lot of guys here, like just letting the guy in the hotel without asking for ID. Even when they don't ask, I have the front desk do it....just a layer of protection, because then your "guest" know we know who he really is, his "stage" name or whatever moniker is stripped away, not to mention assuring he is of age.....I do this in Brasil too.

Alas! the  lift-guy at Tarntawan, for whom I'd long had the hots, departed a few years ago when there were many staff-changes following the change of ownership. He'd been there for years and, like others, was very upset to leave. The lift is unmanned nowadays.
However, returning to the theme of the thread, I concur with the advice of others. The key is finding guys who fancy each other but are not close friends. Guys from two different bars may be a better bet.
My experience was pre-dating app; I  summoned-up the courage to achieve a long-held desire, taking a couple from Sunee who were friends at a  host bar. They lay  either side of me, each taking it in turn to pleasure me but never touched each other. It was embarrassing.
Never again.
 

I appreciate the variety on this site, just as I enjoy the variety of experiences offered by my many (eighty plus) trips to Thailand. I suspect that, were reports from bars the only content, I'd be  an occasional visitor only and not a contributor.
But they're not. We explore issues that are more applicable to the wonderful times I spend there...tourism and hotels, eating-out, travel, culture, history Including that of the gay scene, politics and the joys and tribulations of relationships with our beautiful hosts.
Regarding that final one, this is the only forum on which I can discuss my own relationship openly and without provoking rancour. And that's precious to me.